What do you think of JUST THE MILITARY?

[Tequila Zaire]

now who's denying the truth?

You can use science and religion to connect us all if you wish...but untill I can walk through a mall without having white security guards follow me around...I'll stick to my defenition of brotherhood.

[Morning Glory]

well I'm going to nod out to this pissing match, it's been fun. just remember you hotheaded types, if you want to beat out people's brains about how the military is fighting for our freedoms, then don't get bent when the people choose to excerisize said freedoms, which include speaking out against the military. at the end of the day you do what ya gotta do, and the military has fuck all to do with me and my day to day existance on this earth. I don't advocate putting down your guns, I need mine for when those military types show up at my door. fo sho

[Tequila Zaire]

. just remember you hotheaded types, if you want to beat out people's brains about how the military is fighting for our freedoms, then don't get bent when the people choose to excerisize said freedoms, which include speaking out against the military.

Don't for a second think you were somehow a victim of forced majority opinion...you said something insulting and stupid and got called on it. Simple as that.

[Forestghost]

Wow, have you guys ever been to a chat room, where some arsehole comes in and just causes shit. You know, going into a "Batman lovers" chatroom and saying "Batman is a F*G" or "people who like Batman are losers".
This is what Morning Glory appears to be doing. If you want a fight, don't do it here...express your opinion yes...but don't get into a civilized conversation and just cause trouble.

No, we don't hate what you say because it's different from what we think...we hate what you say because of the ignorance with which you say it. You look at the here and now ONLY...you look at the few bad examples you've seen and generalize....you blame the wrong people (hello, do you think maybe all of this is your PRESIDENT's fault? People who were already in the military had no choice but to go along with it...and people who are joining now either need the work so bad that they have no choice, really feel that they are protecting the country...and maybe, only like 1 in 1000 is getting in to vent frustration and kill)

Where does racism and homophobia come from? Maybe taking the few bad stereotypical examples seen and using them to generalize an entire group? Like you are doing with military members?

The other thing is....don't just look at what your military is doing this minute. Ok, you don't agree with the war in Iraq...neither do I. It's a pointless war that isn't really protecting you. I agree. But that is not what the military is always used for. Just because your country has a few bad examples of stupid military conflict (Vietnam, Iraq), doesn't mean that the military is useless. Look at it this way...did you agree with the Nazi Party and Hitler? I'm doubting it...and who stopped them? THE MILITARY. Why do you have the freedom to travel anywhere you want in your LARGE country? THE MILITARY...the military of the past, and the present. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Look at the big picture. Look at the things that the military does that doesn't have to do with war as well....search and rescue is an important function of the military up here. "yeah, but the police or ambulance can do that"...NO...do you know how much money it costs to pull of something like that? The military has the means to do it, and they do!

All I'm saying is...don't make personal attacks on a group of people (which makes you seem no worse than Hitler for example) and attack the people who are truely to blame. Lay your blame on the President...or lay your blame on the specific individuals who are only "out to kill ragheads"....but people like
Cheinara's Fiance shouldn't be discriminated against for their chosen career path!

[cheinara wraithwalker]

....but people like Cheinara's Fiance shouldn't be discriminated against for their chosen career path!

:')

[23*]

Pah! there is a lot of romanticising going on here - men who are just doing their jobs, men who wanted to be engineers, men who have no way out, our brave boys….

I hazard a guess that the people that blindly support these views are the same ones that easily resort to robot language like "ordinance", "precise guided weaponry", "bloopers" and "collateral damage" to explain the results of their golden boy's actions. "OH sorry", my job was to plant "CLAYMORES", not to ensure that only "MILITARY TARGETS" were “INCAPACITATED” by them.



Look wake the fuck up.

Now you might say what the fuck does he know about this, shit well no I've never been in war but i've been in difficult situations just like everyone else & I've made unpopular choices and stuck by the consequences. I can tell you straight up that i would refuse to kill another human being just because that is what I am told to do. I see anyone that is unable to do this "because its my job" as a purely lame individual. Individuals need to take some fucking responsibility.

[23*]

It is weird to say this, but you almost have to have war to have peace.

If thats what you need to believe....

human kind is suppose to advance not regress......the past is not the story of the future.

[Kidthorazine]

i think what morning glory is also failing to realise is that the weither the millitary goes to war or not has nothing to do with the millitary but with politics oh and all the people who i know that joined the army did so because it was either going to help them pay for college or they didnt now what they wanted to get out of the situations they were in and the millitary was the only way to do it. the army wont even accept you if they think you are just in it to kill people they have psychological testing to screen for that kind of stuff because the army doesnt want people like that because they are too violent and reckless

[Kidthorazine]

Now you might say what the fuck does he know about this, shit well no I've never been in war but i've been in difficult situations just like everyone else & I've made unpopular choices and stuck by the consequences. I can tell you straight up that i would refuse to kill another human being just because that is what I am told to do. I see anyone that is unable to do this "because its my job" as a purely lame individual. Individuals need to take some fucking responsibility.

I dont think youd be saying that if those other human beings were shooting at you

[23*]

I dont think youd be saying that if those other human beings were shooting at you

the point is that i wouldn't blindly put myself in that position in the first place.

[Kidthorazine]

the point is that i wouldn't blindly put myself in that position in the first place.

anyway I said "just because that is what i am told to do", someone shooting at me transcends this.

Agreed but soldiers usually arent ordered to shoot people shooting only comes when they are attacked of course you could say that someone had to follow an order to make the attack but then again thats war and those people are killing usually to protect more lives this isnt always the case as the current situation in iraq clearly shows but it usually is and the people who sign up specifically to go to war usually do it to protect whatever they belive in and the rest is all politics

[23*]

i think what morning glory is also failing to realise is that the weither the millitary goes to war or not has nothing to do with the millitary but with politics oh and all the people who i know that joined the army did so because it was either going to help them pay for college or they didnt now what they wanted to get out of the situations they were in and the millitary was the only way to do it. the army wont even accept you if they think you are just in it to kill people they have psychological testing to screen for that kind of stuff because the army doesnt want people like that because they are too violent and reckless

WTF? and if i go and start killing people on the sidewalk because i work for a government approved human meat distributor is that ok too? Using the president or government as an excuse for your behaviour is like the ultimate cop out.

[Kidthorazine]

WTF? and if i go and start killing people on the sidewalk because i work for a government approved human meat distributor is that ok too? Using the president or government as an excuse for your behaviour is like the ultimate cop out.

Im not saying that im talking about how war dammit and you say it like people in the millitary just go about recklessy killing people i assure you most of the time if they didnt kill the people that they do those people would kill them sure civillians die and thats bad but it is inevitable in war and the US millitary and most others usually make it a point to minimalize civillian casualties

[23*]

Im not saying that im talking about how war dammit and you say it like people in the millitary just go about recklessy killing people

Granted they are not all robotic idiots. But they are doing a very good job of convincing me of their recklessness.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...cient_babylon/

sure civillians die and thats bad but it is inevitable in war and the US millitary and most others usually make it a point to minimalize civillian casualties

aye aye captain:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm
you'll remember that the actual full list is at least five times longer.

"eventually, intent becomes peripheral to the real issue".

[One Eyed Cat]

Granted they are not all robotic idiots. But they are doing a very good job of convincing me of their recklessness.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...cient_babylon/




aye aye captain:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

"eventually, intent becomes peripheral to the real issue".

You do realize Saddam killed in excess of One Million Civilians? That would be the alternative you are proposing for the Iraqi people. I was never for this war, but to argue based on body counts is patently absurd. There was no other option where Iraqi civilians would be able to live in peace. The US would have to be in Iraq for approximately 600 years to catch Saddam at that rate.

OEC

[Kidthorazine]

ok as far as the ancient babylonian thing that is a valid point but i was reffering more along the lines of recklessly killing people and as far as the civillian body count goes i only saw two or three that were directly atributed to american soldiers sure there were alot of deaths due to missles and i highly disagree with the use of strategig missiles in densely populated areas but most of theese people look like they either died in suicide bombings which you cannot blame the american millitary for or from bieng caught in a crossfire which like i said before is inevitable especially in densely populated areas

[23*]

why is it such a problem for some of you to look at civilian & military casualties!!?? This is the reality, if you don't like it don't look at it but don't tell me that it is an invalid criticism.

To the best of my knowledge (and if i'm wrong here i'll admit it) that monster Saddam killed 300 000 iraqi people in 30 years. You see, Bush is actually killing iraqis at a much faster rate than saddam ever did.

[23*]

ok as far as the ancient babylonian thing that is a valid point but i was reffering more along the lines of recklessly killing people and as far as the civillian body count goes i only saw two or three that were directly atributed to american soldiers sure there were alot of deaths due to missles and i highly disagree with the use of strategig missiles in densely populated areas but most of theese people look like they either died in suicide bombings which you cannot blame the american millitary for or from bieng caught in a crossfire which like i said before is inevitable especially in densely populated areas

these are civilian casualities.

deaths in densely populated areas are only inevitable because American troops are dropping bombs there.

[One Eyed Cat]

why is it such a problem for some of you to look at civilian & military casualties!!?? This is the reality, if you don't like it don't look at it but don't tell me that it is an invalid criticism.

To the best of my knowledge (and if i'm wrong here i'll admit it) that monster Saddam killed 300 000 iraqi people in 30 years. You see, Bush is actually killing iraqis at a much faster rate than saddam ever did.

No. Even by that incredibly generous count, he is kiiling at a rate about 4 times lower than Saddam.I've also never seen an estimate below 1 Million. I believe it is an invalid *argument* tho a valid *criticism* of methodology. At any rate, I've exceeded my quota for non-Blue Blood posts for the day. You are entitled to your opinions, I simply disagree.

OEC

[Nuada_Airgetlam]

haha. I love how anyone who doesn't support the will of the mjaority, in this case that the military is good, is irational and petty and hateful (unlike say, going to someone's country and killing people that are just doing the same thing as you, only they are the one's that are defending thier country from an invading army)
you say that my reasoning is bullshit. ok. well i'd like to know some other reasons behind joining the military besides the one's that I listed. I'd also like to know exactly what freedoms of mine are being protected by the military, and how they are going about doing that expressley.
so while I'm waiting for that, it's been suggested that I go talk to a soldier and ask him how he feels about it. I'll do that next time I see one. and if you get the chance why don't you go to an Iraqi graveyard and talk to the family members of 10,000+ non-combatant civilians that were killed by those soldiers, and ask them if that's their idea of liberation.

MY TURN.

Hmm freedoms
the freedom to bash and bad mouth the entire military.
the freedom to sleep in a warm bed at night
the freedom to fuck up your life if you want
the freedom to do or say anything that you want without fear of being killed by the government.
the freedom to be a smallminded individual
bitch all you want just think if there was no military what would happen to all those beautiful freedoms.
Those 10,000 wow big number
what about the millions of world war 1 and world war 2 or the korean war the vietnam war the gulf war. Go ask the millions of silent graves of people that spoke out against Suddam. Ask the wife of the Marine captain who died yesterday after receiving an abdominal wound from shrapnel. *He was a medic they do not carry weapons* he was also a husband and a father. go ahead ask her what she thinks about what you have to say. SHe is a marine Lt and she is also a medic. Ask the thousands of lives that have been saved and helped becuause the US Military was there after the natural disasters what they think of us. Watch the news it tells of US servicemembers being recalled to go help victims of the tsunamis that swept the asia pacific area. We the US Miltary *this includes the marines that are mindless robots* are out here volunteering our time and money basically to help victims of a natural disaster.
Oh and just so you know the wounds received from shrapnel are painful and he did not die quick and painlessly he died slowly and in more pain than you have ever expierenced.

[TheDeathKnight]

Human conflict is something that always seems to happen, throughout history.
Usually due to conflict over resources, or sometimes over values.
Sure, it would be great to imagine a world, where people do not
fight, do not have wars, and everyone gets along, etc...
But that is a long way away.
There is a huge population increase, and all those people will
have more kids, and the population problem will get worse and worse.
Africa is a perfect example.
As people run out of resources, money, land, food, they end up
attacking other people. You get wars, famine, disease, genocide, conflict, etc...
If the world keeps going the way it is going, we will have more wars,
more conflicts, etc... I will keep hoping that we figure out a plan
to fix these problems. But until we can get past the religious
bullshit about birth control, etc, our population will keep expanding,
and conflict and disease will be the result.
Saddam and Bush are just doing what leaders have done
for millions of years. Fighting...
And hell, maybe it is in our nature to fight.
Maybe even when everything is perfect,
people will still want to fight, dominate, control, etc...
And even if humanity becomes peaceful,
who is to say some invading alien race would not
attack us in a warlike way? So I think a strong
military is always a good idea. And the best thing
is to never have to use it. But when people attack you,
you need to have the ability to fight back.

Yes, the ideas behind this war are stupid, and the idea that an
invading army will be welcomed, is bullshit. There will be resistance,
just like there would be if some huge army invaded the USA.

We need to fight back when attacked.
But getting involved in invading another country,
and staying there, is not the best idea.

[23*]

MY TURN.

Hmm freedoms
the freedom to bash and bad mouth the entire military.
the freedom to sleep in a warm bed at night
the freedom to fuck up your life if you want
the freedom to do or say anything that you want without fear of being killed by the government.
the freedom to be a smallminded individual
bitch all you want just think if there was no military what would happen to all those beautiful freedoms.
Those 10,000 wow big number

shit...this is funny....you should be a comedian!

Ask the wife of the Marine captain who died yesterday after receiving an abdominal wound from shrapnel. *He was a medic they do not carry weapons* he was also a husband and a father. go ahead ask her what she thinks about what you have to say. SHe is a marine Lt and she is also a medic.
Oh and just so you know the wounds received from shrapnel are painful and he did not die quick and painlessly he died slowly and in more pain than you have ever expierenced.

if you play with fire you get burnt....what do you want? a fucking medal?

[Morning Glory]

the freedom to sleep in a warm bed at night

that's great, someone really needs to tell that to all the people that can't afford to pay rent and are sleeping on the street. I'm the only one that's fighting for a warm bed at night for myself.

[Tequila Zaire]

Pah! there is a lot of romanticising going on here - men who are just doing their jobs, men who wanted to be engineers, men who have no way out, our brave boys….

If that's romaticising then you seriously misunderstand what goes on in the military and why so many join up. It's not an easy choice to sign up for a job that will at some point put you in harms way and call upon you to make sacrifices and choices that may be hard to live with. None of us who actually have a connection to this truth are romanticising it...it's what we know as fact. None of our family and friends said one bright sunny day "You know what? I wanna go kill people for 4 years." Many I know came from neighborhoods that if they wanted to be a killer....could have EASILY stayed in said neighborhood and accomplished such a goal at a higher pay. It amazes me that everything else can be seen in multiple ways but when it comes to this subject 2 supposedly smart and educated men become narrow minded to the point of blindness. The military has and always will be a way for those without to rise above...at a tremendous cost.

I hazard a guess that the people that blindly support these views are the same ones that easily resort to robot language like "ordinance", "precise guided weaponry", "bloopers" and "collateral damage" to explain the results of their golden boy's actions. "OH sorry", my job was to plant "CLAYMORES", not to ensure that only "MILITARY TARGETS" were “INCAPACITATED” by them.

Again this shows you not only have NO UNDERSTANDING of military terminology and how it is used but litte care or reason to see beyond your own arrogant worldview that the actions these men and women commit both in terms of taking and preserving life have an effect on them. Language in the military has two key duties...to make sure what is communicated is exact and to the point and to keep things as emotionless as possible as a situation unfolds so that communication can carry through undaunted. You don't want emotion taking over a stress filled situation. Emotion is already there...you curb it and concentrate on how to either end the current situation on continue it as best as possible. Real combat and military situations are not like the movies...they tend to be far far worse.

Look wake the fuck up.

Indeed. Wake the fuck up.

Now you might say what the fuck does he know about this,

Not really...your garbage is as laughable as morning glory's. It'd be easy to have any respect for the opinions you both spew if their was any reason or understanding behind them. None have said you should respect, support, or love the men and women who serve in the military....but at least put some effort in understanding them. It's so painfully clear you don't that reading the bile you both have spewed is really just an exercise in dealing with pure unfiltered hate. One I will happily rip apart with every way possible.

[23*]

None of our family and friends said one bright sunny day "You know what? I wanna go kill people for 4 years."

if you join the army you should realise that there may be a war. In war you kill people. Being given a gun and Killing other random people with and without guns is barbaric and stupid.

i have said at least once before that i think the military is useful in civic and defensive... no I said D - E - F - E - N - S - I - V - E not O - F - F - E -N - S - I - V - E duties.

The military has and always will be a way for those without to rise above...at a tremendous cost.

Yes....HURRAH!! Only back in the old days they used to steal the enemy's gold teeth too.

Yes tremendous cost indeed, ah but to who?....i wonder if the Iraqi widow gives a fuck about Sgt. Slaughters promotion?

Language in the military has two key duties...to make sure what is communicated is exact and to the point and to keep things as emotionless as possible as a situation unfolds so that communication can carry through undaunted.

I think you'll find its also a useful disguise. It removes you from the REALITY of the situation....i think you've been reading too much Tom Clancy.

You don't want emotion taking over a stress filled situation. Emotion is already there...you curb it and concentrate on how to either end the current situation on continue it as best as possible.

YUP...oil up those robot commandos!!

Indeed. Wake the fuck up.

yep...try joining the free thinking world where people take responsibility for their actions.

[23*]

i just think the military is a cowardly approach to life.
if you could sign up for the military and be exempt or at least have a choice in being involved in the wars themselves i'd be all for it.


But I'm not buying into the bullshit until then.

[Tequila Zaire]

if you join the army you should realise that there may be a war. In war you kill people. Being given a gun and Killing other random people with and without guns is barbaric and stupid.

i have said at least once before that i think the military is useful in civic and defensive... no I said D - E - F - E - N - S - I - V - E not O - F - F - E -N - S - I - V - E duties.

That's both naive and unrealistic boardering on dangerous idealogy. A military cannot function by being always on the defensive it takes away the intiative and places the enemy in an advantageous situation. Even in daily life you can't function like that. You need to be on top of a situation or with at least an advnatage if one wishes to rise above another...you can't always play fair...and it's dangerous to always keep on the defensive if you want to survive situations where agression is a key factor.

Yes....HURRAH!! Only back in the old days they used to steal the enemy's gold teeth too.

Yes tremendous cost indeed, ah but to who?....i wonder if the Iraqi widow gives a fuck about Sgt. Slaughters promotion?

May worry your (or not) to find out that practice still occurs in assorted conflicts around the world. It never went out of style. An Iraqi widow may not care about a fictional WWF/G.I. Joe action figure getting a promotion but at least they have shown some sense of understanding for the loss of a loved one and countrymen in a conflict all were unsure about.

I think you'll find its also a useful disguise. It removes you from the REALITY of the situation....i think you've been reading too much Tom Clancy.

What a cheap and pathetic attempt at comedy. I don't read Clancy...just the letters of friends serving overseas in assorted zones of conflict and dealing with the REALITY of families who've lost key members of their families to this war and previous conflicts.

yep...try joining the free thinking world where people take responsibility for their actions.

Please...you've yet to show any real thought here and I doubt you have any kind of convictions to show action.

[Kidthorazine]

i just think the military is a cowardly approach to life.
if you could sign up for the military and be exempt or at least have a choice in being involved in the wars themselves i'd be all for it.


But I'm not buying into the bullshit until then.

Actually when you join you can usually choose what type of work youll be doing which directly influences weither or not you will see combat do you think a JAG officer would ever have field duty i dont there are many options in the millitary that dont involve you being shipped off to war though sometimes they are harder to get

[Tequila Zaire]

i just think the military is a cowardly approach to life.
if you could sign up for the military and be exempt or at least have a choice in being involved in the wars themselves i'd be all for it.


But I'm not buying into the bullshit until then.

Then don't sign up...but don't for a fucking second think you can make inane generalizations about those that do and not be called on them.

[23*]

Please...you've yet to show any real thought here and I doubt you have any kind of convictions to show action.

i've been very clear. My point is not the same as "Morning Glorys", my point is and always has been that if you are going to kill someone you better have a damn good reason for doing it and not purely an economic one.

At least acknowlege that I have a point, otherwise i can only wonder at your ability to read.

[23*]

Actually when you join you can usually choose what type of work youll be doing which directly influences weither or not you will see combat do you think a JAG officer would ever have field duty i dont there are many options in the millitary that dont involve you being shipped off to war though sometimes they are harder to get

Oh i'm with this all the way. I just think anyone with any principles or balls would quit when they are told to go abroad and kill for oil.

[Tequila Zaire]

i've been very clear. My point is not the same as "Morning Glorys", my point is and always has been that if you are going to kill someone you better have a damn good reason for doing it and not purely an economic one.

At least acknowlege that I have a point, otherwise i can only wonder at your ability to read.

Make a valid point and I'll happily acknowledge it.

Killing a person for ecenomic reasons has been one of the cheif reasons people kill others since well...ever. You may not like it...but it's a damn good one.

[23*]

Killing a person for ecenomic reasons has been one of the chief reasons people kill others since well...ever. You may not like it...but it's a damn good one.

talk about inane...
yeh...seriously....try thinking outside the box.....what is done is not always what is right.

really though...you should join the army...you would make the perfect.....er.....robot!

[Tequila Zaire]

talk about inane...
yeh...seriously....try thinking outside the box.....what is done is not always what is right.

really though...you should join the army...you would make the perfect.....er.....robot!

So the deal here is what? Deny actual truths in favor of unrealistic idealized ones?

I was unaware we lived in a world were people didn't kill each other for monatary gain...guess all the gang members I grew up around were shooting each other out of boredom.

[23*]

!!hurrah Lets All Kill Each Other For Food Tokens!!

[Kidthorazine]

Oh i'm with this all the way. I just think anyone with any principles or balls would quit when they are told to go abroad and kill for oil.

once you sign up quitting isnt typically a viable option

[Tequila Zaire]

!!hurrah Lets All Kill Each Other For Food Tokens!!

If those I hold close or myself are starving...then yes. Though I'd steal em first...but cannibalism does come in handy.

[23*]

Look i know you come from a very very different background to me, and i respect that, I certainly contend that you've had it rougher than me.

So neither of us have been very cordial but as you said before no one here is really diplomatic enough to change the others views so lets just leave it?

[23*]

once you sign up quitting isnt typically a viable option

i disagree, and quitting is where you show real courage.

[Tequila Zaire]

Look i know you come from a very very different background to me, and i respect that, I certainly contend that you've had it rougher than me.

So neither of us have been very cordial but as you said before no one here is really diplomatic enough to change the others views so lets just leave it?

Sure thing.