Sasha Grey is a Star and not a Crossover Star

[The Newswire]

Both the Hollywood movie industry press and the porn industry press have been falling all over themselves trying to explain why it is somehow a different piece of crossover news that award-winning writer/director Steven Soderbergh cast award-winning pornstar Sasha Grey in his upcoming...

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[babyswitchblade]

It'll certainly be interesting to see if Sasha can act. I hope she can.

[Morning Glory]

I beg to differ. certainly some horror movies have done well at the box office, but they haven't got the same numbers as features that are critically acclaimed (wasn't zombie strippers direct to video?). As far that making them less legit, well, I'd say that people don't really take them seriously, and they aren't supposed to. I can see where people are coming from making this claim. Soderbergh is well respected among the film community and I think that it is unfair to say that he's on the same level as a B movie feature.

As far as box office movies and porn goes, I think they are two different elements entirely and you can't really compare them.

I have never really understood the buzz about a pornstar though. maybe it's just me but I think those awards are a joke. what kind of production are they really putting on here? Best script involving a pizza guy? ya know what I mean? I think it's all just a matter of personal taste as far as what looks you like. Frankly, I haven't seen any pornstar doing anything that has never been done before and I don't really want to.

[Raza]

beg to differ. certainly some horror movies have done well at the box office, but they haven't got the same numbers as features that are critically acclaimed (wasn't zombie strippers direct to video?). As far that making them less legit, well, I'd say that people don't really take them seriously, and they aren't supposed to. I can see where people are coming from making this claim.

There's been plenty of 'serious horror' outthere that made it big; think of the gawd-knows-how-many crappy US remakes of japanese stuff that everyone is now proclaiming to be the best horror ever.

More importantly though, you can probably take any genre of film and name a few characteristics where it, on average, scores differently from the average of films in general. This doesn't really deserve to be called a point unless you can actually connect the dots and explain in a logically following manner why an arbitrarily lower average of sales, awards or seriousness in public reception makes it 'not count' towards whatever it is you're counting.

Soderbergh is well respected among the film community and I think that it is unfair to say that he's on the same level as a B movie feature.

It strikes me as fairly absurd to place films and filmmakers on 'levels' with any pretense of objectivity. Other people's respect only matters to other people; disagreeing with them and saying you value things differently is hardly 'unfair'.

[Morning Glory]

what's your point? do you even have one, other than just to argue with me that what I said can be interpreted differently.

to sum it up because it seems to be a source of confusion: most porn stars have not been in movies that have attained critical and box office success. Soderbergh film's have. So a porn star may have the opportunity to explore an avenue that they really haven't so much before. No more, no less.

I'm not trying to make a sermon about value judgments, if that is your thing, good for you. go for it.

[keiko]

*applauds*

why is that there is this stigma that all people in porn are "failed actors" that couldn't hack it in the "mainstream" hollywood and/or were tricked into performing in the "other" hollywood? like we didn't get into the biz knowing what we were doing, or we were threatened somehow into performing against their will, or we're too intoxicated to know what's actually going on. where do people get ideas like this? every single scene that is filmed is cast through an agency that specialises in casting girls for x rated roles, at least a day or three in advance, all the 2257's are in order and most of the scenes i've done, there was a live video portion of the interview or a page in the model release that required i admit i was performing under my own free will and wasn't intoxicated or threatened or in anyway made to perform these acts against my will.

who's to say that people in porn can't act? i know more than a few "musicians" who have tried acting and a few actors who have tried to break into music or fashion or the restaurant industry and failed. just because horror films kind of perpetrate the b movie stereotype with the wooden acting doesn't mean that there aren't a few in the xrated industry that can't act, or sing, or write, or dance. that's like saying that because i'm short i can't be a bartender. completely arbitrary.

... please excuse the NyQuil enhanced ranting.

~K

[Jax]

Fuck porn star actor/actress shit. Who has some serious snuff film stuff? Porn stars are just that. Nothing more, nothing less. I have a ton of real gore, but trying to find more. So Raza, you say that US films are trying to copycat Japanese gore...Id love to hear about movies that are more gore (and real) than I already have;]

Seriously though. Its pretty accepted that porn stars dont make it to the "big screen".

[ForrestBlack]

Fuck porn star actor/actress shit. Who has some serious snuff film stuff?

That would be illegal and I strongly discourage seeking that sort of thing here.

[Jax]

Lighten up, it was a joke. Excuse me.

Id still like to hear from Raza.

[Raza]

And I'll be delighted to be heard from, although a connoisseur might already know of everything I have access to.

The japanese movies facing US remakes aren't the gory ones though, they're mostly the 'scary' ones with inexplicable deaths and shit. The Ring, The Grudge, Dark Water, etc.

I've watched a fair few movies looking (among other things) for erotic gore value, but most of the time when viewin something advertised as particularly gory it doesn't really deliver in that way. Also, I'm fairly certain that none of it is real in the sense where actual people got cut up. Aside from well-known stuff like Ichi the Killer, Battle Royale and Suicide Club there's the Guinea Pig series, which is half a dozen mostly very gory films with realism ranging from pretty decent (Flower of Flesh and Blood) to absolutely ridiculous (Mermaid in a Manhole). Hum. 'Braindead' is said to be the gories movie ever, and it might be, but it wasn't realistic enough to be erotic, just a lot of fun. There's the movie Kill Bill was based on, Lady Snowblood, which starts off halfway decent but imo gets dragged out a lot - Kill Bill itself was more satisfying, especially where she mutilates that lawyer. You've got that one scene in Return of the Living Dead 3, where the hot zombie chick protagonist shows what masochism can be like when you don't need bodily functions - that's more ero guro meets goth as a personal style than gore in any remotely realistic sense, but very cool nonetheless. Erm. Blood Feast's gore is really dreadful, but it's a classic and the story is pretty hot. 'S'all that was memorable enough to spring to my mind right now, I think.

Real gore seems to be more about pictures. I suppose that's fair, considering that you'd either have to be in on the infliction or very lucky to record it happening. I keep an eye on any imageboard with a guro channel, but I find that most of the real stuff gets collected here before long, anyway. Most of what's there isn't gory so much as just disgusting, but there's a few bigger archives with some pretty nice stuff. The "Drug Dealer's Girlfriend" set is a personal favorite.


So what about you? Anything you liked well and I haven't named, I'd love to hear about.

[Raza]

Oh actually, I do remember some real stuff on video, but that was from ages ago. A series of clips called 'faces of death' I found on KaZaA when I was like, 12. My standards were pretty low back then, but I remember that among a lot of junk was some really graphic stuff from some russian/southeast european conflict where they beheaded captured soldiers with a combat knife with the camera at like, three feet distance - none of that amateur iraqi insurgent shit with bad indoor lighting and a huge camera distance. I couldn't tell you how to find it now though... maybe emule?

Also, I know there's a bunch of really explicit autopsy vids outthere, at least a few of which start out with the body of a reasonably attractive naked chick. I just don't have any saved.

[jonny.illuminati]

wow....

having personally taken life both from a distance and up close and personal... (for work)

i personally have never understood the fascination...

i have also recovered bodies that were tortured in real life, not on film...they were iraqi soldiers that worked for me and were kidnapped...

i have broken up a torture ring (insurgent) where they were actually "extracting" information from a subject when we blew the door...

i have killed for revenge... i never saw the act as anything but business...

hmmm.... have to talk with you guys more about it all...

[Amelia G]

wow....

having personally taken life both from a distance and up close and personal... (for work)

i personally have never understood the fascination...

i have also recovered bodies that were tortured in real life, not on film...they were iraqi soldiers that worked for me and were kidnapped...

i have broken up a torture ring (insurgent) where they were actually "extracting" information from a subject when we blew the door...

i have killed for revenge... i never saw the act as anything but business...

hmmm.... have to talk with you guys more about it all...

I'm guessing you have a more accurate, human, reasonable, and correct view by a factor of approximately one billion percent.

[Amelia G]

Fuck porn star actor/actress shit. Who has some serious snuff film stuff? Porn stars are just that. Nothing more, nothing less. I have a ton of real gore, but trying to find more. So Raza, you say that US films are trying to copycat Japanese gore...Id love to hear about movies that are more gore (and real) than I already have;]

Seriously though. Its pretty accepted that porn stars dont make it to the "big screen".

Well, as I just reported in Sasha Grey is a Star and not a Crossover Star, Sasha Grey appears to be making it to the big screen.

Here is a brief and very incomplete list of other women I can think of, off the top of my head, who I'm pretty sure have done what is considered porn and have also done work on pieces which are not considered porn:

Jenna Jameson (in article)
Kobe Tai (in article)
Dita Von Teese (in article)
Gauge
Tera Patrick
Tawny Kitaen
Sylvia Kristel
Cicciolina
Janine Lindenmuller
Masuimi Max
Julie Strain
Jesse Jane
Brinke Stevens
Linnea Quigley
Michelle Bauer
Traci Lords
Irina Voronina
Kasey Poteet
Marilyn Monroe

Might be a difference in semantics though, so how would you define big screen?

[karyn]

wikipedia sucks and always contains at least some inaccurate information but this is probably still a good jumping off point

List of porn stars who appeared in non-porn films:

* Ally Mac Tyana - Banlieue 13 (2004), C'est Gradiva qui vous appelle (2006)
* Amber Lynn - 52 Pick-Up (1989)
* Anastasia Blue - Blow (2001)
* Annette Haven - Body Double (1984), 10 (1979). Haven turned down a part in The Howling because of its excessive violence
* Annie Sprinkle - Wimps (1987), Young Nurses in Love (1987)
* Ashlyn Gere - X-Files 'BLOOD', Season 2 episode 3. Plays 'Bonnie McRoberts'
* Asia Carrera - The Big Lebowski (1998)
* Aurora Snow - The Rules of Attraction (2002) Superbad (2007)
* Barbara Dare (as Stacey Nix) - Evil Toons (1992)
* Brigitte Lahaie - I as in Icarus (1980), Henry & June (1990)
* Brooke Banner - Californication (2007), Episode 1.2 "Hell-A Woman"
* Candy Evans - Taking It All Off )(1987?)
* Carol Doda - Head (1968)
* Chasey Lain - Demon Knight (1995), Orgazmo (1997), He Got Game (1998)
* Desireé Cousteau - Caged Heat (1974)
* Devon - Entourage (2005), Episode I Love You Too (Entourage)
* Dolly Buster - Voll Normaaal! 1984, Hawaii Connection (Germany 1997), Marys verrücktes Krankenhaus (German TV), Die Anrheiner (German TV)
* Georgina Spelvin - Police Academy 3: Back in Training (1984)
* Gina Lynn - The Sopranos (2000), Analyze That (2002)
* Ginger Lynn - Vice Academy (1989), Young Guns II (1990) Bound and Gagged: A Love Story (1992), Whore (1991), American Pie Presents Band Camp (2005), The Devil's Rejects (2005)
* Holly Hollywood - The Rules of Attraction (2002)
* Jamie Gillis - Nighthawks (1981), Night of the Zombies (1981)
* Jamie Summers (as Denise Stafford) - Terror Night aka (Bloody Movie USA )(1987)
* Janine Lindemulder - Lauderdale (1989), Private Parts (1997)
* Jeanna Fine - Orgazmo (1997), The Boondock Saints (1999)
* Jeannie Pepper - High School High (1996), The Malibu Beach Vampires (1991)
* Jeff Stryker - Der Schwarze Fluch - Tödliche Leidenschaften (1995)
* Jenna Haze - Superbad (2007)
* Jenna Jameson - Private Parts (1997)Evil Breed: The Legend of Sam Hain (2005) Zombie Strippers (2008)
* Jennifer Welles - The Groove Tube (1974)
* Jesse Capelli - Not Another Teen Movie (2001), Van Wilder (2002)
* Jesse Jane - Entourage (2005), Episode I Love You Too (Entourage)
* Jewel De'Nyle - Pauly Shore is Dead
* Jill Kelly - He Got Game (1998)
* Juli Ashton - Orgazmo (1997)
* Karin Schubert - no porn until 1985, up to 1994 porn.
* Katie Morgan - Zack and Miri Make A Porno (2008)
* Kimberly Carson - The Jerk (1979), H.O.T.S. (1979)
* Kristine DeBell - I Wanna Hold Your Hand (1978), The Main Event (1979), Meatballs (1979)
* Kobe Tai - Very Bad Things (1998)
* Lexington Steele - Weeds (2007), Episode "He Taught Me How to Drive By" / Nip/Tuck (2007), Episode 64 Chaz Darling
* Little Cinderella (as Amber Hunter) - Boogie Nights (1997)
* Madison Stone - Evil Toons (1992)
* Marie Forså - Immoral Tales (1974)
* Marilyn Chambers - The Owl and the Pussycat (1970), Rabid (1977), Angel of H.E.A.T. (1982)
* Mary Carey - Coming Attractions (2006)
* Monique Alexander - Entourage (2005) Episode "Adios Amigos" (Entourage)
* Nautica Thorn & Anthony "Pena or Curl" Valdez - Amigos (2007)
* Nina Hartley - Boogie Nights (1997), American Dummy (2002)
* Nikki Tyler - Party of Five, episode Good Sports (1994)
* Oksana - Truands (2007)
* Paul Barresi - Perfect (film), The Wild Party (film), The Ghosts of Mars
* Paul Thomas (as Philip Toubus) - Jesus Christ Superstar (1973)
* Rebeca Linares - Homo_Erectus (film) (2007)
* Rebecca Lord - I Am a Sex Addict (2006)
* Rocco Siffredi - Romance (1999) (but some consider this film pornographic). / Anatomie de l'Enfer (2004)
* Ron Jeremy - Ghostbusters (1984), Feast (1992), The Chase (1994), Killing Zoe (1994), Meet Wally Sparks (1997), Orgazmo (1997), 54 (1998), The Boondock Saints (1999), Detroit Rock City (1999), Reindeer Games (2000), Fast Sofa (2001), The Rules of Attraction (2002), Terror Firmer (2004), Citizen Toxie: The Toxic Avenger IV (2004)),The Aristocrats (2005))
* Ryder Skye - "Sex and the City" (2008)
* Savannah (as Shannon Wilsey) - The Invisible Maniac (1990)
* Serena - The Howling (1981), 10 (1980), Hardcore (1979)
* Shane Hague - Toy Story (1998)
* Sibel Kekilli - 12 porn movies (as Dilara), then Head-On (2004); many awards for the film and for her as best actress
* Sola Aoi - Memories of Matsuko (2006)
* Summer Cummings - Boogie Nights (1997)
* Stormy Daniels - The 40 Year-Old Virgin (2005), Knocked Up (2007)
* Tabatha Cash - Rai (1995)
* Taija Rae in Sex Appeal (1986)
* Tawny Roberts - Shade (2003)
* Teagan - Entourage (2005), Episode I Love You Too (Entourage)
* Teri Weigel - Cheerleader Camp (1987), Glitch! (1988), Far From Home (1989), Savage Beach (1989), Innocent Blood (1992) Predator 2 (1990)
* Tracey Adams (as Deborah Blaisdell) - Student Affairs (1987)
* Traci Lords - Cry-Baby (1990), The Tommyknockers (1993-TV), Serial Mom (1994), Blade (1998), Zack and Miri Make A Porno (2008)
* Veronica Hart AKA Jane Hamilton - Feast (1992), Ruby (1992), Alien Intruder (1993), Bad Blood (1993), Beauty School (1993), Double Deception (1993), Boogie Nights (1997), Magnolia (1999)
* Zak Spears - The Doom Generation (1995)

[incog]

Do not forget Brandy Ledford on that list.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Well, as I just reported in Sasha Grey is a Star and not a Crossover Star, Sasha Grey appears to be making it to the big screen.

Here is a brief and very incomplete list of other women I can think of, off the top of my head, who I'm pretty sure have done what is considered porn and have also done work on pieces which are not considered porn:

Jenna Jameson (in article)
Kobe Tai (in article)
Dita Von Teese (in article)
Gauge
Tera Patrick
Tawny Kitaen
Sylvia Kristel
Cicciolina
Janine Lindenmuller
Masuimi Max
Julie Strain
Jesse Jane
Brinke Stevens
Linnea Quigley
Michelle Bauer
Traci Lords
Irina Voronina
Kasey Poteet
Marilyn Monroe

Might be a difference in semantics though, so how would you define big screen?

I, myself, would describe it as something commercial, successful, and not just playing a bit part and also not soft porn. And probably in something that you wouldn't consider "cheesy". It kind of goes...Of the girls you listed, how many average American citizens know who they are(besides Marilyn who really wasn't known for porn even know there's some films out there)? Besides, that they used to be in porn and are now "trying" to exist in non-porn roles?

I never knew Tawny did porn, btw...

I know alot of these girls, but mostly more for doing porn. I almost think that Traci had the most success doing the most "mainstream" stuff, but I also think that she got those chances only because of her "illegal" past. It was more..."I heard about this girl. She did porn when she was 15.", then "I heard about this girl. She's a great actress."

Has Dita actually ever done an "adult" movie?

[Amelia G]

I, myself, would describe it as something commercial, successful, and not just playing a bit part and also not soft porn. And probably in something that you wouldn't consider "cheesy". It kind of goes...Of the girls you listed, how many average American citizens know who they are(besides Marilyn who really wasn't known for porn even know there's some films out there)? Besides, that they used to be in porn and are now "trying" to exist in non-porn roles?

I never knew Tawny did porn, btw...

I know alot of these girls, but mostly more for doing porn. I almost think that Traci had the most success doing the most "mainstream" stuff, but I also think that she got those chances only because of her "illegal" past. It was more..."I heard about this girl. She did porn when she was 15.", then "I heard about this girl. She's a great actress."

Has Dita actually ever done an "adult" movie?

I think, at this point, we get into definitions of what counts as porn. If someone gets naked on camera for work intended to arouse the prurient interest, does that make it porn? Or is it only porn if it is distributed by Vivid or Playboy? What would you consider an adult movie?

I think the only things I ever saw Traci Lords in are Cry Baby, which was awesome, and some really wretched sci-fi thing where her acting was hideously wooden. Traci Lords, as I understand it, faked her ID to do porn from age 15 through 18, then did only one adult film after she turned 18. According to IMDB, the legal one just happened to be one she owned backend on, and then came clean about having been underage for all the others.

Allow me to add Pamela Anderson to the list. I can't believe I didn't think of her off the bat. Jenny McCarthy too.

I think Marilyn Monroe is extremely cool because, when she first started meeting with theatrical success, various scumwads tried to blackmail her with her porno past. She told them basically that she was a sex symbol and couldn't think of any reason she should care about being outed. That was, incidentally, how Playboy got to put her in their debut issue. People often mistakenly believe she posed for Playboy, but Marilyn Monroe actually posed for random smut and Playboy ended up with some of it because she refused to pay blackmail. Her life might not have turned out great, but it surely did not hurt her career. Quite the opposite.

Now that I think about it, let's add Marilyn Manson and Madonna to the list.

[One Eyed Cat]

James Dean posed naked for a few still shots. The rest is rumor and innuendo obviously. Can't really question what may have been if not what was. Dennis Hopper told an interviewer he cried the first time he saw Dean act. He was that emotionally drawn to Dean's craftsmanship at 24. So, ya never know.

OEC

[Ajax Knucklebones]

I think, at this point, we get into definitions of what counts as porn. If someone gets naked on camera for work intended to arouse the prurient interest, does that make it porn? Or is it only porn if it is distributed by Vivid or Playboy? What would you consider an adult movie?

I think the only things I ever saw Traci Lords in are Cry Baby, which was awesome, and some really wretched sci-fi thing where her acting was hideously wooden. Traci Lords, as I understand it, faked her ID to do porn from age 15 through 18, then did only one adult film after she turned 18. According to IMDB, the legal one just happened to be one she owned backend on, and then came clean about having been underage for all the others.

Allow me to add Pamela Anderson to the list. I can't believe I didn't think of her off the bat. Jenny McCarthy too.

I think Marilyn Monroe is extremely cool because, when she first started meeting with theatrical success, various scumwads tried to blackmail her with her porno past. She told them basically that she was a sex symbol and couldn't think of any reason she should care about being outed. That was, incidentally, how Playboy got to put her in their debut issue. People often mistakenly believe she posed for Playboy, but Marilyn Monroe actually posed for random smut and Playboy ended up with some of it because she refused to pay blackmail. Her life might not have turned out great, but it surely did not hurt her career. Quite the opposite.

Now that I think about it, let's add Marilyn Manson and Madonna to the list.

An adult film for me would be anything that would be considered "hardcore" porn. To me that would mean anything that would never play on say "Skinemax". I don't think posing nude would be considered hardcore unless actual "sex" was being displayed. There's been plenty of woman in mainstream movies that have posed nude. Even Cameron Diaz had some done in her past, but I think once you've crossed over to more say "x-rated" stuff, for the life of me, I really don't know any actors who were "known" for doing porn actually making a big name for themselves in mainstream movies. I'm not saying they don't have acting chops. I'm saying that I don't think mainstream Hollywood takes them as serious at that point. I'm not saying they suck at acting. I'm saying that I don't think Hollywood types ever really give them a serious chance. They're branded as "adult" film stars.

I don't think most mainstream adult stars do porn because they think this is their break into Hollywood. I think alot of them move from some bumfuck town in Oregon to Hollywood. Once they get there they realize they look like everyone else. After lots of going up for parts and striking out, they hear that you can make some money in porn. They decide to give up their dreams and make some moolah instead. Have you ever seen "Boogie Nights"? You can't tell me that directors of porn think they're making actual movies like Burt Reynold's character tried to believe. Nope. They're doing porn and making lots of money. Like anything else, it's a business.

I just think that somewhere along the lines these actresses either get tired of what they're doing or for some reason or another decide to try to live out their forgotten dreams. The problem though is I don't think those trying to make it into the mainstream understand now what obstacles they face. They realize they're famous, but with delusions of grandeur, don't realize that what they're famous for is mostly seen as "perversive" by the average American. Ginger Lynn gave it the "try". Did her best too. In the end...Back to porn she went.

[Amelia G]

An adult film for me would be anything that would be considered "hardcore" porn. To me that would mean anything that would never play on say "Skinemax". I don't think posing nude would be considered hardcore unless actual "sex" was being displayed. There's been plenty of woman in mainstream movies that have posed nude. Even Cameron Diaz had some done in her past, but I think once you've crossed over to more say "x-rated" stuff, for the life of me, I really don't know any actors who were "known" for doing porn actually making a big name for themselves in mainstream movies. I'm not saying they don't have acting chops. I'm saying that I don't think mainstream Hollywood takes them as serious at that point. I'm not saying they suck at acting. I'm saying that I don't think Hollywood types ever really give them a serious chance. They're branded as "adult" film stars.

I don't think most mainstream adult stars do porn because they think this is their break into Hollywood. I think alot of them move from some bumfuck town in Oregon to Hollywood. Once they get there they realize they look like everyone else. After lots of going up for parts and striking out, they hear that you can make some money in porn. They decide to give up their dreams and make some moolah instead. Have you ever seen "Boogie Nights"? You can't tell me that directors of porn think they're making actual movies like Burt Reynold's character tried to believe. Nope. They're doing porn and making lots of money. Like anything else, it's a business.

I just think that somewhere along the lines these actresses either get tired of what they're doing or for some reason or another decide to try to live out their forgotten dreams. The problem though is I don't think those trying to make it into the mainstream understand now what obstacles they face. They realize they're famous, but with delusions of grandeur, don't realize that what they're famous for is mostly seen as "perversive" by the average American. Ginger Lynn gave it the "try". Did her best too. In the end...Back to porn she went.

I think you should re-read what Keiko wrote. It was very insightful and to the point. The notion that all pornstars are failed wannabe Hollywood actors is just really a fallacy. Wanting to present sexuality on camera and wanting to act are totally different desires. They can coexist, but they are far from being the same thing.

Are there plenty of people who have directed absolute wretched porno dreck who believe they are auteurs directing the next Sex, Lies, and Videotape? Hell yeah.

If the actors are actually fucking in something like Basic Instinct or True Blood, does that mean those things qualify as hardcore porn? Or does good lighting and good acting make all the difference?

Almost all the softcore porn on cable is shot first as hardcore and then they make a softcore cut to distro on cable. I believe Vivid and Playboy do just about all the distro liaison for both that and hotel viewing.

But, to answer your original question, yes, Dita Von Teese has done penetrative performance on video. Does not seem to have hurt her career any. I do not know whether softcore cuts of it have been distributed on cable or not, however.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

***I think you should re-read what Keiko wrote. The notion that all pornstars are failed wannabe Hollywood actors is just really a fallacy. Wanting to present sexuality on camera and wanting to act are totally different desires. They can coexist, but they are far from being the same thing.***


Then I'm wrong but that only brings out more to a point....Are hardcore porn actresses ever really seen by mainstream America as normal actresses? If you went out on the street (maybe not L.A., but some average town) and brought up these names that you've given here (except for Marilyn) and asked the average Joe who these actresses are, how many of them would know? How many of them who do recognize the names say that they do "adult" work? Out of these names that you've given who are more famous for doing regular acting than say porn?

And as for the soft porn stuff...Yeah, I get it. I'm thinking more of say 10 years ago where someone like Shannon Tweed would be known as a soft porn actress. Not a hardcore actress who gets cut and spliced to make it to premium cable. I'm talking more of the movies that used to be made where there actually was "simulated" sex vs. actual sex that was edited to cut out the "raw" parts. Still though...Then name me any of these actresses, cut and spliced, who have made it into mainstream film?

[Morning Glory]

That list that karyn posted was really insightful. But it does back up what I (and other people) say, which is just that pornstars have rarely if ever had a starring role in a film that showcased their acting ability. I had forgotten that even Ron Jeremy was in a bunch of movies, and that only further demonstrates the point. I'm not saying that they can't do it, and it may very well be nothing more than that stigma that is holding them back.

I think that it would change a lot of people's minds if someone like Sasha is able to pull this off.

Like I said, I don't really feel like trying to categorize the definition of "porn" "celebrity" and 'crossover". I don't really care. I just base the situation on what it is, not in relation to everything/anything else.

[Amelia G]

***I think you should re-read what Keiko wrote. The notion that all pornstars are failed wannabe Hollywood actors is just really a fallacy. Wanting to present sexuality on camera and wanting to act are totally different desires. They can coexist, but they are far from being the same thing.***


Then I'm wrong but that only brings out more to a point....Are hardcore porn actresses ever really seen by mainstream America as normal actresses? If you went out on the street (maybe not L.A., but some average town) and brought up these names that you've given here (except for Marilyn) and asked the average Joe who these actresses are, how many of them would know? How many of them who do recognize the names say that they do "adult" work? Out of these names that you've given who are more famous for doing regular acting than say porn?

And as for the soft porn stuff...Yeah, I get it. I'm thinking more of say 10 years ago where someone like Shannon Tweed would be known as a soft porn actress. Not a hardcore actress who gets cut and spliced to make it to premium cable. I'm talking more of the movies that used to be made where there actually was "simulated" sex vs. actual sex that was edited to cut out the "raw" parts. Still though...Then name me any of these actresses, cut and spliced, who have made it into mainstream film?

Sometimes the general public gets so excited about the sexual aspect of someone's body of work that they are more excited about that than they are about the non-sexual portions. The fact that Ron Jeremy is more famous for porn than for his non-porn work speaks more to the public's interests than anything else, I think.

I know that, while probably most people would not see any of my work as porn, I have photographed a few hundred people naked and a few thousand people with their clothes on. But there are some people who are just sooooooooooooo excited about the more erotic work that they are somewhat blind to the non-adult work. I think that says more about them than it does about either my body of work or even which portions of my body of work are most successful.

I think the average Joe, at least the average media-aware one, knows who Pamela Anderson is, who Paris Hilton is, who Madonna is, who Dita Von Teese is, who Marilyn Manson is, etc. I've got a copy of Marilyn Manson giving a blowjob on video? Do you? I think there are a ton of entertainers like him, like Marilyn Monroe, where people don't even really think about the fact that they have done more erotic stuff either for fun or profit.

[ForrestBlack]

I think the average Joe, at least the average media-aware one, knows who Pamela Anderson is, who Paris Hilton is, who Madonna is, who Dita Von Teese is, who Marilyn Manson is, etc.

I would really like to see a more explicit rendition of Manson's wild sex scene with Rose McGowan from Jawbreaker (sans goofy facial hair as I recall.) That would be hot. And it certainly would not adversely effect my positive opinion of either of them as performers.

[One Eyed Cat]

Sometimes the general public gets so excited about the sexual aspect of someone's body of work that they are more excited about that than they are about the non-sexual portions. The fact that Ron Jeremy is more famous for porn than for his non-porn work speaks more to the public's interests than anything else, I think.

I know that, while probably most people would not see any of my work as porn, I have photographed a few hundred people naked and a few thousand people with their clothes on. But there are some people who are just sooooooooooooo excited about the more erotic work that they are somewhat blind to the non-adult work. I think that says more about them than it does about either my body of work or even which portions of my body of work are most successful.

I think the average Joe, at least the average media-aware one, knows who Pamela Anderson is, who Paris Hilton is, who Madonna is, who Dita Von Teese is, who Marilyn Manson is, etc. I've got a copy of Marilyn Manson giving a blowjob on video? Do you? I think there are a ton of entertainers like him, like Marilyn Monroe, where people don't even really think about the fact that they have done more erotic stuff either for fun or profit.

Hey! You told me our project with Manson would remain private!

OEC

[Amelia G]

Hey! You told me our project with Manson would remain private!

OEC

Seriously though, the thing is it wasn't private at all. The video was released, had a ton of press, a web site devoted to it, etc.

He appeared naked in Hustler with Blue Blood scribe and anal expert Tristan Taormino too.

But Marilyn Manson has done just a few things which people took more notice of. So most people don't even recall that stuff.

For some reason, with some performers, people really latch onto some naughty aspect of their careers and with some, they don't. I hope that a performer like Sasha Grey can get people out of the mindset where they have to discount either the porn or the non-porn work.

I mean, Bret Michaels has and ongoing music career and chicks fighting over him on VH1 and he'd getting paid for it. I saw the Bret and Pam video (well the short portion I could stand to watch) and he did NOT look like fun in bed.

[One Eyed Cat]

Seriously though, the thing is it wasn't private at all. The video was released, had a ton of press, a web site devoted to it, etc.

He appeared naked in Hustler with Blue Blood scribe and anal expert Tristan Taormino too.

But Marilyn Manson has done just a few things which people took more notice of. So most people don't even recall that stuff.

For some reason, with some performers, people really latch onto some naughty aspect of their careers and with some, they don't. I hope that a performer like Sasha Grey can get people out of the mindset where they have to discount either the porn or the non-porn work.

I mean, Bret Michaels has and ongoing music career and chicks fighting over him on VH1 and he'd getting paid for it. I saw the Bret and Pam video (well the short portion I could stand to watch) and he did NOT look like fun in bed.

It is unfair to them certainly (to be serious for a moment). I don't know who Miss Grey is, but it really would not affect my opinion of her craft as an actress. I think people build these folks up just to tear them down. It is somehow meant to belittle her. I see it happen in every aspect of entertainment these days. I have a sense of why some do it. I think the categorization of porn v. whatever complicates the unfortunate aspects of being a celebrity these days further though.

OEC

[Amelia G]

I think the categorization of porn v. whatever complicates the unfortunate aspects of being a celebrity these days further though.

OEC

That is surely the truth.

What Warhol neglected to mention was that those 15 minutes would feel like 15 millenia and be kind of unpleasant and unretractable.

[One Eyed Cat]

That is surely the truth.

What Warhol neglected to mention was that those 15 minutes would feel like 15 millenia and be kind of unpleasant and unretractable.

It's, yeah, I could go on a whole rant about that. I think the way people picture celebrity being just isn't the way it is. Spoke to a fairly well-known musician before a show, he had a lot of interesting observations. A lot of people will debase actual accomplishments due to the celebrity element. They may act unimpressed to be kitsch or hip. So, I told him: I booked this show because I love your music. You have __ in and that should be respected by anyone who works with you. I try to take the middle ground. I see a lot of silliness around me. I think it's worst for mid-level famous people. You get all the headaches without the 10 figures to basically protect yourself from all the nonsense. I can barely make jokes about a Parris Hilton now. Seeing the sausage processed even locally (and even having the local bands and ourselves knocked down on occasion) leaves me a bit cynical but still resolved to do what we love and not worry too much about a bunch of social networking site lies and local drama.

It's the best you can do. It's wrong on many levels though. I'll try to unpack this more another time. Need to observe and orient to the realities of a very new project for all of us.

OEC

PS: In touch with AM. Looking '09. Will let you know when and what we might be able to do to make it feasible for them to play more cities and get paid decently. The interest is there certainly.

[Amelia G]

It's, yeah, I could go on a whole rant about that. I think the way people picture celebrity being just isn't the way it is. Spoke to a fairly well-known musician before a show, he had a lot of interesting observations. A lot of people will debase actual accomplishments due to the celebrity element. They may act unimpressed to be kitsch or hip. So, I told him: I booked this show because I love your music. You have __ in and that should be respected by anyone who works with you. I try to take the middle ground. I see a lot of silliness around me. I think it's worst for mid-level famous people. You get all the headaches without the 10 figures to basically protect yourself from all the nonsense. I can barely make jokes about a Parris Hilton now. Seeing the sausage processed even locally (and even having the local bands and ourselves knocked down on occasion) leaves me a bit cynical but still resolved to do what we love and not worry too much about a bunch of social networking site lies and local drama.

It's the best you can do. It's wrong on many levels though. I'll try to unpack this more another time. Need to observe and orient to the realities of a very new project for all of us.

OEC

PS: In touch with AM. Looking '09. Will let you know when and what we might be able to do to make it feasible for them to play more cities and get paid decently. The interest is there certainly.

Celebrity is a yucky sausage these days. Maybe it always was, but it was once much easier to be known in a local scene in a pleasant way, without having some anonymous stranger from some random other city say mean stuff to make a person question everything.

You are so very right about the middle being the most painful. The % is very very small of somehow famous people who have the dough to truly insulate themselves from the jerky things people somehow think it is okay, either for personal entertainment or for delusional competitive business reasons, to say or do cruelly.

[Morning Glory]

I got beat up in highschool. so what?

it doesn't take a million dollar career for you to realize that people are jerks and they are going to talk shit about you, but I imagine it probably makes it a lot easier to sleep at night with the knowledge.

[One Eyed Cat]

Celebrity is a yucky sausage these days. Maybe it always was, but it was once much easier to be known in a local scene in a pleasant way, without having some anonymous stranger from some random other city say mean stuff to make a person question everything.

You are so very right about the middle being the most painful. The % is very very small of somehow famous people who have the dough to truly insulate themselves from the jerky things people somehow think it is okay, either for personal entertainment or for delusional competitive business reasons, to say or do cruelly.

Yeah, I have a hard time with how some incredibly talented (albeit niche) performers are treated. Those are the people I want to get exposure. I respect them for their accomplishments. It's tough to watch sometimes. We have to tune a lot of it out just to keep going. People don't realize how rough it is. They need and deserve support. They don't deserve to be bashed. If people don't like them, they should just attend another event. The people attacking couldn't go on stage and do their sets. What right do they have to defame them? I know I can't play the set. I'm secure with my own accomplishments though. That's the only way mutual respect develops. It's the only way society can keep functioning. We're in trouble. I won't give up on anyone, but we're having some serious sociological pathologies that transcend our FUBAR government.

You just keep going though. Let's do it for posterity if nothing else.

OEC

[Amelia G]

I got beat up in highschool. so what?

it doesn't take a million dollar career for you to realize that people are jerks and they are going to talk shit about you, but I imagine it probably makes it a lot easier to sleep at night with the knowledge.

I think a lot of OEC's point is that the majority of people with moderate celebrity have a lot of celebrity problems without the million dollars to comfort them. It's like a horrible global extension of the junior high experience. Imagine if everything you felt best about was met with the kind of hostile behavior most people stop inflicting on others by their mid-teens, but somehow feel okay doing to someone they perceive as famous? At a certain point, it gets a lot harder to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[One Eyed Cat]

I think a lot of OEC's point is that the majority of people with moderate celebrity have a lot of celebrity problems without the million dollars to comfort them. It's like a horrible global extension of the junior high experience. Imagine if everything you felt best about was met with the kind of hostile behavior most people stop inflicting on others by their mid-teens, but somehow feel okay doing to someone they perceive as famous? At a certain point, it gets a lot harder to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[Jax]

Oh actually, I do remember some real stuff on video, but that was from ages ago. A series of clips called 'faces of death' I found on KaZaA when I was like, 12. My standards were pretty low back then, but I remember that among a lot of junk was some really graphic stuff from some russian/southeast european conflict where they beheaded captured soldiers with a combat knife with the camera at like, three feet distance - none of that amateur iraqi insurgent shit with bad indoor lighting and a huge camera distance. I couldn't tell you how to find it now though... maybe emule?

Also, I know there's a bunch of really explicit autopsy vids outthere, at least a few of which start out with the body of a reasonably attractive naked chick. I just don't have any saved.

Thanks a TON for all the suggestions. I have a good friend in NY that collects gore from all over the place;] I have Traces of Death (series) and Faces of death (series) while they are cool to watch out of morbid curiosity, I like some sort of plot, haha. My fav movie so far is Cannibal Holocaust, while the animal scenes are very real, the human gore scenes are not, but you could fool people, some looks very fake and other parts I was like WTF is this real, heh.

On my list of things to get is a DVD player, haha. I have Eaten Alive, Massacre in Dinosaur Valley and Jungle Holocaust to watch. So I cant really say if they are good or not.

I pretty much love anything by Takashi Miike, but I think the two I really like are Visitor Q and Audition. Ichi The Killer was great too.

If youre interested, when my friend sends me these movies I can let you know the titles and whatnots.

[Jax]

wow....

having personally taken life both from a distance and up close and personal... (for work)

i personally have never understood the fascination...

i have also recovered bodies that were tortured in real life, not on film...they were iraqi soldiers that worked for me and were kidnapped...

i have broken up a torture ring (insurgent) where they were actually "extracting" information from a subject when we blew the door...

i have killed for revenge... i never saw the act as anything but business...

hmmm.... have to talk with you guys more about it all...

For the longest time I wanted to be a forensic photographer. I think I find the human body fascinating both living and dead. Its not so much the way someone dies, but what the body looks like after. Hard to explain;p

Now touching dead bodies is a whole nuther story. Granted I kissed my grandpa on the cheek after he passed and held his hand, but he died peacefully. Id need a full rubber bodysuit to touch anyone who was bloodied or tortured;[

[Jax]

Well, as I just reported in Sasha Grey is a Star and not a Crossover Star, Sasha Grey appears to be making it to the big screen.

Here is a brief and very incomplete list of other women I can think of, off the top of my head, who I'm pretty sure have done what is considered porn and have also done work on pieces which are not considered porn:

Jenna Jameson (in article)
Kobe Tai (in article)
Dita Von Teese (in article)
Gauge
Tera Patrick
Tawny Kitaen
Sylvia Kristel
Cicciolina
Janine Lindenmuller
Masuimi Max
Julie Strain
Jesse Jane
Brinke Stevens
Linnea Quigley
Michelle Bauer
Traci Lords
Irina Voronina
Kasey Poteet
Marilyn Monroe

Might be a difference in semantics though, so how would you define big screen?

I believe it is a difference in semantics;] Im thinking box office multi million dollar earning movies with lead or supporting roles. Thats what comes to mind when "big screen" is used;]

[Jax]

James Dean posed naked for a few still shots. The rest is rumor and innuendo obviously. Can't really question what may have been if not what was. Dennis Hopper told an interviewer he cried the first time he saw Dean act. He was that emotionally drawn to Dean's craftsmanship at 24. So, ya never know.

OEC

Oh my. I wanna see

[Amelia G]

I believe it is a difference in semantics;] Im thinking box office multi million dollar earning movies with lead or supporting roles. Thats what comes to mind when "big screen" is used;]

With that definition, even some kinda lame horror stuff counts. Even discounting horror, off the top of my head, there are the following:

Marilyn Monroe
Traci Lords
Madonna
Paris Hilton
Pamela Anderson
Sylvia Kristel
Cicciolina
Carmen Electra
Cameron Diaz
Ewan McGregor
Colin Farrell
Bruce Willis

The two areas are still different and some people who want to express sexuality on camera have no interest in faking someone else's character on camera. And some people who want to act have no interest in getting naked on camera.

I guess I think the two things are not mutually exclusive nor is one a better version of the other. They are just different. Some musicians also paint. Some don't.