Islamic Fundamentalism - Can they be appeased?

[One Eyed Cat]

I believe Ireland should encompass the entire island. Terrorism is ultimately just a tactic.

OEC

[Tequila Zaire]

you said "it's not exactly a country too far out of it's own terrorrist filled past eh"

If you were following the peace process in Ireland at all you would realise that the statement is completely nonsense.

Bush was in southern Ireland. That is why I was talking about southern Ireland. It makes sense to make this distinction.

the 'I' word?....I didn't call you ignorant dude, I said it was an ignorant statement, thats all.

I'll concede I should have been more specific as to what I meant about a terrorrist filled past...It was indeed more focused on N. Ireland. I should have worded what I meant about the conflict in that region and it's effect on Ireland as a whole in a less general way.

[Tequila Zaire]

I believe Ireland should encompass the entire island. Terrorism is ultimately just a tactic.

OEC

Bit more than a tactic...it's become a lifestyle. How fucked up is that?

[23*]

Exactly when was the american government ever popular in other countries? They are always reviled for something. Either were too isolationist or too "imperialistic" it's a losing battle to be loved.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that Ireland and the Irish people sincerly (and perhaps blindly) loved the USA almost unilaterally right up until just after sept. 11.

Last I checked it was more than just the U.S. fundementalists were pissed off at...or did you miss the other attacks on western and pro western nations like Bali?

dude
No I didn't miss the other attacks. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the Fundamentalists are pissed off with the Western world in general. But I think its reasonable to suggest that our governments piss them off less because we don't have such an arrogant attitude.

[One Eyed Cat]

Bit more than a tactic...it's become a lifestyle. How fucked up is that?

In the case of islamic fundamentalism, I agree. It is incredibly fucked-up. The absement of humanity is unprecedented. Children shot in the back in a *Muslim* part of Russia. Suicide bombings etc. It is sickening. Historically, it has been used as a tactic of asymmetrical warfare. It was often the only way to wear down a militarily superior opponent.

OEC

[23*]

I believe Ireland should encompass the entire island.

OEC

Don't get me started dude

[One Eyed Cat]

Don't get me started dude

I will only say I'm 120% with ya.

OEC

[Tequila Zaire]

Speaking from experience I can tell you that Ireland and the Irish people sincerly (and perhaps blindly) loved the USA almost unilaterally right up until just after sept. 11.

I dunno if that would count as love then...you love through thick and thin, maybe not blindly support it, but you still love it. If not...well then you never really loved it...you only thought you did. Nothing was ever really lost as a result cause it was never there to begin with.

Stop getting so bitchy dude

Not bitchy at all...we're not friends so there is no real reason to be anything more than respectful.

No I didn't miss the other attacks. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the Fundamentalists are pissed off with the Western world in general. But I think its reasonable to suggest that our governments piss them off less because we don't have such an arrogant attitude.

Now that's funny. Do history books get reset every century now? Europe has as much a hand in current conflict as much as the U.S. does...not to mention it did a good job dragging the U.S. into a few global conflicts early and mid last century...so it's not that Europe has got less arrogant...it simply lost it's grip on many of it's colonies that as history showed weren't let go peacefully. What we have now is part 2 to a larger story waiting to be played out. Look at the current U.N. scandal...less arrogant?...please. Back room deals with dictators and blood for oil is not a U.S. exclusive past time. This image of arrogant americans is hardly insulting either...would you rather them be timid? or maybe servent like? every nation and it's people need be arrogant to survive...or else they don't last...or are invaded again and again.

[23*]

I dunno if that would count as love then...you love through thick and thin, maybe not blindly support it, but you still love it. If not...well then you never really loved it...you only thought you did. Nothing was ever really lost as a result cause it was never there to begin with.

Is this a song?...
I don't really see what your point is. Things obviously change depending on current circumstances. You were suggesting that no one ever really liked America before or after Bush's regime. I was simply saying that this is not true.

Now that's funny. Do history books get reset every century now? Europe has as much a hand in current conflict as much as the U.S. does...not to mention it did a good job dragging the U.S. into a few global conflicts early and mid last century...so it's not that Europe has got less arrogant...it simply lost it's grip on many of it's colonies that as history showed weren't let go peacefully. What we have now is part 2 to a larger story waiting to be played out. Look at the current U.N. scandal...less arrogant?...please. Back room deals with dictators and blood for oil is not a U.S. exclusive past time. This image of arrogant americans is hardly insulting either...would you rather them be timid? or maybe servent like? every nation and it's people need be arrogant to survive...or else they don't last...or are invaded again and again.

No one would disagree that Europe has a violent past. But to a large extent our governments do function differently now. It's called progression towards political & social maturity....

European governments are more careful, they generally don't use rhetoric like "crusade". I'm not saying they are perfect by any standard. I never said this. But I do think that, largely, they are more mature.

Just to clarify that I never said anything about American people being arrogant. I was talking purely about American Foreign Policy.

[Tequila Zaire]

No one would disagree that Europe has a violent past. But to a large extent our governments do function differently now. It's called progression towards political & social maturity....

European governments are more careful, they generally don't use rhetoric like "crusade". I'm not saying they are perfect by any standard. I never said this. But I do think that, largely, they are more mature.

A handful of decades after centuries of figureing out the best ways to kill each other a retool genocide for the modern age does not strike me as more mature or politically and socially mature....up until the middle of the last century each inch was being fought over...so please save this naive notion that Europe has magicly come out of the dark age of killing one another...you may see it as progressive peace but if history has shown anything...it's just a time to re-arm. As far as not using rhetoric like "crusade"...that's a good one...healthy gut laugh that one caused. History has proven Europe no matter it's policy does not stay peaceful for long so call my cynical if you wish but I don't see this century working out any better than the last for the Old World...I've nothing against Europe...have kin scattered their myself...but I'm sure you'll all figure out soemthing to fight over soon enough...maybe Poland? ...again.

[23*]

A handful of decades after centuries of figureing out the best ways to kill each other a retool genocide for the modern age does not strike me as more mature or politically and socially mature....up until the middle of the last century each inch was being fought over...so please save this naive notion that Europe has magicly come out of the dark age of killing one another...you may see it as progressive peace but if history has shown anything...it's just a time to re-arm. As far as not using rhetoric like "crusade"...that's a good one...healthy gut laugh that one caused. History has proven Europe no matter it's policy does not stay peaceful for long so call my cynical if you wish but I don't see this century working out any better than the last for the Old World...I've nothing against Europe...have kin scattered their myself...but I'm sure you'll all figure out soemthing to fight over soon enough...maybe Poland? ...again.

maybe but
All I'm doing here is building on Jynxed Hero's point that the world might be a better place if America showed the world a less arrogant face of foreign policy. Because America is a large & powerful nation it is important that it do so.

Well, yes, "crusade" is an easy example, the point is that rhetoric is important. Islamic Fundamentalists don't stick around to hear Bush's apology, they hear the word "crusade".

Do you not agree that the world would be a better place if the US. government presented a less arrogant face to the world?

It seems to me that you think that Bush & Co. do not present a more arrogant face to the world than any other nation. Can so many people be wrong, and if so why?

[Tequila Zaire]

It seems to me that you think that Bush & Co. do not present a more arrogant face to the world than any other nation. Can so many people be wrong, and if so why?

Can so many people be wrong? Totally...Germany in the 1930's and 40's comes to mind.

Simply said...Bush & Co. are the same record playing the same tune only with a Texan tounge. It's just not something so new that I get upset over...they are a typical government administration. You put a texan in the office you're not gonna get a liberal hollywood president...you're gonna get someone that can piss the world off. Does it matter? Not really...European countries hating or loving the American Government is not high on my lists to worry about...like this moment...my main priority is "will I or will I not kill the cab driver who's late?" and "where in the hell is my carry on bag?" not "Man I hope (insert pissed off european country) likes us again soon."

Too much focus is on everyone liking each other and playing nice. Fuck that...it's not gonna happen.

I may be alone in this or just seeing it through the eyes of a dissilussioned mexican-american/whatever the P.C. crowd is calling me this year...but I've never seen great love from Europeans on American's...or anyone not in their neighborhood of nations as it where. I've seen tolorence but cheap shots fly all around no matter the political climate. Don't hate them for it...don't really ever plan on hating or boycotting or whatever....

But in my life...why should they matter over the country I pay taxes in? Do I feel bad this country is in an unpopular war? I don't feel good about it but I never really bought into the notion we only fought popular ones...a bit silly to put a high school mentality on politics...though sadly as I get older it seems that's all it is...High School cliques with bigger armies.

[23*]

Can so many people be wrong? Totally...Germany in the 1930's and 40's comes to mind.

the only difference being of course that the Nazi's wanted war.
I think that is a key difference.

[One Eyed Cat]

I would reject any comparison to Nazi Germany. It is disrespectful to 10s of millions of dead souls.

OEC

[Tequila Zaire]

the only difference being of course that the Nazi's wanted war.
I think that is a key difference.

I think we're looking at it in a diffrent way...thousands upon thousands followed that government...and they were wrong. So really many people following something does not make something right...even if they want peace. It's really hard for me to take people who promote peace seriously when they are so selective about how, when, and why it should exist...look at Africa...I think it'd make more sense to have mass demonstrations for stability on that continent with it's cycle of genocide in full form again...instead we have mass demonstrations about a war many countries who protest it are not involved in. Is it wrong? Nope...it is misguided...yeah. Their are better things to protest about than something they will not change...1 million norwegians can protest the war in Iraq...think it matters to the U.S. Government?

That kinda stuff...I don't see sense in. It's better to focus on what can be changed...I want a free Tibet but China seems to not want to listen to me...or the Beastie Boys for that matter. If we all focused on what we CAN change I think we'd be better off much faster and on a truly progressive road...but for now...

Marching, speetches, and websites filled with political ideals and bumper stickers that spout FREEDOM FOR (insert cause here) is not my idea of progress or usefullness...it's a waste of fucking time these days.

[Tequila Zaire]

I would reject any comparison to Nazi Germany. It is disrespectful to 10s of millions of dead souls.

OEC

Didn't you get the "comparing Bush to Hitler is cool" memo? I almost missed mine when I was throwing out my "Bands with THE in the title are cool now" handbook.

[One Eyed Cat]

I think we're looking at it in a diffrent way...thousands upon thousands followed that government...and they were wrong. So really many people following something does not make something right...even if they want peace. It's really hard for me to take people who promote peace seriously when they are so selective about how, when, and why it should exist...look at Africa...I think it'd make more sense to have mass demonstrations for stability on that continent with it's cycle of genocide in full form again...instead we have mass demonstrations about a war many countries who protest it are not involved in. Is it wrong? Nope...it is misguided...yeah. Their are better things to protest about than something they will not change...1 million norwegians can protest the war in Iraq...think it matters to the U.S. Government?

That kinda stuff...I don't see sense in. It's better to focus on what can be changed...I want a free Tibet but China seems to not want to listen to me...or the Beastie Boys for that matter. If we all focused on what we CAN change I think we'd be better off much faster and on a truly progressive road...but for now...

Marching, speetches, and websites filled with political ideals and bumper stickers that spout FREEDOM FOR (insert cause here) is not my idea of progress or usefullness...it's a waste of fucking time these days.

I missed the context of your comparison. I believe any country can rise from its knees. I am a witness to it happening right now.


OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Didn't you get the "comparing Bush to Hitler is cool" memo? I almost missed mine when I was throwing out my "Bands with THE in the title are cool now" handbook.

Sadly, yes. This is part of the reason my political convictions are changing.

OEC

[Tequila Zaire]

I missed the context of your comparison. I believe any country can rise from its knees. I am a witness to it happening right now.


OEC

Indeed they can...I just don't buy into millions believing something is right...makes it right is all. Then again anytime I see a mass of people going one way I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the back trying to figure out why they are going that way and take another road.

[One Eyed Cat]

Indeed they can...I just don't buy into millions believing something is right...makes it right is all. Then again anytime I see a mass of people going one way I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the back trying to figure out why they are going that way and take another road.

I sometimes wonder if the US is, in a sense, a victim of it's own success.

OEC

[23*]

I think we're looking at it in a diffrent way...thousands upon thousands followed that government...and they were wrong. So really many people following something does not make something right...even if they want peace. It's really hard for me to take people who promote peace seriously when they are so selective about how, when, and why it should exist...look at Africa...I think it'd make more sense to have mass demonstrations for stability on that continent with it's cycle of genocide in full form again...instead we have mass demonstrations about a war many countries who protest it are not involved in. Is it wrong? Nope...it is misguided...yeah. Their are better things to protest about than something they will not change...1 million norwegians can protest the war in Iraq...think it matters to the U.S. Government?

That kinda stuff...I don't see sense in. It's better to focus on what can be changed...I want a free Tibet but China seems to not want to listen to me...or the Beastie Boys for that matter. If we all focused on what we CAN change I think we'd be better off much faster and on a truly progressive road...but for now...

Marching, speetches, and websites filled with political ideals and bumper stickers that spout FREEDOM FOR (insert cause here) is not my idea of progress or usefullness...it's a waste of fucking time these days.

I disagree, I don't think any number of people can be wrong when they wish for peace. As for being selective, I bet if you asked, they'd be just as disturbed by all of these other international events. Nevertheless, America is a large & powerful nation, naturally it will attract more attention due to its stature. Moreover, Bush claims to represent the free world, because of his policies many people feel offended by this, how else should they voice their concerns except through protest. Also when people feel personally threatened, they become selective. Many people worldwide feel more threatened by the USA Government than any plight in Africa. Sad but true.

Look at Spain & the Ukraine for contempory examples of success.

I think we come from different angles...you're right.

[Tequila Zaire]

I sometimes wonder if the US is, in a sense, a victim of it's own success.

OEC

Nah it just needs a new publicist and PR campeign...though it has yet to stop any nation from accepting our money. Even Canada...as much as they want to say "We're like you" they're still stuck with us like a big brother who gives you a wedgie.

The problem is too much faith is put in talk or diplomacy really. It's just not always the best and less harmful course. Plus everyone wants a shot at the big kid one time or another...hell look at the insipid and truly horrible film Love Actually...it has a lil political jab at the U.S. unfortunately it's made in a way that makes good ole England look like a nice peaceful nation that never did wrong...dunno about your history books but mine had em doing some pretty fucked up shit in Africa, India, Asia, and I think they killed a seal in the Arctic...and I'm pretty sure a Penguin filed a class action suit in Antarctica.

When will the world accept...we are all equally and unapploligeticly ...evil and fucked up. So lets fall into death together and nuke the planet something feirce. Bit of a pipe dream I know but it would be nice to die collectively as a species...bit of justice in that.

[Tequila Zaire]

I disagree, I don't think any number of people can be wrong when they wish for peace.

And I do...peace simply isen't something that happens. It's paid for and it has one hefty butchers bill.

As for being selective, I bet if you asked, they'd be just as disturbed by all of these other international events. Nevertheless, America is a large & powerful nation, naturally it will attract more attention due to its stature. Moreover, Bush claims to represent the free world, because of his policies many people feel offended by this, how else should they voice their concerns except through protest. Also when people feel personally threatened, they become selective. Many people worldwide feel more threatened by the USA Government than any plight in Africa. Sad but true.

That's the thing...why do so many take what politicians say they stand for as point blank truth? You can't live like that...Bush claims a lot of things but only the naive think he is some grand leader of peace and prosperity...no one is...Hell Jesus was suppose to be that and we all know what happened...If you as an individual see the U.S. as more of a Danger than an ENTIRE CONTINENT slipping into disease, civil war, genocide, and utter anihilation...then really in just about every way you lose any credibility to be a person wanting Peace. Sorry but in that case...the "many" are fucking idiots.

Look at Spain & the Ukraine for contempory examples of success.

Yes but if you look at Spain's History...it's hard to say "yay"...more like "It's about fucking time."...though I have no faith either will retain what they feel they have achieved...call it my lack of trust in my fellow man. Plus I just really dislike socialists...and communists...and that guy who started his own cult down the street.

I think we come from different angles...you're right.

Thank god or whoever for that. It's jsut hard for me to take this seriously when even with something like an unpopular war people take it personally or for their own political aims....I mean fuck what's it going to take for people to actually look at something globally just ONE TIME...and stick to it for more than say 6 months. Even with all this talk it's pretty much been Europe focused on Europe as the center of the world...just like every other country does that in relation to them and the world.

Just human nature...or human stupidity I guess.

That's all I have to say on it anyway...I just don't see this hope and praise of modern political focus as anything beneficial or diffrent from what has come before it.

[23*]

Just human nature...or human stupidity I guess.

actually its called compassion.

[One Eyed Cat]

Plus I just really dislike socialists...and communists...and that guy who started his own cult down the street.

Ukraine is no longer socialist or communist. I have absolute faith in her ability to overcome any obstacles.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

peace does happen. it happens when I make the choice not to use violence against my fellow man. you ever hear of dr. martin luther king jr? ghandi? yeah they sure didn't change anyone's mind, I guess millions of people seeing thigns differently and using non-violence doesn't count for anything in the face of one man with a gun. it's pretty easy, and a lame excuse to punch someone in the face as proof that peace doesn't work. It doesn't work because you don't want it to, and refuse to see any other way besides violence, and project that upon all of the human race.

[23*]

I sometimes wonder if the US is, in a sense, a victim of it's own success.

OEC

hmmm...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/26/we...er=rssuserland

[Tequila Zaire]

peace does happen. it happens when I make the choice not to use violence against my fellow man.

That's well and good of you. But I was talking about all the mess of men and women who choose not to be peaceful and rob, ****, and murder. Peace does indeed happen...but it does not crush violence of the mind, body, and soul.

you ever hear of dr. martin luther king jr? ghandi? yeah they sure didn't change anyone's mind, I guess millions of people seeing thigns differently and using non-violence doesn't count for anything in the face of one man with a gun. it's pretty easy, and a lame excuse to punch someone in the face as proof that peace doesn't work.

They changed many minds and perceptions...and got murdered as well. Millions using non-violence does indeed count for nothing if they do not through their numbers and will try to quell and stop the violent. Peace doesn't work of people don't try and keep the peace...and that often requires some violence. Look at law enforcement...keepers of the peace...and they often have their hands filled with blood. I'm not talking about punches to the face you could get up from...I'm talking about a bullet to the back of your skull. It does not prove that peace does not work...but it proves a blind peace will always fail at the hands of those who choose not to honor it.

It doesn't work because you don't want it to, and refuse to see any other way besides violence, and project that upon all of the human race.

Project upon all the human race? You make it sound like none commit vile acts or that the brutality that is so much a part of humanity is being blown out of proportion. Peace does not work in the world I've come up in...I see people talk about it, but none ever really honor it. At the end of the day some idiot with a gripe offs another instead of following a peaceful manner. That's what I got to see in my old haunts and it's what I get to see now. Even on my time away I deal with people who will never live lives of peace for the simple fact that is not how their world functions. Do I think ALL of humanity is like that? Not all but a good majority...But hey maybe it's my own background and upbringing that has me seeing the world in a much negative more negative light than you...but it's really hard having much faith in my fellow man after seeing the vile shit they pull on a daily basis.

I'm glad their are people like you who believe in Peace....it's good to see that some have a positive outlook and faith in the world. I don't quite see it as such...but then to be honest most of my money comes from it's chaotic lil hellholes. I'm hoping to change that but the art game is a bit slower than they should be and my old habits got the best of me...I'm not proud of it...but I'm also not sorry for it. Right now I'm in a nice lil out of the way place filled with trees and such. I gotta say it's rather peaceful here and so far the people are nice...very ideal. Hell if I grew up here and around people like those I see as I write this...maybe I'd buy into this Peace works non violent mentality. Maybe it'll rub off by the time I leave. I'm very opened to that and to people such as yourself...wouldn't be on these boards in the wee hours if I wasen't.

I don't want to see the world as the violent mess I did growing up and as a young man. I didn't much like the deeds I had to do to live in it...while I was never as bad as those I ran with I wasn't far behind them. I knew why they did what they did and what put them in that place...it's easy to come to the conclusion that peace works when you don't act violent toward another. But sometimes that choice is not in your hands because it's just not an option. It's great to have a life where that's not a reality.

Sadly that's still not the case for us all...not yet anyhow. Personally I've been lucky that I rose a bit above it so I do have that choice and I've harmed none since...part of it due to cutting ties hard and part of it being more reclusive. I'm not 100% away from it all yet so I still see things I'd rather not and I gotta say it's a lot harder. You mentioned punching someone in the face as a poor excuse that peace doesn't work...it's not about finding an excuse to prove peace doesn't work...it's more about not recognizing that hitting someone in the head is not the way to live to begin with.

And really, that's a damned hard lesson to learn late in life. Hardest thing I ever had to learn. You all really want peace? Then take the need for violence out of so many peoples lives with the compassion and care needed...cause of all of those who preached to me...only one ever got it right. The rest wrote me off or talked to me how I was so wrong for what I did to others, how I stole their humanity and rights...they never understood that you can't honor another persons humanity, rights, and life when your's is kicked out from under you.

I know it's damn easy for some of you to say and spout some nice and ideals...but would you still have them if you lived a very diffrent life or had them broken before they fully formed?

I'm not excusing the violent but you simply can't tell them or show them peace...you need to make them want it for their own good...not the world's.

[One Eyed Cat]

hmmm...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/26/we...er=rssuserland

The Dollar will be a key indicator of what comes next. I'm all for a strong EU. I could do without the ambitions and abuses of countries like Russia and China, altho I am certainly for their cultures and peoples.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

I'm not excusing the violent but you simply can't tell them or show them peace...you need to make them want it for their own good...not the world's.

you can't, and if you tried then you'd be using the all-too-infrequent violent force of coercian that we all experience from seemingly every aspect of society, and that is far more permiating because it soaks into the mind through slow conditioning in a way that isn't as easily overcome as shoving off or walking away from someone that's abusing you with thier fists.
I know you are a good person, and you seem to try very hard to make a good place for yourself in this world. that means a lot, and just to think about things is the first step, that most people never do. I've been on the other end of the spectrum, and it almsot destoyed my life and I almost destroyed others, im lucky that I didn't get killed or kill myself, but I'm here today so that I can learn from my mistakes and try to make a better world for myself and my 6 billion brothers and sisters. You can't change the world, but you can change yourself, and sometimes others will follow.

[23*]

Yes but if you look at Spain's History...it's hard to say "yay"...more like "It's about fucking time."...though I have no faith either will retain what they feel they have achieved...call it my lack of trust in my fellow man. Plus I just really dislike socialists...and communists...and that guy who started his own cult down the street.

I don't see why it is necessary to historize it. The Spanish people wanted something, they protested and they got it. It was the same in the Ukraine. Are you saying that there is no point in like minded people voicing their opinions?

I mean fuck what's it going to take for people to actually look at something globally just ONE TIME...and stick to it for more than say 6 months.... Just human nature...or human stupidity I guess.

Yeah I mean, I was interested in world affairs long before 9.11, but I certainly don't resent the fact that people have become more interested in politics since then.....do you & why? I think it is one of the few good things to come from the Bush regime, people have become more interested, more active. Before you voice off about how nobody cares about anything Global consider this, the Irish public have donated in the region of 30+ Million Euro to the Tsunami relief project with another 10 Million from the government. That money comes from individual people contributing in various ways all over the country, collection boxes & volunteers. The response in the western world has been overwhelming in general, Norway is at 46 Million and in four countries (Germany, the US, Britain and the Netherlands) private donations have topped €100 million.

I'd think about this before you go mouthing off about the bad nature of people and the pointlessness of protest/consolidation.

[One Eyed Cat]

I don't see why it is necessary to historize it. The Spanish people wanted something, they protested and they got it. It was the same in the Ukraine. Are you saying that there is no point in like minded people voicing their opinions?

It's something you really have to see and feel for yourself. It changed my life just to have seen it .... just taking people to the Embassy in DC even. It opens your heart, but you have to be there and feel it .... or the point will pass you by.

OEC

[23*]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/010/...ers_for:.shtml shit yeah!!

[One Eyed Cat]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/010/...ers_for:.shtml shit yeah!!

The irony is that they were only there because of Kuchma. He used it as a way to try to hide his dirty deeds and coddle up to the west. "Pro-American" Yuschenko had stated even before this incident that his first decree as President would be to bring the boys back home. They never should have been there to begin with.

OEC