Obama Won!!!

[BGartin]

lol I see. I meant in terms of the fact that I enjoy a weakened, decentralized federal government. In terms of science and most social issues, I'm liberal too. For instance, let the gays marry. Who does it harm? But, don't try and push those liberal social programs on me either, ya know.

[jonny.illuminati]

conservative...

[jonny.illuminati]

does anyone find it strange that the DOW JONES just had it's worst 2 day loss since 1987? i thought Obama winning was supposed to help and now investors are selling like crazy...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...omo&refer=home

[DoctorZ]

It seems to me that most investors are Republican, or conservative, or whatever you want to call it. Therefore, a lot of them would be scared if Obama won...

So it kind of makes sense that the stock market would go down.

[Mr Karl]

does anyone find it strange that the DOW JONES just had it's worst 2 day loss since 1987? i thought Obama winning was supposed to help and now investors are selling like crazy...

[/URL]

don't find it strange at all................................noone invests in the unpridictable

[Ubiquitress]

sad but true

[One Eyed Cat]

Why certainly they were rude, but they were dragged barely voluntarily into that metaphorical shouting contest by the established order. Rudeness under such conditions is easily forgiven.

My point is about the entire channel of government and representative democracy. I'm by no means saying that all specific causes pushed through it necessarily lack merit; just that it's the wrong approach, and that the roadblock you hit here is an example of that. I'm not condemning your efforts; this is a debate on the greater of two goods.

Fair enough. I agree with you on some levels. I'm done with political debate for quite awhile. I do appreciate your perspective though.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

Oh, OK. well I'm not sure if other people have said it on here, but others have and I agree with them on the idea that religion and civics should be entirely separate. the state should not issues marriages to anyone, they should only issue civil unions with all legal rights to any applicants, gay or straight. If you want a non-legal, spiritual connection called a marriage, or whatever, then you can get it from your priest or whomever.

that way everyone has equal legal rights and religious institutions are free to establish their own doctrine and the two don't interfere with each other. ya know separation of church and state, for a concept.

[One Eyed Cat]

The thing is, marriage is not an expression of love. It is a contract that allows for the distribution of property, the allowance of certain responsibilities in regards to your partner, certain rights regarding children ect.

All of the personal sovereignty will not protect a gay partner surviving the loss of a partner in a custody battle with uncle frank who thinks queers can't raise kids. A married surviving partner would have little trouble taking custody of the kid unless uncle frank could prove there was abuse, negligence or what have you.

I have not read prop 8 as closely as I could have, does anyone know if it prevents a civil union? The next step, even while this is working through the courts is to push that and expand the rights of civil unions. The you have a reasonable separate but equal case to tear the amendment apart with.

At least thats my take.

Domestic Partnership law in California will remain intact. It does confer most state benefits of married couples to same-sex couples. It is unfortunate this came up in 2008. Anyways, agree with a lot of with what you said vis a vis legal marriage contract. Beyond that, I'm thinking Amelia is right. Southpark time! (at least for awhile)

Take er easy

OEC

[Raza]

Oh, OK. well I'm not sure if other people have said it on here, but others have and I agree with them on the idea that religion and civics should be entirely separate. the state should not issues marriages to anyone, they should only issue civil unions with all legal rights to any applicants, gay or straight. If you want a non-legal, spiritual connection called a marriage, or whatever, then you can get it from your priest or whomever.

that way everyone has equal legal rights and religious institutions are free to establish their own doctrine and the two don't interfere with each other. ya know separation of church and state, for a concept.

I'm Raza, and I approve of this message.

(This was pretty much my position, back when I still bothered to argue what 'governments should do'. )

.

[Amelia G]

they were sent a letter that nullified their nuptials it was as if someone had divorced them without asking.in my opinion that is a worse blow to the tradition of marriage than same sex couples.it is more undermining to the " word" to reverse it over politics

That is messed up on so many levels. Did they send out the letters before they even finished counting the provisional and absentee ballots?

[Amelia G]

It depends on how you mean. You can find some fiscal conservatives on this site, but maybe not so many social conservatives. We're all a bunch of queer-lovin', devil-worshippin', porn-viewin', abortion-gettin', substance-usin', euthanasia-supportin', etcetcetc freaks here.

I think batzilla pretty much nailed it there.

I'm extremely socially liberal and I'm extremely fiscally conservative. My politics can pretty much be summed up as, everyone should be able to do whatever they please, so long as it does not actively harm others and so long as they don't try to force others to pick up the tab for it.

[DoctorZ]

Also, I just want to say that this is the longest thread I've made on this forum.

... Coincidentally, it's the thread with my shortest ever opening post.

>_>

[Buster Friendly]

does anyone find it strange that the DOW JONES just had it's worst 2 day loss since 1987? i thought Obama winning was supposed to help and now investors are selling like crazy...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...omo&refer=home

One thing does not necessarily have anything to do with the other. (Although it might.)

The economy is FUCT.

The election of one candidate over the other wasn't going to actually affect this in the long run. I do know some wall st. types who heavily supported McPain because they just couldn't stand the thought of paying taxes like they did under Clinton, but it doesn't matter they set the house of cards on fire, and liquidated the fire dept. as unnecessary.

BTW Keating 5 gave us the '87 fun house.

[Bacchus88]

oec the only thing I see now is we have to unit in common cause, both Democrat and republican. The Country has to be united and soon this division can not last..

If obama doesn't reach out with that olive branch to those who lost this go around. I do not want to see this, a have odd feeling about this. those who feel betrayed by the republican party might choice something else. I just see the Nazi party or other outlets bolstering there ranks 10 fold....Oec just weird odd feel that you get in your gut.

[BGartin]

Call me what you want, but here's my honest opinion. Both candidates were put in the election for the same reason. Those in power nominate men they know can be controlled because they want to fool the masses into thinking there is a choice. So, by voting, you are only supporting and extending the ongoing corruption. While both groups may do things just a little differently, not much will change in terms of freedom or wealth. The rich will remain rich, the powerful will remain powerful. Doesn't anyone find it a little too convenient that all of these economic hardships peaked at the exact time of election? The powerful wanted "Change" alright, but will it really be enough? The ceiling still exists.. and if you break through, you'll no doubt be bribed or forced back down. And this is coming from a member of the military, a patriot.

[ForrestBlack]

Call me what you want, but here's my honest opinion. Both candidates were put in the election for the same reason. Those in power nominate men they know can be controlled because they want to fool the masses into thinking there is a choice. So, by voting, you are only supporting and extending the ongoing corruption. While both groups may do things just a little differently, not much will change in terms of freedom or wealth. The rich will remain rich, the powerful will remain powerful. Doesn't anyone find it a little too convenient that all of these economic hardships peaked at the exact time of election? The powerful wanted "Change" alright, but will it really be enough? The ceiling still exists.. and if you break through, you'll no doubt be bribed or forced back down. And this is coming from a member of the military, a patriot.

I can't say as I'd want to elect a president that made the poor suddenly rich and the rich suddenly poor. I think me and the powers that be are both interested in a certain amount of stability and perhaps predictability. Ideally, we elect a person who will work towards good and righteous goals. I think we'd all agree that some of our leaders have been better than others on this front, so it stands to reason that the choice does matter. This country is a big ship to steer. I'd like it guided in the right direction, but someone just jerking the wheel for the sake of change would almost certainly be disastrous.

[Raza]

I dunno about that. The place you're at right now is pretty random, a mish-mash of partial perspectives selected accidentally by mindless socio-political dynamics and boasting no underlying principle or virtue in particular. It works, insofar as it does, more by effort than by competence; chances are that any other system or approach chosen the same way would do roughly as well, if the participants be proportionally willing.

[BGartin]

Any government can be successful when the people lose their values and become complacent.. We are a country at war, yet only a tiny percentage of families are actually affected. That is a big difference from World War 2 or any other conflict. Ignorance is bliss, and complacency is much easier than taking a firm stand. And, with all the people unwilling to act on opinions, how can any real change come to pass? Only with a serious crisis that is out of the government's hands, will the people rise up and take responsibility for their lives. Good example, look how many people dig themselves into debt and use credit cards and life savings to buy useless investments. If people saved money, the economy would be better off. Financial establishments would be more sure and issue more loans, and consumers would be more sure in the market and overall economy. We, as a people, must actually unite to bring change, not elect a man because of a fad. Not to insult any of you however, as I am referring to the people who voted for Obama because he was the subject of their favorite rapper's lyrics, or simply because he was the first black president. If you all believed in his ideas which were presented, I at least cannot fault that. (I know I'm rambling.. just had to vent it somewhere, and I don't talk politics or religion on duty.)

[helcyon]

I dunno about that. The place you're at right now is pretty random, a mish-mash of partial perspectives selected accidentally by mindless socio-political dynamics and boasting no underlying principle or virtue in particular. It works, insofar as it does, more by effort than by competence; chances are that any other system or approach chosen the same way would do roughly as well, if the participants be proportionally willing.

erm... you're at the what now? never mind it'll never happen... I don't think (therefore I don't am).

[helcyon]

people who voted for Obama because he was the subject of their favorite rapper's lyrics

Have you heard/seen that song by an Irish band "Nobody's as Irish as Barrack O'Bama"? I'm not going to link to it but it's a big deal on youporn (woops embarrassing slip) I mean youtube.

Now these guys are invited to play at the inauguration I hear. Damn it!! Why didn't I think of that - I'd love to soak up some free booze and canapes there

[Morning Glory]

It's those damn drugs.

[Mr Karl]

[SyntheticShock]

8 Passed.

That was bullshit, I was so pissed when I read the papers saying it passed, I saw plenty of those YES on Prop 8 signs scattered across lawns while I was in Cali, my sister and Grandma were both for it passing.

Equality damnit!