What issues matter to you?

[Raza]

I'm not sure that you were listening properly either, B. The fact that electronic makes a huge amount of new things possible isn't disproven by there being a lot of the same, the two aren't even really related. Your counter is explained simply by human nature; it says nothing about electronics as a musical tool.

I hadn't yet offered my opinion on it 'killing live music', but I'll say now - so? Music is a genre of art with a very odd presentation and distribution threshold. If I go make an article of clothing, do something cool with my makeup, decorate a barbie or paint some psychedelic picture to hang in my room - well, anyone put into the right circumstances can and will see it, and appreciate it for however much or little it is worth. But when someone is a musician, suddenly, they need a stage and an audience to even begin presenting their works? You're either a minor celebrity, or you're nothing - which leads to a lot of credit being withheld where it is due, and vice versa. It's a very difficult field to enter into, and exclusivism is never good for art.

Recorded music and recently filesharing have done a lot to help this, and electronic genres have embraced these means to make music something that anyone can get started in. Instead of demanding that you're one of an event's major shows, they put something together, put the file up somewhere public, maybe mail it to some DJs they know, and let things run their course. This way it's easy and relatively cheap to get started, and you get judged and appreciated based on the quality of your work rather than opportunities provided by where you live and whether there's accessible stages around.

Now, you can attach sentimental or aesthetic value to 'gigs' and concerts and all that rock and roll stuff and not be wrong, but this method isn't bad either. And, frankly, culture doesn't get 'killed' unless people set their sights on something they like better. It's about what instrumental music isn't doing as much as about anything electronic music is.

[lovesluka]

Animal Rights...I would have to say is the biggest for me. Close behind though would be universal acceptance of personal choice, and protection of this planet!

[Head Wreck]

civil liberties and the nanny state: in short anti-fun overopressive Labour Government and Political Correctness used to stiffle and create barriers rather than take them down

[OliX]

Yeah, well Olix... we've got whiners about that one too if I recall...

This is for BP, and olive branch... or a fig leaf... I can never remember which one's for what...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iJjkrd-R8

This video is not available in your country.

Ok?

[OliX]

Electronic music isn't killing live music. You can never exchange live bass guitar player that is mind for him self and can improvise with a bass line. Electronic is almost always lone effort while live is mostly team effort and that's what's beautiful about it.

And it's not just click, click, drag, click. That insulted me -.-
Tell me this is only click, click click http://media.putfile.com/Lonely-Walk

[Buster Friendly]

Back to the matter at hand, because we all know that I don't really give a crap about the latest non-issue that BP is bitching about...

...what issues do I care about?

I think this sums it up quite nicely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV8uEzGuvfc&eurl

[Bikerpunk]

Count me out of this discussion, I'm done with personal attacks. I know I'm not well liked, but there's no need to get personal.

[Morning Glory]

Y and olive branch... or a fig leaf... I can never remember which one's for what...

an olive branch is for peace. a fig leaf is for covering genitalia if you are a medieval priest that is offended by artistic depictions of human anatomy.

Animal Rights...I would have to say is the biggest for me. Close behind though would be universal acceptance of personal choice, and protection of this planet!

[jonny.illuminati]

Count me out of this discussion, I'm done with personal attacks. I know I'm not well liked, but there's no need to get personal.

well liked here... i expect that we will stand back to back against insurmountable odds in the future.... like some bad anti-hero movie!

[Bikerpunk]

Thanks, JI.

[Raza]

Count me out of this discussion, I'm done with personal attacks. I know I'm not well liked, but there's no need to get personal.

Neither me nor OliX have used any ad hominems since your last post. It strikes me more as if you're rather inclined to take this topic personally.

Which is in line with the 'things you care about theme', but hardly good sportsmanship in the context of the debate.

[Bikerpunk]

Neither you nor OliX have, you are correct. But you are not the total sum of the audience here.

[Raza]

Ah, I missed BF's post because it lacked a quote. Still not entirely sure whether that constitutes a personal attack though. Maybe if you squint your eyes and focus real hard on feeling victimised...

[Bikerpunk]

Or maybe you should consider "you're a pile of shit" and "you're a small man" as direct personal attacks.

Just sayin.

[Raza]

Meh, that was said before your last post on the subject, at which point you were evidently still participating. It stood to reason that anything to dissuade you from that effort should have happened since.

But sure, those are personal attacks, so you may feel validated in your delayed butthurt.

[Bikerpunk]

No, I merely clarified my position one last time. I'm not flogging a dead horse again.

You like psytrance or hardstep or whatever you call it. Knock yourself out with it, it's a free country. Sounds like you're more butthurt I won't validate your lifestyle choices.

[Rockwulf]

I love the phrase butt-hurt.

[Raza]

Hardstep? I'm fairly certain I did not call it that, but I suppose all the outside world looks fairly similar when you're peeking through a keyhole, expending the rest of your energy trying to hold the walls and ceiling of your box up around you.

But no, while I was initially somewhat disappointed at your declaration to serve me with no more entertainment, this tangent is providing a more than adequate alternative. I will admit that perhaps I've gotten to a point where people's disagreement is more assuring to me than the alternative, but I don't think I really require your input to remain convinced that the music I'm playing is, in fact, pleasant to my ears.

[Bikerpunk]

Translation: I wanted to ridicule you, and baiting you is almost as fun.

If you don't need my validation, why are you trying to draw me into a fight over this? So that I'll suddenly have this revelation and agree with you? Are you that desperate for me validating your worldview?

[Raza]

You answered your own question, but got the order of your paragraphs mixed up. Let me fix that for you.

If you don't need my validation, why are you trying to draw me into a fight over this? So that I'll suddenly have this revelation and agree with you? Are you that desperate for me validating your worldview?

I wanted to ridicule you, and baiting you is almost as fun.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

I think I might have a sandwich for dinner. Hmmm....I don't know...Maybe.

[Morning Glory]

hehe. "baiting you". makes me think of a whole different meaning.

I think I might have a sandwich for dinner. Hmmm....I don't know...Maybe.

tackling the tough issues, huh?

[Ajax Knucklebones]

My world revolves around tough issues like this. Fuck the economy, the stock market crash, terrorists, the election.....The real important topic is what am I gonna have for dinner.

[Wickedanima]

Count me out of this discussion, I'm done with personal attacks. I know I'm not well liked, but there's no need to get personal.

Piffle. I just think there is a huge streak of unjustifiable rude that seems to have hit. A few of our members are inconsistently loosing track of the line between debating an issue, and harassing someone you disagree with, then blowing them off as a non-person. I shouldn't wonder that our modern times are finally degrading everyone's good sense to the point that they are incapable of engaging in discussions.

Try not to take it too personal BP. People are just being fuckers lately.

And frankly, the electronic music thing is rough on Drummers. I think y'all are debating from two entirely different view points, one from a man-driven percussive point of view, VS an "I like Electronic Music" pov.

Drummers do have alot to worry about! IMO anyway.

OTHER PERSON: "Why don't you play an ELECTRONIC drumset? That way you don't make any noise."

SHHH! I won't tell anyone, but you should try out an Electronic kit. I've heard there's nothing much cooler than being able to play John Bonam's kit with the flick of a button. ^_^

[Mr Karl]

boonies like guelph! dude...ok you got me there BUT....Guelph has always been huge for live music.
.

yeah, that's what I meant..............guelph's legendary for it's music

[Bikerpunk]

I didn't get angry, I simply shrugged my shoulders, played and recorded "Moondance" and learned the first third of "Sleepwalk" on the guitar.

[Amelia G]

Okay, guys, I promise to add electronic vs. traditional rock instruments as an issue y'all care about. Others?

[Bikerpunk]

Symptomatic of bigger things: the whole "computers make it easier to care nothing about having any skill at anything".

Photography opened up new vistas in image making: but it also meant a whole bunch of talentless fucks took blurry pictures of vaginas and called it art. (There's also a lot of crap oil painting out there, but follow me here.)

Why have skill at singing? It's hard. A vocoder is easy. Just make sure you sing about how you're in love with the stripper and the bartender.

Graphic designer? Why hire one? You too can use Corel Draw to make utterly shitty ads.

etc.

Bigger picture: why buy nice, decent, pricey clothes? The latest cheap fall-apart but stay in a landfill forever knockoffs are at Mal - Wart.

Why buy a decent product made here so someone has a job? Sure the item is disposable, but so is our lives, etc.

[Morning Glory]

I think a big part of the issues here stems from the fact that the people who produce those digital mediums don't see it as "talentless, knock offs". It sort of goes both ways because they feel you are trying to shut them down as musicians for doing what they do, which is the same complaint that you have against them.

I think that you have valid points and it's very necessary to recognize people instead of just products. But shutting down technology not only will fail to solve the problem, but it is futile.

I see that in clubs and on the internet there is a big conflict, but among the larger music world, I dunno, I think there's enough room for the two to exist in harmony. I really don't see that fans of primarily acoustic and/ analog driven music are going to suddenly abandon ship for digital artists just because it has become easier.

We still have the debate about Cd versus vinyl, which goes to show that neither of those things are as old hat as some might think.

[Rockwulf]

I think a big part of the issues here stems from the fact that the people who produce those digital mediums don't see it as "talentless, knock offs". It sort of goes both ways because they feel you are trying to shut them down as musicians for doing what they do, which is the same complaint that you have against them.

I think that you have valid points and it's very necessary to recognize people instead of just products. But shutting down technology not only will fail to solve the problem, but it is futile.

I see that in clubs and on the internet there is a big conflict, but among the larger music world, I dunno, I think there's enough room for the two to exist in harmony. I really don't see that fans of primarily acoustic and/ analog driven music are going to suddenly abandon ship for digital artists just because it has become easier.

We still have the debate about Cd versus vinyl, which goes to show that neither of those things are as old hat as some might think.

Hey pal, stop with the logic! You're fucking up all the interwebs and their drama!

[Bikerpunk]

I think a big part of the issues here stems from the fact that the people who produce those digital mediums don't see it as "talentless, knock offs". It sort of goes both ways because they feel you are trying to shut them down as musicians for doing what they do, which is the same complaint that you have against them.

/me is drawn back in by an intelligent response.
Keep in mind I never said the digital medium is a talentless knock off - I said that a LOT of electronic music is derivative.

And that was in response to someone saying that electronic music was wonderfully freeing and made much more possible - I said the savage irony there is that so much of that potential is wasted by so much of electronic music being cookie cutter OONCE OONCE OONCE music.

OF COURSE there is awesome stuff out there. Aphex Twin does some wickedly interesting stuff, and I am a HUGE fan of Tangerine Dream. Yello have constantly reinvented themselves and their sound and gone to great lengths to do some cool stuff. influencing people right through to Front Line Assembly.

There's other genres that don't differ much from a core idea. Hair metal became self-parody in the end. Goth has some FANTASTIC music but most of it is utter crap - there's no middle ground. Great stuff or poor.

But part of the problem as I see it is that there being no requirement to have any kind of talent to produce it, BAM, anyone can be an electronic musician and it shows. Like those "build your own websites in three easy clicks" trips - you can freaking SMELL the process on the product.

And I am not saying by the above that people who make good electronic music are untalented - I'm saying that to produce the sounds requires no talent. You can't just step up to a drumset and nail a swing rhythm in perfect time and pulling off a single stroke roll takes time. Guitar shredders spend years practicing scales. The end result might be Pat Metheney or Yngwie Malmsteen e.g. unlistenable but you have to admit that said people worked at what they do.

History shows that some people will persevere in gaining a skill set even though they may be utterly untalented at producing anything of worth with it. However, most people will, given the level of practicing required to be a Brian Setzer or a Buddy Rich, will go "fuck it" when they realise early on it isn't really working and they're not that good, or their talents are best served elsewhere. Eddie Van Halen and Alex Van Halen switched instruments because Ed realised he had no real knack for drumming, and Alex preferred to hit things.

However if the entirety of the skill set required to produce music is "plug synth in, click mouse" then people WILL continue with it, because there's no reason not to. They haven't had to invest any time in practicing, scales, etc.

Now, let's revisit the original statement and response

STATEMENT: Electronics make it possible for you to do so much more
REBUTTAL: Evidence shows people take the path of least resistance and produce derivative crap (in three clicks or less you too can have a cool band!)

RE: I think that you have valid points and it's very necessary to recognize people instead of just products. But shutting down technology not only will fail to solve the problem, but it is futile.

PLEASE show me where I said shut it down. Look at ZZ Top. Old crusty biker band. Decided in the 80s to update blues to use synths, came up with a frankly catchy sound. I like "La Grange" and I like "Legs". But it doesn't mean that synths are a cure all. nor that their use PER SE will lead to more interesting music.

I see that in clubs and on the internet there is a big conflict, but among the larger music world, I dunno, I think there's enough room for the two to exist in harmony.

On the ground, though, different story.

[OliX]

We still have the debate about Cd versus vinyl, which goes to show that neither of those things are as old hat as some might think.

Vinyl it is! On the women and turntables.
For better sound and nicer touch

[OliX]

Other big issue I have is food industry and health, or more like cures for all diseases and illnesses.
Did you knew that in medical school they teach that 80% of all sickness doesn't have a cause. They say that they just happen.

Sad world it is where we live my friends. Let's change a topic if we aren't doing something about it.

[One Eyed Cat]

Uh, I also listen to electronic music.

AND

it is killing live music.

ME NOT EQUAL FULL OF SHIT

just like how Corel Draw made a bunch of talentless fucks think they were graphic designers, Synth programming has made every guy with a mohawk and the knowledge of how to program in minor thirds in 4/4 time a musician.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Electro-bands also play live if people have the desire to see them. I have some booked for November actually. Live music is not dying. It never will. You can't substitute the ambience, crowd vibe, and performance through any other means. Live music is being hurt by the hit the music industry took + the high price of touring. It's a rough go. Live music will never die though.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Issues I care about:

Family and friends are foremost. I think this hits home even more in times of uncertainty.

1. Animal welfare issues
2. Queer Rights
3. Disability Rights

I must say I am feeling a bit cynical these days (or more so I suppose). It's hard to give a fuck about much of anything sometimes. People can be such ingrates. I sometimes wonder if, in the aggregate, we deserve the hard times now due to our own folly and hubris.

OEC

[darkamor]

West is best and might is right
And with our allies - fight the good fight
A first class, five star enterprise
Now everybody's got to compromise
My moral code's on overload
Liberty still takes its toll
Take a look at the losers wasting in the bars
Where they cut their losses!

- AMERICA by KILLING JOKE

so many things to contribute here that I do not know where to begin .... but I will briefly say that I'm irritated by how this Nation has been run to the ground by another Bush Administration (traveling across America slowly seeing this place turn into something out of MAD MAX is not keen) and feel it is time for those in Congress and the House of Representative to earn their paychecks by working together in securing our Nation or start taking money from their paychecks as punishment!


~(^)~

[Ajax Knucklebones]

West is best and might is right
And with our allies - fight the good fight
A first class, five star enterprise
Now everybody's got to compromise
My moral code's on overload
Liberty still takes its toll
Take a look at the losers wasting in the bars
Where they cut their losses!

- AMERICA by KILLING JOKE

so many things to contribute here that I do not know where to begin .... but I will briefly say that I'm irritated by how this Nation has been run to the ground by another Bush Administration (traveling across America slowly seeing this place turn into something out of MAD MAX is not keen) and feel it is time for those in Congress and the House of Representative to earn their paychecks by working together in securing our Nation or start taking money from their paychecks as punishment!


~(^)~

Fuck yeah!