Club Attendance

[One Eyed Cat]

Can someone give me a rundown of the decline (or gain if it happened in your area) of clubs? I'm thinking "goth-industrial" primarily, but any relevant information would be pertinent. Have some bookings at a club here. Attendance in the 90s 600+ .... I've seen 30 draws here. I'm doing live shows that will pull people in, I'm more just curious. Wtf happened? I really had not been a club goer in many years. My new hobby (shows) brought me back. Fetish and burlesque would also be of interest of me. Have booked em.

How do things look where you guys are? What's your take on it?

Explain it to me like I'm an alien landing. Kinda seems that way at times haha.

OEC

[DJ Bat]

You just want me to write that journal paper huh?

Well.. maybe... but very basic summary in no particular weighted order:

The people in the older 80's/90's scene grew out of the scene due to, well, getting older - families, jobs, responsibility due to failing economy, needing to move from highly populated areas, failing livers, STD's, overdoses, etc.

By the late 90's, music became sub-standard / watered down / copied sounding and the artisians in the scene disappeared with little interest from the /new/ scene to embrace the passion of such endeavors be it designing clothing, painting, sculpture, tech, deviant but with a strict protocol sexual behavior (doms, dungeons), whatever.

The 90's scene of passion for these things was basically replaced with the 2000's apathetic scene of consumption and vanity. As long as the look and entertainment was presented pre-packaged to be purchased without any insight, that's what people would accept.

** NOW AGAIN: MOST PEOPLE - There ARE exceptions - I find them and so do you - but compared to the last scene - it's a major difference.

People in the late 90's/2000's scene are /mostly/ (meaning not all of them, but a good percentage of them) materialist based. They're not really into what the music/scene stood for as they weren't apart of the rise/oppression that made the scene in the 80's/90's. There is no reason today to really rebel or express yourself as there was back then. All that has been integrated into the mass media by the late 90's with such productions as the rise of BTVS, that 'goth' heroine look so dominant in fashion by the late 90's, oodles of vampire and bitey spooky type movies. More Hot Topics. etc...

In general, it's simply a different world today and this happens in EVERY SCENE and cycles with generations.

Sure there are pockets of folks like myself that can attempt to recreate the nostalgia and even some of the energy of that past dedication (which is one reason I liked Bar Sinister the best DJing back in 2000), but since that 'once upon a time underground scene' has been shoved into the public eye, it's become diluted and unfocused.

The WOW factor for the younger generation is not as compelling. Shit, who cares? People dress like they're going to a goth/industrial club in school or at IKEA these days - unheard of in the 90's without retaliation - THAT attitude created the stronger bond within the scene - THAT attitude of being the outcast created the heavy concentration of 600+ patrons at House of Usher and other venues in the 90's.

Today, you need to appeal to everyone as nothing really is Taboo like it used to be. This is why there's more of a need to create a venue that is on par with the ADHD equivalent of entertaining someone in today's scene. You need to have overload across the board AND make sure it's social based - No more can you just book a band that's cool in the scene and expect people to show up - you need to make sure all the fucking Twitter-heads and ******* Sluts are there representin and hauling their crew in so they can reinforce the fact that perhaps this band IS worth going to....

Of course, it never hurts to throw in gratuitous T&A - That's formula simply dates back to biblical times.

Fun world huh?

Bat

[SyntheticShock]

You should have seen the awful turn out at Imperative Reaction, it made me sad for the bands who had to play to see that so few people showed up.

[One Eyed Cat]

You just want me to write that journal paper huh?

Well.. maybe... but very basic summary in no particular weighted order:

The people in the older 80's/90's scene grew out of the scene due to, well, getting older - families, jobs, responsibility due to failing economy, needing to move from highly populated areas, failing livers, STD's, overdoses, etc.

By the late 90's, music became sub-standard / watered down / copied sounding and the artisians in the scene disappeared with little interest from the /new/ scene to embrace the passion of such endeavors be it designing clothing, painting, sculpture, tech, deviant but with a strict protocol sexual behavior (doms, dungeons), whatever.

The 90's scene of passion for these things was basically replaced with the 2000's apathetic scene of consumption and vanity. As long as the look and entertainment was presented pre-packaged to be purchased without any insight, that's what people would accept.

** NOW AGAIN: MOST PEOPLE - There ARE exceptions - I find them and so do you - but compared to the last scene - it's a major difference.

People in the late 90's/2000's scene are /mostly/ (meaning not all of them, but a good percentage of them) materialist based. They're not really into what the music/scene stood for as they weren't apart of the rise/oppression that made the scene in the 80's/90's. There is no reason today to really rebel or express yourself as there was back then. All that has been integrated into the mass media by the late 90's with such productions as the rise of BTVS, that 'goth' heroine look so dominant in fashion by the late 90's, oodles of vampire and bitey spooky type movies. More Hot Topics. etc...

In general, it's simply a different world today and this happens in EVERY SCENE and cycles with generations.

Sure there are pockets of folks like myself that can attempt to recreate the nostalgia and even some of the energy of that past dedication (which is one reason I liked Bar Sinister the best DJing back in 2000), but since that 'once upon a time underground scene' has been shoved into the public eye, it's become diluted and unfocused.

The WOW factor for the younger generation is not as compelling. Shit, who cares? People dress like they're going to a goth/industrial club in school or at IKEA these days - unheard of in the 90's without retaliation - THAT attitude created the stronger bond within the scene - THAT attitude of being the outcast created the heavy concentration of 600+ patrons at House of Usher and other venues in the 90's.

Today, you need to appeal to everyone as nothing really is Taboo like it used to be. This is why there's more of a need to create a venue that is on par with the ADHD equivalent of entertaining someone in today's scene. You need to have overload across the board AND make sure it's social based - No more can you just book a band that's cool in the scene and expect people to show up - you need to make sure all the fucking Twitter-heads and ******* Sluts are there representin and hauling their crew in so they can reinforce the fact that perhaps this band IS worth going to....

Of course, it never hurts to throw in gratuitous T&A - That's formula simply dates back to biblical times.

Fun world huh?

Bat

Yeah. I was early - mid 90s. Hell, at your club for a bit. You're hitting on why the silly question arose. I book a band, there is no organic scene for it. I'm expected to work some miracle. Stand outside First Ave! Never worked that way. Yeah a few on facebook and a few may want to suck my/ the performers' respective dicks. That brings us to 100 draw. Industrial is the worst.

Journals, come on man. I put my friends in the ground and have no clue wtf is up. Sounds about right though.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

You should have seen the awful turn out at Imperative Reaction, it made me sad for the bands who had to play to see that so few people showed up.

I just booked the place, yeah I know the draw on that one. 3/6 will rock though. A bit concerned about other shows. We'll kick those other shows ass but still ... Won't listen if they bitch though.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Bat - where are you located? I'd set u up a gig in the Bay Area when I'm back if you wanted to goof with it again. We could one-off a killer draw even now.

OEC

[DJ Bat]

Bat - where are you located? I'd set u up a gig in the Bay Area when I'm back if you wanted to goof with it again. We could one-off a killer draw even now.

OEC

I'm wayyyy south now - Near Palm Springs so Bay Area distance + school + wife + 23 mo old son = crazy hard to do much. Bar Sinister is 90+ miles away as it is...

There is this mad casino down the street from me (Morongo Casino) and I tried forever to run their venue which they tanked into the ground and is now resorting to music impersonators trying to pull them in from Palm Springs which IMHO, is a BIG mistake for that venue) - but I would love to perchance bid something like Convergence there or at least nudge someone with the time to do it there

The thing about indian casinos in California - Age limit is like 18+ unlike 21+ most everywheres else.

Fucking bay area - I miss it so much it hurts sometimes.

[DJ Bat]

OT: Amelia or Forrest, Why is the word "m-eye s-pace" blanked out?

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm wayyyy south now - Near Palm Springs so Bay Area distance + school + wife + 23 mo old son = crazy hard to do much. Bar Sinister is 90+ miles away as it is...

There is this mad casino down the street from me (Morongo Casino) and I tried forever to run their venue which they tanked into the ground and is now resorting to music impersonators trying to pull them in from Palm Springs which IMHO, is a BIG mistake for that venue) - but I would love to perchance bid something like Convergence there or at least nudge someone with the time to do it there

The thing about indian casinos in California - Age limit is like 18+ unlike 21+ most everywheres else.

Fucking bay area - I miss it so much it hurts sometimes.

I hear that. Yeah, I'd do a fest. You'd be the main DJ. I know the coffins to knock on. I can book and bill. Can get the musicians on fly-ins. Dunno when I'll *be* back, but why the fuck not? Something to do over weekend.

OEC

[Raza]

I don't know, I'm not old school enough to. I know that everyone that's been in the scene for a while thinks it used to be better; there used to be regular parties in squats, 'De Inrichting' (the asylum, roughly translated) in Amsterdam which are the golden standard for today's nostalgic comparisons; then they stopped and we got Medusa, which everyone agrees wasn't as good but still better than everything we have today; and then that stopped, too, and now no one admits to liking anything that's left.

Today whatever new, young goth-centered alternative interest we get is drawn into low-threshold cybergoth events and music. That scene is pretty big, but consists mostly of 14-18 year olds, only some 20% of which stick around for more than a season or so; and far, far fewer long enough to become contributors rather than just consumers to the subculture(s). Events focusing on less accessible facets such as 'old school goth'/80s stuff, deathrock, harder industrial/noise or dark psytrance draw far smaller and more predictable crowds.

'Fetish' is an almost entirely distinct scene, featuring mostly middle aged weekend perverts dressed in expensive but poorly fitting and unoriginal gear, resolving more around a lot of plain sex than anything living up to the genre's name and boasting ticket prices that beat the shows for obscenity. Lately though, they've been inviting goth scene DJs and letting interestingly dressed local goths (all three of us!) in for free, which has sorta helped.

deviant but with a strict protocol sexual behavior

lol

[Morning Glory]

people got tired of doing X?

[Raza]

People do that?

[Bikerpunk]

I don't go to clubs. What's the point? The music's too loud, the drinks are expensive, and I can just as easily NOT get laid at HOME.

[Raza]

I don't go to clubs. What's the point? The music's too loud, the drinks are expensive, and I can just as easily NOT get laid at HOME.

[mystoo]

There's not a huge 'club' scene in Guelph. This is a university town though so that pretty much guarantees the bars will never be empty.
There's only one bar I go to anymore and I only go on Fridays. It's my home away from home, I've been going there for an embarrassingly long time. It really hasn't changed much. Lots of new people of course but still a lot of the old crew showing up once in a while.
I used to go out every night, to all the bars when I was younger but it just gets tiresome. Especially when you look around and everyone is 20 but you!
I much prefer a nice patio summertime. Hmm...maybe I am getting old?

[Buster Friendly]

I don't go to clubs. What's the point? The music's too loud, the drinks are expensive, and I can just as easily NOT get laid at HOME.

Oh BP you little ray of sunshine into our dark cavern of gothic gloom.


...I used to like going to goth clubs wearing my loudest hawaiian t-shirts. Everyone'd avoid me, and I'd be like "Fuckit I'm here to dance sissies."

By the time I got here to NYC in 2001 the scene seemed like it had been nuked. Unless you thought you were a vampire. Seriously I started carrying around garlic gum to offer to people. But it's still cool to go to shows for bands I like.

I go for the Music first, Ass second, and people I vaguely know third.

[Bikerpunk]

I used to go out every night, to all the bars when I was younger but it just gets tiresome. Especially when you look around and everyone is 20 but you!

The smiley that goes: "yeah, that"

[Buster Friendly]

[DJ Bat]

[Velvet-Tongue]

From my own recent experiences with trying to get an organized goth 'scene' in my town...heres what I found.

the Gothic culture is literally about 20-30 mini-cultures. The music's message seems to not matter as much now as the art fashion, culture of freedom of expression, sexual liberation etc. does.

With my project I'll have classic gothy poetry types interested, along with cyber goths, burlesque dancers, fetish models, djs, death metal folks, hot topic kids, VAMPYRREESSSSSS, people into bands like disuturbed/slipknot, rivet heads, punks, swingers, strippers, geeks, people who just love the fashon or music or art or all three.

Etc. The main draw is the sense of unity that you're different from the norm and the sharing of your eclectic interests together with people who understand.

If you want to put on a succesful show in my opinion then play a range of music that fits under the "goth umbrella". Be accepting of all and make it a fun social environment.

[Velvet-Tongue]

**but blah yeah..from what I've seen..the clubs in my state (Temple, Salvation etc) get about 60-100 people a show with more for bands. If you network good and advertise well its not that hard to get at least 80 people to come out of the woodwork for a night.

[Mr Karl]

The club I used to go to closed down last month.............there's the odd stuff here and there and the once a month fetish thing at different places, but I'm not sure if the reward would really be worth the effort in toronto.

[Amelia G]

You just want me to write that journal paper huh?

Well.. maybe... but very basic summary in no particular weighted order:

The people in the older 80's/90's scene grew out of the scene due to, well, getting older - families, jobs, responsibility due to failing economy, needing to move from highly populated areas, failing livers, STD's, overdoses, etc.

By the late 90's, music became sub-standard / watered down / copied sounding and the artisians in the scene disappeared with little interest from the /new/ scene to embrace the passion of such endeavors be it designing clothing, painting, sculpture, tech, deviant but with a strict protocol sexual behavior (doms, dungeons), whatever.

The 90's scene of passion for these things was basically replaced with the 2000's apathetic scene of consumption and vanity. As long as the look and entertainment was presented pre-packaged to be purchased without any insight, that's what people would accept.

** NOW AGAIN: MOST PEOPLE - There ARE exceptions - I find them and so do you - but compared to the last scene - it's a major difference.

People in the late 90's/2000's scene are /mostly/ (meaning not all of them, but a good percentage of them) materialist based. They're not really into what the music/scene stood for as they weren't apart of the rise/oppression that made the scene in the 80's/90's. There is no reason today to really rebel or express yourself as there was back then. All that has been integrated into the mass media by the late 90's with such productions as the rise of BTVS, that 'goth' heroine look so dominant in fashion by the late 90's, oodles of vampire and bitey spooky type movies. More Hot Topics. etc...

In general, it's simply a different world today and this happens in EVERY SCENE and cycles with generations.

Sure there are pockets of folks like myself that can attempt to recreate the nostalgia and even some of the energy of that past dedication (which is one reason I liked Bar Sinister the best DJing back in 2000), but since that 'once upon a time underground scene' has been shoved into the public eye, it's become diluted and unfocused.

The WOW factor for the younger generation is not as compelling. Shit, who cares? People dress like they're going to a goth/industrial club in school or at IKEA these days - unheard of in the 90's without retaliation - THAT attitude created the stronger bond within the scene - THAT attitude of being the outcast created the heavy concentration of 600+ patrons at House of Usher and other venues in the 90's.

Today, you need to appeal to everyone as nothing really is Taboo like it used to be. This is why there's more of a need to create a venue that is on par with the ADHD equivalent of entertaining someone in today's scene. You need to have overload across the board AND make sure it's social based - No more can you just book a band that's cool in the scene and expect people to show up - you need to make sure all the fucking Twitter-heads and ******* Sluts are there representin and hauling their crew in so they can reinforce the fact that perhaps this band IS worth going to....

Of course, it never hurts to throw in gratuitous T&A - That's formula simply dates back to biblical times.

Fun world huh?

Bat

I actually think that right now is a sucky time to be a guy at all or a chick who wants to be known for something besides her boobs. I thought I was being an activist for women being able to own their sexuality, to show that a woman could be kinky and sexy and still intelligent and educated and accomplished and interesting. Don't get me wrong. I've got great tits, but I just never wanted that to be the only thing someone considered in deciding whether or not I'm insightful or a good writer or interesting or whatever. Somehow ******* and the internet makes it so people just like to pretend that anyone whose cleavage they have seen enough times must be everything they would like in a person and they may turn out to the club for that, but not for an amazing band with great music, meaningful lyrics, and lots of stage presence and not for any sense of real community, etc. I'm sick to death of all the back-stabby little thieves whose excuse for everything is that they want something and whatever they want must be right and they believe anyone else would do the same scumbag selfish thing if given the opp. All the things which used to be signifiers for people I would connect with seem polluted and I don't know how to recognize my own any more. All the clothing I used to wear out on the town so other people like me would know they could connect . . . none of it feels right and I don't know what to replace it with.

Sorry. I'm feeling really ill this week and this thread struck a nerve. I'm probably being overly negative. Sometimes this stuff just makes me sad.

[Wickedanima]

I don't know if its a move, or what happened honestly...

I know the club I went to for a while was trying to serve as a that 'hole in the wall' place where they play need music, and serve booze + coffee as well as serving as the 'club'.

I had a problem because the scene is so small that I feel the DJ's have to cater to the local's tastes in music, which frequently is anti-EBM, and well... without dance music... I'm not really out there dancing. That and with the handfull of people on the floor, I feel intensely self-aware, instead of just shoving myself into a group and getting no real attention.

I think I'm older... I think I don't go as often because I don't have the stomach to deal with being ignored and snubbed while everyone wets themselves trying to get in good with my boyfriend. Tolerating other people's jabber... a LONG drive... etc.

I also think that the general area is less 'club' and cute little coffee house shit-hole oriented. The Goth scenes in Charlotte and Atlanta seem almost completely Fetish, and I wouldn't mind the show, but its definitely not me to be a part of the parade.

I'm sad to think the Goth scene is drying up like an old lady tho. Hey! I hear its still good in London, lets go there.

[DJ Bat]

I also think it has something to do with Empathy - The prior scene was loaded with it and if you think of how that would have an effect on a younger mind-set, it sort of makes sense. If you're too young to understand what empathy is, you just end up feeling like you're being worshiped or spoiled rotten instead of respected and accepted openly. Most mature people will see that and understand that - but a child will just end up accepting that that's how things should be for them - they become spoiled... fits the mold of this current scene's attitude perfectly.

Solution?

Need to start beating them up again for looking and acting the way they do till they appreciate their freedom! Worked the first time!

And this will be the thing that beats them up:



...just because it's creepy...

[Raza]

There is no reason today to really rebel or express yourself as there was back then.

The WOW factor for the younger generation is not as compelling. Shit, who cares? People dress like they're going to a goth/industrial club in school or at IKEA these days - unheard of in the 90's without retaliation - THAT attitude created the stronger bond within the scene - THAT attitude of being the outcast created the heavy concentration of 600+ patrons at House of Usher and other venues in the 90's.

Today, you need to appeal to everyone as nothing really is Taboo like it used to be.

I think there's plenty of true taboos to be broken and rules to rebel against left. Twenty years on the development of human culture as a whole is jack shit in a rusty bucket; we really haven't suddenly hit some major new mark of enlightenment and tolerance.

The problem with gaining some kind of unity out of doing this is that goths are mostly just normal people socially/intellectually/politically. Relatively progressive, maybe, but well within the mainstream spectrum. Heck, even on this very forum I've seen a handful of good old look-at-the-weirdo-in-the-media-ooh-that's-so-fucked-up circle jerks.

So in conclusion, the problem's not so much that there's nothing to rebel against, as that most goths are sucky rebels. The newest, teenage generation is actually the exception to this more than anything, because as is usual with teens any belief is candidate for upheaval, rather than just the limited and tightly controled spectrum of conceptual borderlands as you find it in adults. But then, now that goth is all about the older generations and Everyone Agrees that the teen influx isn't the real deal by comparison, they don't get much of a change to set a standard.

[DJ Bat]

Good point. Naturally younger generations will rebel against... well.. anything... it's I think one of the symptoms of puberty ... I guess in the end, what it meant for the older 'goth industrial' (or any genre) generation is different then what it means today for this generation. It's impossible to mean the same thing less we live in a really fucked place....

It's like walking into your favorite restaurant that you grew up in to find that it looks the same, mostly the same stuff on the menu but it all tastes different and the people's attitude are different cause there is a new owner and new employees. So if it's so different, why would the new owner keep the old name and decor?

I know - stupid analogy but you get the idea...

sigh... I know most of this is just the natural progression of things - it's nothing new - people are now finally dressing up like freaks if but for no other reason then to just embrace the fact freaks are mostly finally accepted on a widestream basis and that a lot of this is just that same cantankerous bitching and whining you hear 'old' people doing about the younger generation... The main difference is that the younger generation of /this/ scene seems to go out of it's way either consciously or unconsciously to dis the scene they're claiming to be a part of...

Maybe it's not their fault - maybe we're just keeping it alive by calling them goths or rivetheads... letting them in our old farts goth/industrial clubs... hoping to hold onto our past by expecting the future to remain in the past.

OH NO! We're trying to stop progress!

....DEVO was right after all...
...we are not men... ...we are devo...

[TheDeathKnight]

There will always be people, especially young people, who are drawn to the darker side. It's part of being a teenager. So the music may change, but the general vibe of the "goth" scene will still be around in some form. I think people just like to evolve, and have their own thing. One thing I hear pretty commonly from the younger kids, is that the old-school goths and "vampires" seem kind of cheesy to them. Plastic fangs, velvet capes, etc... It's hard to take that seriously. That's why they tend to gravitate towards the whole industrial/powernoise thing. It's more aggressive in sound and in fashion. Maybe it scared people's parents in the 80's, if you wore black eyeliner and nail polish. But it's moved on into tattoos, piercings, and other more extreme expressions of fashion and style. But it seems like the club scene, and the "goth" scene is still alive. It just looks and sounds a little different with each new generation. And yes, older people don't tend to go out to clubs as much as younger people. So if you are trying to promote a club, or a gig for a band, make sure it's something the younger crowd will be into. Otherwise you will have a pretty limited audience. Like in LA, if your band plays at Das Bunker, the main Industrial/Powernoise club, you can expect several hundred people to show up. But if you play at the more "old school" venue of Bar Sinister, you will have a much smaller crowd...

[DJ Bat]

One thing I hear pretty commonly from the younger kids, is that the old-school goths and "vampires" seem kind of cheesy to them. Plastic fangs, velvet capes, etc... It's hard to take that seriously. That's why they tend to gravitate towards the whole industrial/powernoise thing.

That's an oxymoron 15 years ago. We had both under one roof and it meshed beautifully. In fact, I hate clubs that are usually just one or the other as once upon a time, they weren't really. Too many cross overs. Go to an 'old school' run club and you'll hear both intertwined between the two - it's an art however.

It's more aggressive in sound and in fashion.

The most aggresive fashion nights were goth nights, bordering on fetish nights.

Like in LA, if your band plays at Das Bunker, the main Industrial/Powernoise club, you can expect several hundred people to show up. But if you play at the more "old school" venue of Bar Sinister, you will have a much smaller crowd...

Funny - I don't see Bar Sinister as being Old School at all - I see them as the perfect mixture of new and old - vendors, bands, etc - A mini Usher in my eyes and that's why I agreed to be a resident back in 2000 and would of still been till this day if I didn't leave a year later. Don't get me wrong, I love Das Bunker, hell, I played there years ago as Xorcist and yes, a powernoise band would bring them in there, but they'll bring in twice as many at Sinister as the atmosphere is simply more diverse and provides for a broader experience. IMHO

[One Eyed Cat]

I actually think that right now is a sucky time to be a guy at all or a chick who wants to be known for something besides her boobs. I thought I was being an activist for women being able to own their sexuality, to show that a woman could be kinky and sexy and still intelligent and educated and accomplished and interesting. Don't get me wrong. I've got great tits, but I just never wanted that to be the only thing someone considered in deciding whether or not I'm insightful or a good writer or interesting or whatever. Somehow ******* and the internet makes it so people just like to pretend that anyone whose cleavage they have seen enough times must be everything they would like in a person and they may turn out to the club for that, but not for an amazing band with great music, meaningful lyrics, and lots of stage presence and not for any sense of real community, etc. I'm sick to death of all the back-stabby little thieves whose excuse for everything is that they want something and whatever they want must be right and they believe anyone else would do the same scumbag selfish thing if given the opp. All the things which used to be signifiers for people I would connect with seem polluted and I don't know how to recognize my own any more. All the clothing I used to wear out on the town so other people like me would know they could connect . . . none of it feels right and I don't know what to replace it with.

Sorry. I'm feeling really ill this week and this thread struck a nerve. I'm probably being overly negative. Sometimes this stuff just makes me sad.

Kicks ain't the same. I feel like I'm being asked to create something on my own that can only be a collaborative effort.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

That's an oxymoron 15 years ago. We had both under one roof and it meshed beautifully. In fact, I hate clubs that are usually just one or the other as once upon a time, they weren't really. Too many cross overs. Go to an 'old school' run club and you'll hear both intertwined between the two - it's an art however.



The most aggresive fashion nights were goth nights, bordering on fetish nights.



Funny - I don't see Bar Sinister as being Old School at all - I see them as the perfect mixture of new and old - vendors, bands, etc - A mini Usher in my eyes and that's why I agreed to be a resident back in 2000 and would of still been till this day if I didn't leave a year later. Don't get me wrong, I love Das Bunker, hell, I played there years ago as Xorcist and yes, a powernoise band would bring them in there, but they'll bring in twice as many at Sinister as the atmosphere is simply more diverse and provides for a broader experience. IMHO

I still believe in the Usher model. Trying to get something like that going here. People can be fickle though.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

I also think it has something to do with Empathy - The prior scene was loaded with it and if you think of how that would have an effect on a younger mind-set, it sort of makes sense. If you're too young to understand what empathy is, you just end up feeling like you're being worshiped or spoiled rotten instead of respected and accepted openly. Most mature people will see that and understand that - but a child will just end up accepting that that's how things should be for them - they become spoiled... fits the mold of this current scene's attitude perfectly.

Solution?

Need to start beating them up again for looking and acting the way they do till they appreciate their freedom! Worked the first time!

And this will be the thing that beats them up:



...just because it's creepy...

Yeah. I feel like the bottomfeeders won or something. We need to kick some skulls in until they start learning some fucking respect.

OEC

[DJ Bat]

I will admit defeat in one department though which is what you've touched on OEC, proper collaboration / joint resourcing. I mean, I guess it always works better that way - there were 3 different owner groups on Usher which I think really helped. When I tried on my own, I was at that time fighting an uphill battle. Sure I had labels and bands but without multiple interaction from locals, it was just too hard to maintain.

[One Eyed Cat]

I will admit defeat in one department though which is what you've touched on OEC, proper collaboration / joint resourcing. I mean, I guess it always works better that way - there were 3 different owner groups on Usher which I think really helped. When I tried on my own, I was at that time fighting an uphill battle. Sure I had labels and bands but without multiple interaction from locals, it was just too hard to maintain.

I will keep at it. Something has to give though or I need to direct my resources elsewhere. It is already a stretch for me to be the one dealing with large groups of people (most of whom act like you say. I say silly shit like consumerism, but yeah spoiled.)

OEC

[Wickedanima]

Yeah. I feel like the bottomfeeders won or something.

Yeahhh... That. I don't think beating them up will help tho. It may be one of those... Grandparents cases. We'll just have to wait till these bottomfeeders have kids, and maybe we can whisper the coolness in their ear... and we can torture these assholes with kids who like what we do/did.

[theUnclean]

damn...I fkn miss LA LA sometimes.
Bat, I used to always hit Bar Sinister for a long fucking time man; back when it was only half the size it is now. Last time I was there was some sort of Cabaret thing; I just remember a guy all painted gold.
Haven't hit any clubs/venues up here in Seattle (yet) due to having been a corporate whore that couldn't say no to doing more work.
This whole conversation kind of makes me feel like Emo Wall. It's not like the scene is dead, it's just different. Especially with the way people tend to interact now as compared to 5+ years ago. The question is, how the fuck do you get the solid, regular draw?

[theUnclean]

Thinking out loud here....with the way social networking is, and the ease of content delivery, what about jacking in online content to an event and vice versa?
- have a hash for the event on twitter (announced at the night of the event, only to people there)
- get attendees to update their status to something like "at OEC event and your not!"
- broadcast the event live on Justin.tv and have people not attending the event record/edit and post shit right away on youtube; tweet them with the hash
- keep a complete stream of the night for edit/repost on YouTube
- somehow make sure that everyone attending gets their name/handle posted on various social networks during the event

Hashes on Twitter, when used correctly, can draw lots of traffic and attention to something. Use it with StumbleUpon and you get very good residual traffic as well.

[ForrestBlack]

Thinking out loud here....with the way social networking is, and the ease of content delivery, what about jacking in online content to an event and vice versa?
- have a hash for the event on twitter (announced at the night of the event, only to people there)
- get attendees to update their status to something like "at OEC event and your not!"
- broadcast the event live on Justin.tv and have people not attending the event record/edit and post shit right away on youtube; tweet them with the hash
- keep a complete stream of the night for edit/repost on YouTube
- somehow make sure that everyone attending gets their name/handle posted on various social networks during the event

Hashes on Twitter, when used correctly, can draw lots of traffic and attention to something. Use it with StumbleUpon and you get very good residual traffic as well.

I think that the social networking is a lot of the problem, which isn't to say that it couldn't work for something new, but I find that the more people develop their online persona, the less they are capable of being real people in real life. People don't want to really meet other new and interesting people because they are scared of having to live up to their online character. So, web 2.0 makes them in effect more shy and more standoffish and way more concerned about their fantasy celebrity issues. If you hooked it up like that, I think only a certain class of clientele would come and it wouldn't be long before they all wanted to be paid to be there like some kind of MTV beach house scenario.

[theUnclean]

I think that the social networking is a lot of the problem, which isn't to say that it couldn't work for something new, but I find that the more people develop their online persona, the less they are capable of being real people in real life. People don't want to really meet other new and interesting people because they are scared of having to live up to their online character. So, web 2.0 makes them in effect more shy and more standoffish and way more concerned about their fantasy celebrity issues. If you hooked it up like that, I think only a certain class of clientele would come and it wouldn't be long before they all wanted to be paid to be there like some kind of MTV beach house scenario.

Good point. It could end up doing nothing for the community and just draw out some of the lesser known attention whores. Similar to what happens when cable tv shows up. Suddenly everyone with a corset/leather is into the scene, if they can be in front of the camera.

I don't know tho...

[ForrestBlack]

Good point. It could end up doing nothing for the community and just draw out some of the lesser known attention whores. Similar to what happens when cable tv shows up. Suddenly everyone with a corset/leather is into the scene, if they can be in front of the camera.

I don't know tho...

I certainly know how that goes, but it won't just be the lesser knowns.

Maybe you can convince the young'ns to flash-mob in the back of your club.