Islam - Religion of Peace

[Jax]

"you have to support Bush, or your oversensitive and liberal." Yeah, that's how it is. or how they like to make it seem. You have the right idea about the Bush administration jax, but don't beleive thier lies and play into thier game. It's all the same fucking thing. It's just the illusion of choice to pacify the american people into thinking that there vote counts. 98% of the people who make up our government officials, we don't vote for. We don't vote for the senate, congress, or the supreme court. And no matter who you vote for, it's still Big Business that controls the lobbeying power, controls the taxes, controls the graft and controls our foreign policy. You really think that all our BS in the middle east is about "terrorists" and religious jihads ( both christian and muslim)? It's about one thing: $$$ and I don't see any president in the near and distant future that's going to put a stop to that.

I dont buy into their bullshit. Thats why I had such a hard time deciding to vote or not, since the last election proved the American vote is just a waste of time. But I cant sit around and bitch, I have to know I did my best to hopefully rid this country of Bush and the bullshit he brought into office with him.

I know it isnt about terrorists or religion. I know its about the money, and thats what chaps my hide the most.

[Jax]

I agree with the sentiment but that all applies to any major country...they are evils every nation has with little government can do to stop them from occuring.

EXACTLY! That was the point I was trying to make. How anyone can sit and criticize another country for its problems, when they havent looked around their own very clearly, is just plain ignorant.

[Jax]

Jax if he wasn't put in his place already...he sure as hell is now. Though he really made it too easy...I understood where he was coming from but he let his anger overshadow his reason.

If he hadnt been so...ugh, I just cant find the right word....I defineately could have seen his point. But sitting around wasting time attacking countries its obvious he knows nothing about, didnt get him very far. It just makes me so pissed when people are so close minded.

[Morning Glory]

It's just a mockery of our so-called democracy when our choices for president are Bush and someone-who's-not-Bush. and that's really what it is.

[Morning Glory]

The person who said that the rest of the world are the one's who have to suffer for our ( America's) stupidity is really right on. It really doesn't effect me that much, Bush doesn't have the balls to drop a bomb on me, yet.

[Tequila Zaire]

If he hadnt been so...ugh, I just cant find the right word....I defineately could have seen his point. But sitting around wasting time attacking countries its obvious he knows nothing about, didnt get him very far. It just makes me so pissed when people are so close minded.

Yeah he really pissed away a great opportunity to make a good statement...but ended up buying into parinoid fear and really becoming what terrorrists often use as an excuse for their actions...he become their stereotypical enemy. That's never good since it's always the innocent and the sane who pay for their glorified madness.

After reading some of your reponses It's clear on some issues we'd be on opposite sides but I'd still hold respect for you and take time to listen and debate it...I get a bit long winded and anger fuled myself with subjects like this but I try not to let overshadow what I want to say.

Being on opposite sides is natural in topics like this...but in the case of the fella who made such close minded arguments...it's more frustration and hate than much else. That's just sad.

[Jax]

Yeah he really pissed away a great opportunity to make a good statement...but ended up buying into parinoid fear and really becoming what terrorrists often use as an excuse for their actions...he become their stereotypical enemy. That's never good since it's always the innocent and the sane who pay for their glorified madness.

After reading some of your reponses It's clear on some issues we'd be on opposite sides but I'd still hold respect for you and take time to listen and debate it...I get a bit long winded and anger fuled myself with subjects like this but I try not to let overshadow what I want to say.

Being on opposite sides is natural in topics like this...but in the case of the fella who made such close minded arguments...it's more frustration and hate than much else. That's just sad.

Well we agree on a few things;] I have many good friends who do not think as I do, and I prefer it that way. I can remin civil and discuss like civilized human beings, so long as the debate isnt close minded and hate fueled like the one we just observed.

[Tequila Zaire]

The person who said that the rest of the world are the one's who have to suffer for our ( America's) stupidity is really right on. It really doesn't effect me that much, Bush doesn't have the balls to drop a bomb on me, yet.

How exactly?

See I don't buy into that...once you get past the nationalistic idealogy and into world ecenomics and buisness you pretty much see how interconnected it all is and how "sides" to any issue are very closely related. So really the mistakes of ANY nation effect the other...not just one.

That's how world wars start in some respects...one could really argue that had it not been for fundementalist forces rising to such unquestioned power in hot bed nations like Syria, Iraq, Iran, N.Korea...the ecenomic and social landscape of the nation would be much better off.

Really no amount of praying in a mosque or church will feed the kids at the end of the day. If you look at the HARDLINE forces who cause such problems...they are like mini dictators who want control and influence in their own way with litte care for the realities of a modern world.

At the same time western nations leaving them to fend for themselves was not the best method of ensuring world peace. European colonialism is at the heart of much of the worlds drama...look at ANY hotbed of radical islam...most once had european flags rising high above them. What should have happened is much easier in hindsight...look at Algeria...France stayed when the world said leave and when they finally did...it was still a mess. Same when the British left palestine.

The world has TOO much vested in the middle east not to take a direct and forceful route like the U.S. since it's inevitable anyhow. If not this generation to fight it then the next...our world is in the ecenomic reality that he who controls the most oil controls the world economy.

It sucks...but it's true. OPEC made that VERY clear. It's sad that it came to war but western nations NEED to step in and fix the mess they helped make the Mid East...backroom deals occured in the Saddam years that has nations like France, Russia, Germany, and even China kinda pissed (They had outstanding debts after rall)...but each of those nations need to get of their fragile and rather short moral high horse and sort this mess out as well on thier ends.

It's not jsut the U.S. who wanted Iraqi oil fields...follow the paper trails long enough and through thr right channels ...you;ll be quite pissed at what you see. Everyone has their hand up the skirt so to speak...

The sick truth is much of the dirty deeds where not just done out of greed...but for those of the nations such men represent...view it as you will...but at the end of the day...

The blood spilled is on ALL our hands...sooner we lose the illusion our ideas make us saintly and "right" the sooner we can get to the task at hand and fix the situation as it needs be done.

We all live in nations where Jews and Muslim are not bombing each other into oblivion so we KNOW they CAN live together...this is true for ANY waring factions. So the truth of peace in action is there...but no one REALLY wants it yet.

It's just not profitable or useful for anyone yet. That may sound kinda mean but think about it...those who want peace seem to rail agaisnt those who help keep stability and those who keepthe stability profit off conflict...and those who cause conflict tend to do so to achieve peace in the LONG run...

It's all insane. But I hold faith we'll sort it out...some way.

[koolagh]

Very well put! If we are a civilized society, this moron OBVIOUSLY hasnt been to the prisons lately. Should I post pics of the Oklahoma bombing, mass suicide, crimes on the street, child pornography, *****, etc... to show just how 'civilized' this country is?

Give me a break.

The Oklahoma bombing was not an act of terrorism, it was retribution for the slaughter by United States forces on a group of women and children who did nothing wrong, were just in a place where they thought they could exercise their "religious freedom" that the government continually lies to us about.

[Jax]

The Oklahoma bombing was not an act of terrorism, it was retribution for the slaughter by United States forces on a group of women and children who did nothing wrong, were just in a place where they thought they could exercise their "religious freedom" that the government continually lies to us about.

How is that not an act of terrorism? So youre telling me that NONE of these acts being played out today are terrorist activities, because Im sure in their minds they all are fighting for a cause. What makes blowing some people up ok, and not others? I believe we disagree on that.

[koolagh]

Not an act of terrorism in the fact that it was not done strictly to instill a sense of terror into people. It was done simply as an ac of retribution. Please understand that I do not agree with Tim McVeigh's methods of showing his displeasure towards the government, but I can fully understand his reason for doing it. What the government did at Waco is no different (in my opinion) than having a group of soldiers charge into my front door and slaughter those around me simply for believing in something other than what is considered "normal". But I must concur with some of the opinions here that we do not belong in Iraq any longer. The US went in, found the man they were looking for, and now need to leave. The reason these atrocities are happening to our brothers, uncles, fathers, husbands and such is because they do not want us there. The "Madman" is gone, let them rebuild their government the way they see fit, they do not need us there slapping their wrists everytime they do something we see as "wrong" (ok, i am rambling now)

[Morning Glory]

I believe that the senitment expressed is that "america is untouchable" and that is rightly so, a lot of people think this belief was shattered by the attack on 9/11/01, but it just doesn't add up. 3,000 dead. pretty bad.. but not as bad as the five to ten's times the amount of people that we bombed in afghanistan. and I'm not arguing semantics, its just by the numbers. the ratio of dead americans to any other country is way low (except when it comes to domestic homicides- go figure.) That being said, when we vote in a warmonger as our commander in cheif, it's the rest of the world that's going to have to bear the blasts of our bombs and guns. and the kind of thinking that the US has an obligation to tell other people how to run their country, let alone the Right to is ridiculous. It seems pretty clear that when thes Islamic states have said "get out and we'll stop the violence" and those that have complied have been met with non-aggression, that occupation is not the answer to peace.

[BrightStar]

I dont buy into their bullshit. Thats why I had such a hard time deciding to vote or not, since the last election proved the American vote is just a waste of time.

The electoral college is who decides the president,and another group of people ,being the F.M.S., but those two groups are who decide. The popular vote does not mean anything, aside from telling who the citizens prefer.



I agree with you on all of your statements in this thread, but was just pointing that out.


On a side note to the others , Tequilla already hinted at the concentration camps that were made to contain the Asian- american citizens .

( I probably phrased those statements the wrong way, but oh well. If anybody asks, Ill clarify them.)

Anyways, *Hugs and Kisses, From BrightStar*

[Jax]

Not an act of terrorism in the fact that it was not done strictly to instill a sense of terror into people. It was done simply as an ac of retribution. Please understand that I do not agree with Tim McVeigh's methods of showing his displeasure towards the government, but I can fully understand his reason for doing it. What the government did at Waco is no different (in my opinion) than having a group of soldiers charge into my front door and slaughter those around me simply for believing in something other than what is considered "normal". But I must concur with some of the opinions here that we do not belong in Iraq any longer. The US went in, found the man they were looking for, and now need to leave. The reason these atrocities are happening to our brothers, uncles, fathers, husbands and such is because they do not want us there. The "Madman" is gone, let them rebuild their government the way they see fit, they do not need us there slapping their wrists everytime they do something we see as "wrong" (ok, i am rambling now)

Agreed fully!

[Jax]

The electoral college is who decides the president,and another group of people ,being the F.M.S., but those two groups are who decide. The popular vote does not mean anything, aside from telling who the citizens prefer.



I agree with you on all of your statements in this thread, but was just pointing that out.


On a side note to the others , Tequilla already hinted at the concentration camps that were made to contain the Asian- american citizens .

( I probably phrased those statements the wrong way, but oh well. If anybody asks, Ill clarify them.)

Anyways, *Hugs and Kisses, From BrightStar*

I think its just the fact the last election PROVED it. Lol, hell before people were arguing about how our votes DID matter, it just blew that out of the water.

[Tequila Zaire]

At the same time the Electoral College serves a purpose...dependng on the viewpoint it's either a safeguard or an easily corrupted system.

But of course it's always the loser who says that.

[Slave326667]

This response was meant for Nausiatingpain, but I never sent it for some reason... but now I am. Ah well, sending later compared to never.
Mmmkay, I'd hate to do this, because you'd probably have a reasonable standpoint if you weren't so stirred up by whatever has you so blinded to what your actually putting out through your fingers. So I'm going to be an asshole and point out particular quotes that led me to think such.

"These photos speak volumes." Sure they do, to you. A more detailed explanation would have been appropriate.
"I don't consider these "shock" photos as I found them on Yahoo news, a respected news website." I think you knew they contained a good amount of shock (as an intellectual human being such as yourself) and put them up, just for that reason, trying to bring up an interesting topic. That, you did, good job.
"Who, after viewing these photos, can argue against re-electing our president?" you seem to be a bit self-centered, not everyone thinks as you do.
"Kerry doesn't have the backbone to stand up to these pigs. He favors withdrawing from Iraq far too early. He'd rather fight the terrorists on the streets of New York than Baghdad." ...and you know this how?
"Read my last comment, genius." That was uncalled for, not polite at all.
"YES. A civilized society is more desirable than an Islamic society. If you disagree move to Saudi Arabia." Last time I checked, this was a free country, kind of the reason it was created in the first place.
"Republicans are willing to fight this war the way it has to be fought." By Republicans, you mean bush, right? Because he's not responsible for even half the decisions made in Iraq, simply the big ones (for media sparkle. [tm.]).
"The economy is rebounding anyway. Once that happens the deficits will take care of themselves." Deficits don't simply "take care of themselves" usually taxes go up, schools suffer, jobs are lost.
"Us or them, Forrest? Choose your side." That was a very narrow remark; there are no "SIDES", only separate ideals. If someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they are your immediate enemy.
"The war against terror that's been going on for the past 3 years." It's been going on for a little longer than that, only the last three years have been exciting I suppose.

I enjoyed belittling you, we'll do this another time?

[CypherZA]

Hmmmm, I have read every post that was written on this tread and must say you have had some very interesting arguments but I have an issue the statement regarding "Islam" as uncivilized... folks you need to take your heads out of your asses and take a look around... how many Islamic kiddy porn videos have you seen, how many murders and ***** and other sort of no good happen over there compared to the "civilized" western/Christian society ?

I'll tell you this if you have never been there, it is time to shit or get off the pot... you cannot judge a whole religion based on the acts of a few... anybody remember the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, and the Spanish Inquisition ?
the Christians and Catholics are exactly coming up roses either.

Anyway that me done...

PS, I am neither Islamic or Christian !

[Slave326667]

I have absolutely nothing against Islams, and I actually beleive most of them had just causes. I'm just a bit uneducated on them, thats all.

[CPRB]

okay there's so much going one here, Patraitism, Socialism, Racism...okay first of why do people fomr other countries not feel comfy about the US? first it's not the individuals, it's the ethics, a country with so much and with a image of doing the RIGHT thing does so many wrong things. as Tequila Zaire has mentioned all countries have there sad hisories, reading about them is only 1/10 of the battle. We live in age of fear. I am at times overwhelmed by this world...I know I have mentioned this before on another thread, but would we ever be talking if it wasn't for the computer? it's so unreal is some ways you see a picture of a person and there's there lil message....engaged electronically but not physically or socially. As for the war on Iraq I am oppsed to it for numerous reason whihc I could probably write as a thesis but I don't really feel like it and footnotes are a fucking bitch. The Brisitish history in the Middle Eastwas less then Glorious the had thier momenst but they were fleeting. Bush should have...but he couldn't becasue I think the man is trully illiterat read the histroy of the middle wast before he dove into this action. As for teh sqaubling and stuff it just isn't worth it. As for world democracies they are all horrible beast that have gone to far. Not single one is healthyn or happy or working the way it should.
My mom once said to me if somone wants something bad enough or to prove a point they will and when it comes to how the worlds view of the US and it's actions in the world it is so discouraging to so many $$$$$$$$$$$ to see all thi supposed wealth then so the poor and the lies. sooner or later the US was going to be attacked. I was not shocked I was surprised but not shocked when a government sticks it's finger in the worlds pie of scoial and economical policies people get hurt and the want to hurt back. Goerge Bush ahd an Oppurtunity to change teh way the US dealt with the world but instead he acted like the cowboy he is and now he's got a mess. I feel sorry for teh ENglish and Tony blair who is a complete Wanker. I aslo feel sorry for theUS that they don't have a REAL third option. It doesn't help that the US media treats the politicans with Kid gloves either. I think priveleged countries should do more to deal with internal conflict before going abroad to deal with international turmoil. It's like making statemenst about people you don't know or how peple think when your not sure who you are or how you think, innner discipline is the key to social fluidity.

[OliX]

I wasn't really going into detail about the Israel situation.
It was just an example to make my point.
I am pretty objective when it comes to that situation as well as the one in Russia.

My point is this: Israel, and Russia, take a "hard line" approach to dealing with terrorists. No mercy. They are harsh, they kill people, torture people, etc... They are not nice... And yet.... Guess what? They still have not "defeated" the terrorists. The terrorists keep murdering their people. And they are far more harsh on the terrorists than the US will ever be.

I'm not saying Israel and Russia are right or wrong. I'm not even saying the terrorists are right or wrong. Maybe they all have valid reasons to be pissed off.

My point is that if you are going to fight someone, and try to win a "war", you need to win. And that means total destruction of that country, and those people, like in WW2. Germany, Japan, etc... You beat the shit out of them, until they give up. Anyone who will not give up, is wiped out. When the war is over, there are no more rebels, etc... You win the war by totally and completely crushing and occupying the country you invade. If the people fight back against you, you destroy them. We do not have the supplies, troops, resources, or support, to "win" a war on terrorism.

Israel, and Russia, and Iraq, are good examples of that.

But if you are unwilling to destroy the enemy utterly,
then you need to come up with a plan for isolating them,
and trying to prevent attacks, etc...

I was not trying to say Israel is so cool or anything. Nor Russia.
It's just that both of them have experience in this area, and they failed.
They have not won their wars on terror.

If you look at history, the UK is a great example.
Their colonies almost all rebelled against foreign rule.
Guess who? The USA. Remeber that Revoloutionary war?
Where we did not follow the rules of war, we hid in the
bushes, and ambushed British caravans, and ran away?
Sound familiar? Sounds like a rebel insurgency to me...
And guess what? We won. Now we are trying to control
a country where the people do not want us there...

okay, i got it.... but it's still bad philosophy of yours.... destroy....
what about inocent people, youngs that still are not poisoned by parents or media..... will you destroy them just by being "diferent" (in this case religious)

[Morning Glory]

okay first of why do people from other countries not feel comfy about the US?.

because they realise what americans are too stupid too see about thier country: That we have what 200? 300 million citizens? and of those less than 5 million of them are members of the government and the military. so that means for every one of member of the government there's over 100 regular citizens. The government can't control us, it's not in thier power. It is in thier (however demented) genuis to create a propaganda system (it's called the media and tv) that makes us think otherwise, and allows us to LET them control us. The fact is "they" cannot make "us" do anything. We do it all. get a clue. The American people just willing gave billions of dollars to the government to spend on our wars in the middle east. Every single day we go to the store and buy products that are made by slaves all over the world. That's why they hate us. we are the ones that fucked it up, and allow it to stay that way out of our ignorance and selfishness.

[Jasperino]

Where's the love?
I personally don't agree with name calling (even if it IS what you think, there are more grown up ways to express it.) There has been way too much said here for me to quote so I will try to keep it short:

1. Terrorisim is centuries old but the US didn't seem to care about it until it happened to us. Israel has been warning us but we didn't listen.

2. Waging a "sensitive" war at this point is going to make us look like the no backbone, self serving country the whole world thinks we are anyway.

3. Are we really at war? Has anyone been drafted? Are we loosing hundreds of thousands of american lives everyday? Do we have manditory blackouts and are we having to conserve for the war effort? This is not WW2 . I don't think anyone on these boards including myself has lived through wartime and seen what it really does to america. My father's generation did, and they stood up and did what they had to do and goddamnit this country supported them!

4. John Kerry got one of his purple hearts because he got hit with scrapnel while sinking a derilict barge on manuvers. What a war hero. And does it really make sense to call Bush a war monger and vote for Kerry because he's a "war hero"?

5, Bush has dental records that show he was on a military base getting dental work done at the time that he was supposedly "AWOL".

6. Vote for who you will but respect others' convictions and beliefs please.

I guess I wasn't short, sorry

[TheDeathKnight]

okay, i got it.... but it's still bad philosophy of yours.... destroy....
what about inocent people, youngs that still are not poisoned by parents or media..... will you destroy them just by being "diferent" (in this case religious)

Nope. My belief is that we should target only the terrorists directly.
And perhaps punish governments, if they continure to support them.

Example: The Taliban. If they want to go off in the desert, and live like it is 1000 years ago, fine...
If they like it, and they want it that way, then fine. Let them be...

I don't think it's strange that the Iraqi's want us out of their country.

I say we keep to ourselves, and keep out own country secure.

Keep the terrorists out, and punish any that we find, or catch.
But we should stay out of other places in the world, where our
presence is not wanted, and where democracy and christianity
is not wanted...

My point about total destruction, is that is the only way to totally
win a war. I do *not* think we should be at war. Because we do not
have the balls to destroy completely, and win. I think we will have
to retreat very soon, with our tail between our legs, because we lost.
We did not defeat the insurgents. They defeated us. And they will
probably defeat the new government there, and Iraq will probably
become a conservative Islamic country like Iran. Because that is
what a majority of Iraqis want. But fine... If that is what they
want, fine. If they want warlords, and civil war, then fine...
Not our business to try to force democracy on people.

All we should do, is tell any country, that if they let terrorists
bomb the US, or if they train them, or fund them, we will
bomb the shit out of them, until they learn to keep their
fanatical religious nuts under control. And we should continue
to strike against terrorists when we find out where they are.
And do not appologize. If you stay to yourself, and just be
religious, and peaceful, and keep out of the US, then we
will leave you alone. But if you are plotting terrorism,
we will kill you without a second thought...

[OliX]

that's good point TheDeathKnight.... I say same, will be nice to see whole world fighting against terror... If this what hapened in Russia don't get us united then fuck it all... we are wasted then....