Why are bands in subculture given so much extra leeway?

[Amelia G]

I don't think this was always the case. In the early days of punk, I think Vivian Westwood and Johnny Rotten were both viewed as deserving creative people. But I swear if I had a nickel for every band that wants free work from everyone around them but wants to get paid for what they do . . . well, I would have a whole lot of nickels.

Ugly Shyla made a post about this yesterday and it has been on my mind. I think I will ask her to add her perspective here as well.

[uglyshyla]

The Importance of Artist
First off let me say I'm NOT being bias to artist because I'm mailny known as a artist myself.I'm also a singer,have been in a band and love music just as much as art but.....
What annoys the hell out of me is the fact that artist are not respected as much as musicians.
No matter how talented you are with your hands people still do not see it even remotely as cool as being "in a band".
Doing events and such I see artist friend almost have to pull teeth to get guest artist slots,where the event gives you a free table and pays your way to come out.BUT the same places will gladly pay a untalented band and totally kiss their ass to do the same event.
Artist are totally underrated and we do NOT get the respect or the treatment we deserve.I'm sure at some things myself and other artist bring in just as many people to see us as some of the bands they have play.
Do we get the "rock star treatment" of course not.We have to shell out well over 100.00 for a booth and sometimes even buy tickets to get into the events because we may not even get that courtesy.
If you have amazing artistic skills it still isn't as respected as some twit that looks cute on stage and can sing off key.
People and events need to recognize that WE are just as much as a draw and should be treated as well as the bands,or it will get to where none of us come out for anything.At most events like 40% of the vendors are artist,Artist that pay like over a 100.00 a pop for a booth will not attend then the events will lose allot of business.So people need to treat people that have actually gotten off our asses and developed a skill a little bit better.
It sickens me the under appreciation of art and artistic talent nowadays.
End Rant.........

[Caligula]

I'm not so sure everybody thinks musicians are cooler than artists. I certainly don't for example. People who fawn over bands tend to be immature - either in age or attitude - and do you really want to be surrounded by those kind of people? One of the many downsides of rock stardom is that, when constantly getting ego-massage from sycophants, it takes a very strong character not to turn into an asshole.

On a pragmatic level, bands perform, while art is far less of a spectator's sport, which will effect whether people want to book you for events or not. Perhaps bands do get rather too much butt-kissing, but rather than wondering whether artists should get the same or not, I wonder whether cancer nurses, honest cops, human rights lawyers - whatever, deserve rather more kudos than they get. I think it comes down to a maturity thing again.

For sundry reasons, I've seen both sides of the coin, and can attest that fame has numerous downsides. People expect you to fulfill their expectations - you are there for their entertainment dammit! You or I have an off day and behave like an asshole, and a few apologies later we can just chalk it down to experience. Try that if you're a 'rock star' and events have been blown out of all proportion in the press and on web-sites worldwide. Witness the hard time Danzig's had because of one silly shoving match. Similarly, while many bands say they got into it to get laid, unless you're no deeper than a three week old puddle of piss, it'll start to bother you if you always have to wonder if somebody's sleeping with you because they like you, or because you know one end of a guitar from the other. Besides which, there's something inherently skanky about groupies.

So all I'd say is careful what you wish for. Respect, proper respect, is earnt. Art was a much healthier business when it was considered a craft, rather than some kind of sacred calling. I'm quite certain this doesn't apply to you Uglyshyla, but I've been out with a couple of artists/art students, and while they were both charming creatures, their arty friends were aongst the most self-important, ignorant jack asses I've ever met. And having been in the rock journalism game on and off for 15 years odd, I've met more than my share.

[nausiatingpain]

It's all about money. You don't get treated well because you don't make some record company millions of dollars. They charge you $100 for a booth because they know you will pay for it. If you're in that business to make money, I suggest you choose another profession. If you're in it for love, then good for you, I hope you have a good time. Financial success should be secondary. The "best" music doesn't necessarily sell well. My comments may sound cynical, but that's the way it is.

NP - keeping it real since 1979.

[Amelia G]

Caligula - The way that some venues seem to believe that bands will be a draw and other creative endeavors will not is a drag. For example, when Forrest and I did a Blue Blood slideshow presentation at DragonCon, we pulled in a couple thousand people. Far more than most of the bands. Of course, all of our people were guests of the convention, but I paid for my booth and had to deal with my booth being moved from being by GWAR to being by the Misfits because of some band weirdness that I didn't really follow. The Misfits and GWAR are draws, but the convention also paid some bands most people never heard of who were not the kind of draw that Blue Blood or The Misfits or GWAR is.

I'm not talking about a rockstar who really is a huge draw getting special treatment and neither is Shyla. People like that EARN what they get and they really bring something to the table.

I'm talking about bands which have moved maybe 100 CDs ever getting treated really well by certain sorts of scene festivals, while a much more popular artist who creates in a different media may get the short end of the stick.

From my perspective, Forrest and I have proven time and time again that club nights we are actively attached to sell out and that conventions we are active participants in pull more people. We are good on programming and we book our models only when they are good performers.

We are a draw before the fact and press coverage afterwards.

I made an exception to some of my own rules and for the first time ever paid to get into a convention I knew I would be a draw for. I told them that the money did not mean that much to me, but they were not allowed to use my name to promote if I had to pay. I didn't tell anyone I was going and didn't notify my mailing lists etc, but, of course, they started using my name to promote their own sales within less than 24 hours.

nausiatingpain - money is not even halfway the issue. It is about respect.

[nausiatingpain]

nausiatingpain - money is not even halfway the issue. It is about respect.

It's 100% about money. I've been to several metalfests with dozens of bands that draw as many as a few thousand people. The few headliners get paid handsomely for playing. The other bands (could be as many as 80+) have to PAY to play. Why? Because if it wasn't for the popular headliners, hardly anyone would attend and the promotors wouldn't make any money. Want to get some respect? Make money. Even big, evil record companies actually LOSE money on most of the titles they sell. The few that become hits support all the other 99% of artists that sell only a few thousand or hundred. People respect one thing in this country: the dollar. These concert promotors are not in business for fun, they are there to make money, period. BTW, if the Misfits and GWAR weren't there and you decided to hold a Blueblood convention, how many do you think would show up?

[gothmom_darlene]

Hi,
I agree with you and I will of course tell you why.
Ugly and I do alot of events where your company is at also.I have seen and talked to the people who are JUST there to meet you and Forrest.I get tired just showing them where your table is located.It really is thousands.
I have seen a beauty pagent where there would be a line for people to get in to see Amelia and Forrest and beg to win the pagent to get to do work for them because you'd use to put the winner (free of charge ) on Blueblood.I have gone back to the same pageant and it is not attended as much anymore because your company is not behind it or promoting it the people attending have told me that the only reason why they would spend their hard money on outfits is to get the chance to work with you guys or for the chance to be in BlueBlood.
I have also been to Cons where we are vending and they show up if you are there and dont attend if your not.The people that have such events should pay for you to come out because what your company is all about is a chance for some unknown ,way out in the swamp or boonies to finally get their dream fulfilled by having you put them in something that they have no access to and no matter what people say that is what youll do .You make people famous.I know because of the response Ugly got from being on your sites,Swag and being in Gothic Beauty in the Blueblood adds,which was publicity we could not buy. I would again like to thank -you guys for everything you both have done for Ugly's career.
Gothmom Darlene

QUOTE=AmeliaG]Caligula - The way that some venues seem to believe that bands will be a draw and other creative endeavors will not is a drag. For example, when Forrest and I did a Blue Blood slideshow presentation at DragonCon, we pulled in a couple thousand people. Far more than most of the bands.

[Amelia G]

nausiatingpain - Let me break it down for you. DragonCon had teensy bands they paid to have there. Blue Blood made the convention more money than those teensy bands. Of course, they paid to have The Misfits and GWAR there. That just makes sense and I never suggested otherwise.

The point is why would an unpopular band with a small draw get taken care of better than a popular artist in a different medium with a big draw?

If I had a full on Blue Blood convention, I would expect a few thousand people to come. I can sell out a small club just by promoting Blue Blood participation and having a model or two show up. I can sell out a medium-sized club just by promoting Blue Blood participation and showing up personally. I can sell out a moderately big venue just by adding some of my performers.

But my mission is not to be a promoter. I would like to more often be able to participate in events other people put on, help them promote the primary things they do and have them help me promote the primary things I do.

I have many pulls on my attention and my resources and would prefer to partner with promoters, rather than having to do their jobs too.

Then again, I used to just want to publish other photographers and picking up that job, along with writing and editing and publishing and all, has not worked out too badly

PS Thanks Gothmom Darlene. Hooking Ugly Shyla up was a pleasure because she remembered a good turn done and that made it feel worthwhile to hook her up again and again.

[Nudemuse]

I think that a lot of people view bands and musicians as very glamorous. You can actually watch the 'artist' do their 'art'. Personally (and this may be me being mean) I think it's because peoples attention spans aren't all that great anymore. You flash 'OOH LOOKIT A SHINY RAWK STAR' at them and they get all googly eyed.

Visual art doesn't usually get that kind of flash bang sort of introduction. (Which can I just say I find really annoying.) Visual art isn't as much of a big prodcuction and people don't get to watch the 'artist' do their 'art thing'.

Personally I'd much rather see people getting the props they deserve. Whether it be an even like you were talking about Amelia or a gallery opening or what have you. It really makes me mad when all the people who worked to pull off an event don't get their due respects. It's plain rude.

[Morning Glory]

I think it's because the people on blue blood look hotter than GWAR. but of course if your fetish is people dressed up in costumes like power ranger's villians, I respect that.

[nausiatingpain]

The point is why would an unpopular band with a small draw get taken care of better than a popular artist in a different medium with a big draw?

Give me an example of this again. It probably happened because the event is primarily a concert, so artists from other mediums wouldn't get as much recognition.

If I had a full on Blue Blood convention, I would expect a few thousand people to come. I can sell out a small club just by promoting Blue Blood participation and having a model or two show up. I can sell out a medium-sized club just by promoting Blue Blood participation and showing up personally. I can sell out a moderately big venue just by adding some of my performers.

In one large city, maybe. Can you tour, say, 20 cities throughout the country and have thousands show up at each event? Gwar and the Misfits can.

But my mission is not to be a promoter. I would like to more often be able to participate in events other people put on, help them promote the primary things they do and have them help me promote the primary things I do.

So what do you want, free advertising? If you want to be a "partner with promotors", than you should invest your own money to sponsor these events. You don't think Jagermeister got their name on the Jagermeister tour for free, do you?

[ForrestBlack]

Give me an example of this again. It probably happened because the event is primarily a concert, so artists from other mediums wouldn't get as much recognition.

Shyla has attended events where she brought in a lot more fans than the bands booked to play the event. The bands do not have more fans, do not have a better known name, and have not even been as financially successful as Shyla has been with her art. But, they are bands, so traditionally they get taken care of anyway. You may have different kinds of events in mind though. You'd have to check with Amelia or Shyla about what type they meant, but I think the ones in question are not Metalfests with a couple merch booths attached.

In one large city, maybe. Can you tour, say, 20 cities throughout the country and have thousands show up at each event? Gwar and the Misfits can..

These are not touring bands in question. They are no name bands with little or no proven sales record. You keep changing the level of the bands in question. If a band is in fact a big draw, they should be taken care of. If an artist in a different category is a bigger draw, they should be taken care of as well. That's not how it tends to happen lately though.

So what do you want, free advertising? If you want to be a "partner with promotors", than you should invest your own money to sponsor these events. You don't think Jagermeister got their name on the Jagermeister tour for free, do you?

You should know what someone is talking about before you attack it. We have sponsored shows, and they do well. But that's not what we want to concentrate on doing. However, if an event wants people like Shyla or people from Blue Blood or whoever else has a large following to attend and support a show, it's kind of rude to give more consideration or roll out a better red carpet for some no name band. If I'm putting up the money and I'm bringing in the talent and I'm giving the publicity, why would I need anyone else involved at all? Pretty much every event we've sponsored has sold out capacity. Every event we've run and promoted has sold out capacity. But, if I am a guest at someone else's event, I would just like to be taken care of. I don't want to have to run everything I'm involved in. If an artist like Shyla (not a sponsor) is being included in an event and they have a bigger following than perhaps the band does, they should be taken care of at least as well as the band.

[Amelia G]

Give me an example of this again. It probably happened because the event is primarily a concert, so artists from other mediums wouldn't get as much recognition.



In one large city, maybe. Can you tour, say, 20 cities throughout the country and have thousands show up at each event? Gwar and the Misfits can.



So what do you want, free advertising? If you want to be a "partner with promotors", than you should invest your own money to sponsor these events. You don't think Jagermeister got their name on the Jagermeister tour for free, do you?

Ugly Shyla and I are both talking about events built around a theme and not concerts. A concert requires at least one decent headliner band. We are talking about events which book a bunch of microscopic bands and often take better care of them than other guests who bring in more paying customers. I am not listing off the names of the puny bands because there is no point. If I thought they were worth giving extra support to, I would photograph them and interview them or hire someone else to and I would give them press. If I don't think they are worth supporting, I am hardly going to name check them in the forum on my high traffic site.

Jagermeister is a silly example because they have tons of dough but little to no ability to provide pre-event promotion or post-event press, so the main thing they would of course bring to the table is financial support.

Obviously I take money out of my own pocket to support community events and none of what I do comes free, so I'm not even going to address your statement on that.

Partnering means that both sides have to bring something to the table. My point is that Blue Blood brings a lot to the table for an event and I would like to find promoters who can bring an equal amount of what they are best at to the relationship.

[Caligula]

I think business, kudos and cash have been confused here somewhere along the line. I think it's a universal law in our culture these days that too much power is given to the bean-counters full stop. No argument. I've hit numerous brickwalls myself over the years on account of the near fatal lack of imagination - and indeed intelligence - from the guys who all too often hold the purse strings. It stinks. But to dwell on it... Well I can tell you from experience (sort of) that down that road lies madness.

Creativity is vital to the vitality of a society. But so are a whole bunch of other valuable roles in life. Our culture is dominated by pre-digested shit. In challenging that with your work you are providing a vital component in moving things in a healthier direction. Get eaten up by the 'slings and arrows' that get cast in your direction and you're on a fast track to ulcers and stress. Trust me.

In my experience, if it wasn't a fight, it wasn't a war worth starting. Treasure your achievements and prepare for the next battle. That's what I try and do, with varying success, but try and remember any of the people you respect who didn't find themselves struggling to survive against an indifferent world...