is the usa economy the worst it's ever been?

[Ajax Knucklebones]

all part of the plan..........................heh heh

You maniacs! You finally did it! Damn You! Damn you all to Hell!....Haha! God, I love that cheesy flick!

[Ajax Knucklebones]

they did it! the planet of the apes is earth! you bastards!

You maniacs! You finally did it! Damn You! Damn you all to Hell!....Haha! God, I love that cheesy flick!

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Ooo! a "replay"....And that's how great the original "Planet of the Apes" movie was...Haha!

[Morning Glory]

the problem is that companies are giving out money that they don't have and can't be paid back.

so what's the solution? the government is going to give out money that that they don't have and can't be paid back.

I guess they've never heard of inflation.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

the problem is that companies are giving out money that they don't have and can't be paid back.

so what's the solution? the government is going to give out money that that they don't have and can't be paid back.

I guess they've never heard of inflation.

Oh, no,no,no... Realistically, not the government...You.

[Fleisch]

I'm not sure, but I think I love you a little.

what do you mean??

[episode allah]

Lol, it's sortof sad to realise that what we've seen up until this point was capitalism working. I'm morbidly curious about how much damage it can do when it fails.

Capitalism is more than just a machine with an on-off switch. Capitalism is no less a robot than some great shining leviathan whose status and size are a natural reward for its honest evolution. I’m not sure that I don’t put my faith more in the mega-corporations bailing us out when the sky starts to fall than local governments or Greenpeace. Capitalism is not merely a socio-political organizing method; it is method; it’s the wheels and engine-heart of life itself.

[a_small_death]

Well we see the heart beginning to show flux and if not repaired will fail and die. The machine has not been cared for so now things are becoming chaos. How far will it spread and can we repair the machine??

[One Eyed Cat]

Nah. In other news, we just had the biggest bank failure in US history: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122238415586576687.html Gnus for the day.

[Bikerpunk]

That WAS my bank. Glad I got my cash out.

[Bacchus88]

invest into hard assets, with that money biker.... that is something that isnt effect by hardly anything. Gold, silver, ect......

[episode allah]

Well we see the heart beginning to show flux and if not repaired will fail and die. The machine has not been cared for so now things are becoming chaos. How far will it spread and can we repair the machine??

I agree that capitalism is not harnessed optimally but neither can Capitalism fail and die easily. What I’m saying is that if capitalism ever "fails", then the biological life on this planet will likely be extinct and not because capitalism has destroyed it, but because humans properly destroyed themselves through ignorance. Taking away capitalism from society is like taking away a person's libido and expecting them to still have the good sense to procreate...

[One Eyed Cat]

That WAS my bank. Glad I got my cash out.

J.P. Morgan's takeover has more than a bit of deja vu to it. It goes back to a 1907 crisis:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/...edgreenway.php

I doubt he could have got us out of this mess, but there are times when a guy like him may well best hope you have. All the men in that room, including Morgan, took a financial hit. He knew they had to and made it happen.

OEC

[Bikerpunk]

I'm seeing more parallels between this and Japan in the 90s. The "lost decade".

Same scenario. Asset bubble in real estate, starts to fall, the government steps in with historically record low interest rates, does fuck all, collapse, and then some weird fugue state where nobody can make any money. Banks hoard cash and everything stops.

Sounds familiar?

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm seeing more parallels between this and Japan in the 90s. The "lost decade".

Same scenario. Asset bubble in real estate, starts to fall, the government steps in with historically record low interest rates, does fuck all, collapse, and then some weird fugue state where nobody can make any money. Banks hoard cash and everything stops.

Sounds familiar?

It does. I have a law professor who just got back from an exchange teaching gig over there. He's fluent and has been doing it for 20 years. He sees a lot of parallels. I was trying to get him to commit to what happened when their version of the FDIC went broke. They were apparently able to recapitalize it 3 times. Beyond that, stagnation for years.

OEC

[Bikerpunk]

Stagflation.

Ah well, let's hope the other aspects of the 1970s, like big noisy cars, cheap and easy sex, and cocaine come back.

I think sex would be awesome. Might find someone else interested in it too, someday.

[Raza]

Capitalism is more than just a machine with an on-off switch. Capitalism is no less a robot than some great shining leviathan whose status and size are a natural reward for its honest evolution. I’m not sure that I don’t put my faith more in the mega-corporations bailing us out when the sky starts to fall than local governments or Greenpeace. Capitalism is not merely a socio-political organizing method; it is method; it’s the wheels and engine-heart of life itself.

No it's not. Property law (along with others enabling capitalism in smaller ways, such as contract law) is artificial, and the only quotable reason for maintaining it is because it results in a certain system of material distribution.

Free market capitalism is relatively elegant, as social and politicial ideas go, I'll give you that much - but it's not inherent.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

That WAS my bank. Glad I got my cash out.

I'm a little confused here. Another bank took them over which means as long as you were under the FDIC umbrella, you can't lose any money. Why were you glad you got your money out? See.....That's where the "panic" from the media takes you..."I'm glad I got my money out because now I'd be with another crappy big bank and except for a new name, I'd be safe all along, BUT....." If everybody didn't make a run on the bank or if they didn't, right now your money is still safe...So, why were you so glad? You just helped put a bank out of business and at the same time put alot of people out of work... to save your money which is currently safe anyway. This is not 1929 where there was no FDIC. If people would just relax for two seconds...Maybe...Just maybe they wouldn't help create the beginning of a new depression. BP, I severly apologize, but this is what starts it all down the shithole. I've said it before...If people didn't make a run on Indymac, it'd probably still be around. It's the same thing with WaMu. Did WaMu have some pretty bad things going on? Yes...But, Jesus, making an unnecessay run on a bank just expoldes the problem. Don't people understand that if they left there money there...Didn't run to take out what's insured, the money would have still been there today and insured. Has "It's a Wonderful Life." not taught us anything? As much as it's a movie from the 40's, it's the truth....When George says, "But you don't understand, you're money's not here...It's in Paul's house because we lent him the money to build him his house. Just take what you need." In Hollywood, people get to have understanding and not act with panic and they took only what they needed and the Bailey Savings and Loan stayed open. In the real world, fuck everybody else...I want my cash. Well...Whatev....You guys go bananas...Hell....Take all your money out of the banks. But, don't be surprised in the end when your living in a balsa wood created home, frying up shoes for dinner....Because, THAT most definietly will be the outcome.

[Bikerpunk]

I'm a little confused here. Another bank took them over which means as long as you were under the FDIC umbrella, you can't lose any money.

Unless FDIC, severed to pieces with a thousand cuts, dies too.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Yeah, but that isn't what happened.

Insurance is insurance. There is no insurance out there that covers everybody, truthfully, if everybody under the insurance had to make a claim. There just isn't.

If the entire US was hit with some crazy super natural disaster, all the property insurers would go under quicker than you could whistle , "Zippy-a-dee-do-da" and everybody would be stuck, who made a claim.

If this same super natural disaster happened and everybody got hurt, the medical insurers would also go under and people would not be able to pay the hospitals.

So, why does it always surprise everybody that if all the banks went under, FDIC would also go under? The truth is though that this is not the time yet to make a run on the banks. In doing so now, it just helps worsen the problem and it helps create a catalyst for a depression.

[Mr Karl]

yeah, people need to relax just a wee bit

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm a little confused here. Another bank took them over which means as long as you were under the FDIC umbrella, you can't lose any money. Why were you glad you got your money out? See.....That's where the "panic" from the media takes you..."I'm glad I got my money out because now I'd be with another crappy big bank and except for a new name, I'd be safe all along, BUT....." If everybody didn't make a run on the bank or if they didn't, right now your money is still safe...So, why were you so glad? You just helped put a bank out of business and at the same time put alot of people out of work... to save your money which is currently safe anyway. This is not 1929 where there was no FDIC. If people would just relax for two seconds...Maybe...Just maybe they wouldn't help create the beginning of a new depression. BP, I severly apologize, but this is what starts it all down the shithole. I've said it before...If people didn't make a run on Indymac, it'd probably still be around. It's the same thing with WaMu. Did WaMu have some pretty bad things going on? Yes...But, Jesus, making an unnecessay run on a bank just expoldes the problem. Don't people understand that if they left there money there...Didn't run to take out what's insured, the money would have still been there today and insured. Has "It's a Wonderful Life." not taught us anything? As much as it's a movie from the 40's, it's the truth....When George says, "But you don't understand, you're money's not here...It's in Paul's house because we lent him the money to build him his house. Just take what you need." In Hollywood, people get to have understanding and not act with panic and they took only what they needed and the Bailey Savings and Loan stayed open. In the real world, fuck everybody else...I want my cash. Well...Whatev....You guys go bananas...Hell....Take all your money out of the banks. But, don't be surprised in the end when your living in a balsa wood created home, frying up shoes for dinner....Because, THAT most definietly will be the outcome.

They made a 10 Day, 16.7 Billion $ run on WaMu.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...83_wamu27.html

I do agree with you overall though. I was talking to my mother as she was getting everything under the FDIC guarantee. I have banked at credit unions and community banks. I would not hesitate to do so again. Quite frankly, they are probably better capitalized than most majors at this point. A lot of the "runs" have been more shifting assets to get under the limit. My Grandpa handing out checks from a trust has me wondering though. He's not a man you question about money though.

OEC

[Ajax Knucklebones]

They made a 10 Day, 16.7 Billion $ run on WaMu.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...83_wamu27.html

I do agree with you overall though. I was talking to my mother as she was getting everything under the FDIC guarantee. I have banked at credit unions and community banks. I would not hesitate to do so again. Quite frankly, they are probably better capitalized than most majors at this point. A lot of the "runs" have been more shifting assets to get under the limit. My Grandpa handing out checks from a trust has me wondering though. He's not a man you question about money though.

OEC

I have no problem with people taking money from my bank to stay under the FDIC guarantee. Lately, with all this shit going on, bankers have really started to be experts on what is and is not guaranteed. If I notice a customer sitting in front of me is over the limit, I tell them. I then let them know what their options are. I have told people to get out the overage and take it to another bank. But, I also have customers that are doing silly shit like taking out all there cash and storing it in safe deposit boxes. I've let them know that if a bank gets shut down, they don't open the doors to let you get to your safe deposit box. You're still stuck without cash. So, if they are doing so to keep their funds safe, yeah...It's safe unless there's a flood or a fire, but they won't be able to get to it for awhile.

If I had a grandparent handing out checks, I wouldn't ask questions either.

[One Eyed Cat]

I have no problem with people taking money from my bank to stay under the FDIC guarantee. Lately, with all this shit going on, bankers have really started to be experts on what is and is not guaranteed. If I notice a customer sitting in front of me is over the limit, I tell them. I then let them know what their options are. I have told people to get out the overage and take it to another bank. But, I also have customers that are doing silly shit like taking out all there cash and storing it in safe deposit boxes. I've let them know that if a bank gets shut down, they don't open the doors to let you get to your safe deposit box. You're still stuck without cash. So, if they are doing so to keep their funds safe, yeah...It's safe unless there's a flood or a fire, but they won't be able to get to it for awhile.

If I had a grandparent handing out checks, I wouldn't ask questions either.

Good man. While obviously I hope your bank succeeds and prospers, it is definately honorable to inform your customers of precautionary measures that work v. sheer paranoia that doesn't.

Sounds like Wachovia is fucked. Apparently, Morgan is even allowing WaMu to keep their name for now. I would take it there is no real reason for panic there (beyond the FDIC caveat)

OEC

[Bikerpunk]

Wachovia should die in a fire, the motherfuckers. Handing out fake money to people and then giving them shit for reporting it isn't acceptable business practice.

[episode allah]

No it's not. Property law (along with others enabling capitalism in smaller ways, such as contract law) is artificial, and the only quotable reason for maintaining it is because it results in a certain system of material distribution.

Free market capitalism is relatively elegant, as social and politicial ideas go, I'll give you that much - but it's not inherent.

You have it backwards! Capitalism, by unapologetically breeding competition is evolution at its most descriptive. The only reason that capitalism tends to spend more time masturbating us than sending us out into deep space is because at any one time, human beings seem to be greatly divided in cognitive abilities. Capitalism will change; it has always changed and since unicellular organisms emerged from the abyss and atoms started to struggle in their orbits and steal from their neighbors, capitalism, in its various guises has functioned.

Capitalism is more anarchic than anarchy because it’s the natural state of play! Anarchy, communism, socialism these are the ideologies that lay down “artificial” rules! Capitalism is more democratic than most other organizing tools because it lets you be an anarchist, an atheist, a mormon or a communist. Capitalism is Culture. It seems to me that a lot of people resent capitalism because they know it allows them the space to be what they want to be; it sells them the adult diapers, the cock-piercings and the anal-plungers because capitalism doesn’t care that you’re special; in its celestial shadow you’re just another shade.

That’s not to say that the current model couldn’t do with an intravenous whollop of communism to mellow out a little (especially ideologically). I believe that tax should be proportional and unfavorable to wealthier clients and I think that corporations should always be at the mercy of government faculties but be admitted to play freely in the rules set down for them.

Being anti-capitalist to me is almost like suffering from Nietzsche’s ‘resentment’; it’s the dissatisfaction of the weak against the strong. People make the mistake of separating culture and capitalism when there is no difference! If culture sucks it's because people are stupid; all capitalism does is provide majorities with what they ask for. If you were criticizing capitalism because of its lack of kindness I'd sympathise but you especially, as a self-described anarchist and hedonist have to admit that your freedoms are fairly exorbitant. Under capitalism even the drugs you desire and the fetishes you want made public which are not already legitimately available will sooner or later be at your doorstep. Its the red flag waving mostachos, the pseudo-libertarians, the couch-critics, the hippy palm packers and fanny ticklers: these are the biggest obstacle to freedom.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

You have it backwards! Capitalism, by unapologetically breeding competition is evolution at its most descriptive. The only reason that capitalism tends to spend more time masturbating us than sending us out into deep space is because at any one time, human beings seem to be greatly divided in cognitive abilities. Capitalism will change; it has always changed and since unicellular organisms emerged from the abyss and atoms started to struggle in their orbits and steal from their neighbors, capitalism, in its various guises has functioned.

Capitalism is more anarchic than anarchy because it’s the natural state of play! Anarchy, communism, socialism these are the ideologies that lay down “artificial” rules! Capitalism is more democratic than most other organizing tools because it lets you be an anarchist, an atheist, a mormon or a communist. Capitalism is Culture. It seems to me that a lot of people resent capitalism because they know it allows them the space to be what they want to be; it sells them the adult diapers, the cock-piercings and the anal-plungers because capitalism doesn’t care that you’re special; in its celestial shadow you’re just another shade.

That’s not to say that the current model couldn’t do with an intravenous whollop of communism to mellow out a little (especially ideologically). I believe that tax should be proportional and unfavorable to wealthier clients and I think that corporations should always be at the mercy of government faculties but be admitted to play freely in the rules set down for them.

Being anti-capitalist to me is almost like suffering from Nietzsche’s ‘resentment’; it’s the dissatisfaction of the weak against the strong. People make the mistake of separating culture and capitalism when there is no difference! If culture sucks it's because people are stupid; all capitalism does is provide majorities with what they ask for. If you were criticizing capitalism because of its lack of kindness I'd sympathise but you especially, as a self-described anarchist and hedonist have to admit that your freedoms are fairly exorbitant. Under capitalism even the drugs you desire and the fetishes you want made public which are not already legitimately available will sooner or later be at your doorstep. Its the red flag waving mostachos, the pseudo-libertarians, the couch-critics, the hippy palm packers and fanny ticklers: these are the biggest obstacle to freedom.

***Its the red flag waving mostachos, the pseudo-libertarians, the couch-critics, the hippy palm packers and fanny ticklers****

I don't know if this is way off the mark here, but I was listening to a stand up comedian who said that he didn't do stand up at colleges anymore because everytime he went to do one, he was told what he was allowed and not allowed to talk about, mostly because of some material being un-pc. He said it amazed him because if any place in the United States should be into freedom of speech it would be at colleges because thats where you find the most liberal of all society....Yet....That's where he was finding those AGAINST freedoms. To him it's turning into bizarro world because liberals now scream for freedoms, but only when it suits them. Back in the 70's, the college liberals screamed for freedom for all....With no "rules" to those freedoms.