Matthew Reed from TigerLilly Tattoo and DesignWorks Sues Over Tattoo Design Ownership

[Amelia G]

A basketball player did an ad for Nike which apparently was themed around his unique tattoo. The tattoo artist is suing for damages and an injunction, claiming that he owns the copyright on that ink. The tattoo artist apparently gave Trail Blazer Rasheed Wallace a discount on the ink because he believed it would be good exposure.

More info at this link.

What is your opinion about how to handle copyright for body modifications? This one seems like a bit of a puzzler.

[ForrestBlack]

Hmmm... I'm not a tattoo artist. Is it work for hire or buying art? I tend to think of it as work for hire, so unless it's flash, the designer owns it. And by designer, I mean the one that walked into the shop and described what they wanted on themselves. As I recall, Rasheed had a very specific design that was personal to him and had a great deal of input on it. Workmanship is up to the tattoo artist though.

[KilLAtomiK]

once you sell it it aint yours

[Tequila Zaire]

That's really an odd one but I don't see how the tattoo artist can claim he owns a design at all. I've always seen tattoo art like when artists are paid to do fresco's or intricate woodwork on a house. You're being paid to essentially decorate and add something to an established form that is greater than the work you do. It's not specifically about ones work or designs. Plus it's on a person and unless it's a corporate or copywritten logo BEFORE it was applied to a person's body and used commericially how would he have a case for ownership?

Unless Rasheed signed some sort of contract saying he would not use the tattoo in a commercial way or something like it'll be nearly impossible for this tattoo artist to really take this any farther. Even if he does own the artwork and the copyright to it he was essentially paid FOR it when he chose to put it on the flesh of a person. At that point it is no longer his copywritten artwork (ink) but Rasheed's tattoo.

Plus it really is work for hire given the nature of how tattoo's work. Doing the design on paper is by all legal defenitions illustration or painting (or similar) so when you make it an actual tattoo you are crossing into another genre and form...and when it deals with human flesh it's hard to claim ownership unless it's your own.

Honestly the tattoo artist is getting into pretty hot water in the NON legal front since it can be spinned in all sorts of unflattering ways...plus what would future clients think of not even owning their own tattoo that they paid money and pain for?

I mean come on...his reason was to get exposure so in a very real way he essentially gave Rasheed the image for ADVERTISING purposes which in all truth is what Rasheed did with it when working for Nike.

[Morning Glory]

eh, it's stupid but fuck it, this guy is just smarter than everyone else, if he can make money off of nike and the basketball industry (like he's really going to put a notch in thier bank accounts) then more power to him. basketball players get paid millions to do shit that the rest of us do in our free time, that is when we're not working our asses off for 6 bucks an hour, and nike uses slave labour to make thier products, bottom line. so anything that can be done to steal back from them is only fair.

[Tequila Zaire]

eh, it's stupid but fuck it, this guy is just smarter than everyone else, if he can make money off of nike and the basketball industry (like he's really going to put a notch in thier bank accounts) then more power to him. basketball players get paid millions to do shit that the rest of us do in our free time, that is when we're not working our asses off for 6 bucks an hour, and nike uses slave labour to make thier products, bottom line. so anything that can be done to steal back from them is only fair.

True on the Nike thing but as much as people play Basketball on their free time none play to the caliber of even a mediocre NBA player. My hats off to em...they too a basic game everyone learned to play and took it to whole other level. Just like musicians...anyone can pick up a guitar...takes real talent, skill, and dedication to make it come alive.

[Morning Glory]

I think that's really open to debate.

[Tequila Zaire]

I think that's really open to debate.

Anything is...

[Morning Glory]

ok, let me rephrase that.. they may be GREAT basketball players... I'm really great at standing on one foot and juggling... the point wasn't whether or not they were skilled or not it was the level of compensation that they get for a skill that does nothing productive to society... and I don't see how any rational person can justify the huge bloated saleries of these pro sports stars, who are viewed as role models and heroes in our society, and a single mom raising her kids gets paid absolutly nothing for that work, which is a 24/7 job, and if she tries to ask for compensation for it, the general attitude is she's lazy and a cheat. that's insanity.

[ForrestBlack]

I think it's possible that Nike filmed the commercial based on the artwork, tracked down the artist just to cover themselves, and paid him to file suit so that people would talk about the Nike Rasheed Tattoo Scandal, since that is the SOP of sophisticated modern advertising. You can't just make a promo, you must make a controversial news breaking story about your promo. We're not immune to that yet.

[Tequila Zaire]

Well if it's about compensation...given how much is MADE off these players because of the things you listed...it actually evens out. Plus you have to factor in how much of that money goes to the government, agents, and outside intrests and charities. Not every player tosses millions to charity but you are forgetting that many are the CHILDREN of the struggling single mothers, fathers, and poor families.

Rich white kids don't turn into NBA superstars and a majority of NBA stars come from background of middle class and below. So this is really the only way to make such insane paychecks. the media loves to focus on the extravagence of these stars...but at the same time these are rarely men who would make anywhere near that kind of money traditionally...hell few do.

Major league sports are usually made of men and women who are far from rich...there are exceptions...but it's one of the few professional industries where they are the exception. So as far as I'm concered some poor kid from a single parent household rising up playing b-ball to make millions sounds fair to me...cause for each of them that does...there are many who fall far from such graces.

Societies attitude toward the single mother with the 24/7 job does not matter...her kids know and she's a hero to them...that's what matters cause that's what she's working for...not public recognition.

[Tequila Zaire]

I think it's possible that Nike filmed the commercial based on the artwork, tracked down the artist just to cover themselves, and paid him to file suit so that people would talk about the Nike Rasheed Tattoo Scandal, since that is the SOP of sophisticated modern advertising. You can't just make a promo, you must make a controversial news breaking story about your promo. We're not immune to that yet.

True...didn't think of that one. Not sure if that's sleazy or genius.

[Amelia G]

Basketball professionals make a lot of money, but they don't make it for very long. For many of them, those giant salaries they get for a few years when they are young and strong and agile must last them the rest of their lives.

[Tequila Zaire]

Basketball professionals make a lot of money, but they don't make it for very long. For many of them, those giant salaries they get for a few years when they are young and strong and agile must last them the rest of their lives.

Plus an average the pro career is only 4 years...not all of them are stars or sign massive endorsement deals.

[Jax]

A basketball player did an ad for Nike which apparently was themed around his unique tattoo. The tattoo artist is suing for damages and an injunction, claiming that he owns the copyright on that ink. The tattoo artist apparently gave Trail Blazer Rasheed Wallace a discount on the ink because he believed it would be good exposure.

More info at this link.

What is your opinion about how to handle copyright for body modifications? This one seems like a bit of a puzzler.

OMG that tatto artists needs to get his ass kicked. I say, tough shit sherlock. Wallace owns it, its on his body. So thats like, me taking pictures and getting paid, but my tattoo artists should get a percentage of ALL my shoots? I dont think so. I paid for them, they are my property. If that was the case, any tattoo artist that tattooed anyone thats in any publication would be rich. For instance, my fiance has a back tattoo, lets say it was the cover of CD, does that mean the artist gets a percentage?

That artist is a buttmunch. And a fuckstick to boot. I want to rub my butt on him.

[Jax]

eh, it's stupid but fuck it, this guy is just smarter than everyone else, if he can make money off of nike and the basketball industry (like he's really going to put a notch in thier bank accounts) then more power to him. basketball players get paid millions to do shit that the rest of us do in our free time, that is when we're not working our asses off for 6 bucks an hour, and nike uses slave labour to make thier products, bottom line. so anything that can be done to steal back from them is only fair.

Id love to see you play these dudes. Since you do it in your free time, Im sure you wouldnt mind. Its not like youre losing 6 bucks or anything, since its sooooooo easy. Ummm, and Id suggest you get a different job.

[Jax]

ok, let me rephrase that.. they may be GREAT basketball players... I'm really great at standing on one foot and juggling... the point wasn't whether or not they were skilled or not it was the level of compensation that they get for a skill that does nothing productive to society... and I don't see how any rational person can justify the huge bloated saleries of these pro sports stars, who are viewed as role models and heroes in our society, and a single mom raising her kids gets paid absolutly nothing for that work, which is a 24/7 job, and if she tries to ask for compensation for it, the general attitude is she's lazy and a cheat. that's insanity.

We could all say she could have kept her legs closed, so hows that a job? So, I should get paid for walking my dog?

[Tequila Zaire]

We could all say she could have kept her legs closed, so hows that a job? So, I should get paid for walking my dog?

Hahah reminds me of a situation where I made a crack to one of my cousins friends about being a dog walker. I basicly said it was not a real job and anyone could do it...you know, totally being a prick. So she said I should join her one day at work and that she would pay me too. SO I said sure.

Holy fuck that was one of the hardest and worst days of my life. See I thought she walked like a couple of dogs around the block or something. No way. It was like a dozen and she took em to this dog park and in all truth it was like looking after 12 kindergardeners on massive amounts of sugar. It was just insane the amount of stuff you had to do and be careful about and take care....I was seriously impressed with how she managed em...they would have eaten me alive otherwise literally and figurativly. At the end of the way I didn't accept the money she gave me of course....I consider it a lesson well learned. It's easy for many of us to say a certain job looks easy or that one gets paid too much for doing it...but sometimes those jobs are the most difficult we'll find. Granted she knew what she was doing with all those dogs but I can honestly say I never would have achieved the level of crontrol and understanding she had about her job cause I simply am not that tuned into animals they way she was. That's true for a lot of things and it can make something even tougher no matter what the skills involved are.

[Morning Glory]

We could all say she could have kept her legs closed, so hows that a job? So, I should get paid for walking my dog?

why don't you call up your own mom and tell her that? If you have one I'm sure she thinks the time she spent feeding, clothing, changing your diapers, getting up in the middle of the night to take care of you, teaching you, etc. was a waste of time, and if you don't have one or didn't experience those things, then you need to shut up and lose that attitude because that speaks about as much for me and the NBA, except that I DO have experience playing basketball.

[Ellis]

Actually, I have to agree. Athletes get paid far too much money to do what it is they do. Its not so much the fact that they do it for a living, as it is a fact that they are paid more than most of the other people on the planet. The obscene part is the amount of money they make in advertising. You get a paycheck for training, travelling, playing... okay, im willing to accept that. My problem is the amount of money they pay these athletes to be in their comercials.
Also, some people cannot get a job that pays more than 6 dollars an hour. I would suggest getting off your high horse and looking at it from the perspective of those les fortunate than you.

[BrightStar]

OMG that tatto artists needs to get his ass kicked. I say, tough shit sherlock. Wallace owns it, its on his body. So thats like, me taking pictures and getting paid, but my tattoo artists should get a percentage of ALL my shoots? I dont think so. I paid for them, they are my property. If that was the case, any tattoo artist that tattooed anyone thats in any publication would be rich. For instance, my fiance has a back tattoo, lets say it was the cover of CD, does that mean the artist gets a percentage?.

I agree with you completely!

I want to rub my butt on him.

Why reward him?

**

[Jax]

Hahah reminds me of a situation where I made a crack to one of my cousins friends about being a dog walker. I basicly said it was not a real job and anyone could do it...you know, totally being a prick. So she said I should join her one day at work and that she would pay me too. SO I said sure.

Holy fuck that was one of the hardest and worst days of my life. See I thought she walked like a couple of dogs around the block or something. No way. It was like a dozen and she took em to this dog park and in all truth it was like looking after 12 kindergardeners on massive amounts of sugar. It was just insane the amount of stuff you had to do and be careful about and take care....I was seriously impressed with how she managed em...they would have eaten me alive otherwise literally and figurativly. At the end of the way I didn't accept the money she gave me of course....I consider it a lesson well learned. It's easy for many of us to say a certain job looks easy or that one gets paid too much for doing it...but sometimes those jobs are the most difficult we'll find. Granted she knew what she was doing with all those dogs but I can honestly say I never would have achieved the level of crontrol and understanding she had about her job cause I simply am not that tuned into animals they way she was. That's true for a lot of things and it can make something even tougher no matter what the skills involved are.

Lol, Im going through that right now bartending. Never done it, it always looked easy, but BOY, Im enjoying barely being able to walk right now.

[Jax]

why don't you call up your own mom and tell her that? If you have one I'm sure she thinks the time she spent feeding, clothing, changing your diapers, getting up in the middle of the night to take care of you, teaching you, etc. was a waste of time, and if you don't have one or didn't experience those things, then you need to shut up and lose that attitude because that speaks about as much for me and the NBA, except that I DO have experience playing basketball.

My mother CHOSE to have me. If you arent prepared to be a mother and are crying about how much work they are, then dont have them. Simple, really. My mother never whined because she wasnt making enough to take care of me, she did what she had to do and was prepared, knowing how much hard work it is. Why should she get paid more just because shes a single mother, as she more than likely chose to have children? Like I said, that like me crying about not getting paid enough to walk my dog. I chose to have the dog, I know the work involved.

[Jax]

Actually, I have to agree. Athletes get paid far too much money to do what it is they do. Its not so much the fact that they do it for a living, as it is a fact that they are paid more than most of the other people on the planet. The obscene part is the amount of money they make in advertising. You get a paycheck for training, travelling, playing... okay, im willing to accept that. My problem is the amount of money they pay these athletes to be in their comercials.
Also, some people cannot get a job that pays more than 6 dollars an hour. I would suggest getting off your high horse and looking at it from the perspective of those les fortunate than you.

Lol, Im always on my high horse, and I love it up here. If you dont like making 6 an hour, get a different job, get an education, do something to change it. It isnt how much you make to be rich or well off, its how much you spend. Ive worked for 5.15 an hour with a car payment, apartment, and bills, but instead of feeling like Im less fortunate, I did something to change it.

[Jax]

I agree with you completely!




Why reward him?

**

Lol!

[hewhoisagod]

My opinion: Wallace paid the guy to do the work for him, therefore it's Wallace's property. He should be able to do with it as he pleases. It's the same as the sistine chapel. Michelangelo might have done the work but he was paid by the church to do it so it's the church's property.

[Tequila Zaire]

Lol, Im always on my high horse, and I love it up here. If you dont like making 6 an hour, get a different job, get an education, do something to change it. It isnt how much you make to be rich or well off, its how much you spend. Ive worked for 5.15 an hour with a car payment, apartment, and bills, but instead of feeling like Im less fortunate, I did something to change it.

Stay on up there darlin, and kick any who try to take you down.

The whole idea of whining that people get paid too much is silly as all hell. Sports stars get paid alot...average players however do not. At least not in the way many seem to think. As it's been stated before...they have to make the cash they make last a lifetime or use their career to enter other professions. Average pro careers aren't all that long. You earn as much as your talent and business sense will take you...some are better at it than others. Why is their such a double standard for sports stars but not uber rock and pop stars who make shitty music? All of it screams jealousy...and this crap about not being able to get a better job is BS...ANYONE can get a better job if they look hard enough or at least learn to manage their money better.

It's pathetic when people look down on others for having it better than they do.

[Amelia G]

Why reward him?

**

I was thinking the same thing

[ForrestBlack]

Pro Athletes entertain more people than most movie stars or rock stars. They bring pleasure and excitement to millions of people. I don't begrudge them their paycheck at all. If a team of musicians could sell out stadiums that large every week, sell that much merch, and get that level of cable TV viewership as well, they would deserve a lot of money too. Entertainment is a valid profession and very few people have the skill and dedication to qualify. They (the athletes) generally live in a capitalist system, and I'm not sure I understand drawing some arbitrary line that says 'I'm sorry, you just make too much money, you are too successful, too many people are entertained by your skills.

[Tequila Zaire]

I think many people forget that pro sports IS entertainment...and as stated one that gets insane levels of viewership and attendance. Plus their is a certain aura around pro sports stars that even when they shatter it...still lives on. It's true for others in any entertianment field but none seem to draw such a diverse crowd of people like sports stars...President and Poor Man alike can be brought together by a game, match, or championship...it's a very unique thing.

[Morning Glory]

It really shows your lack of immaturity to have resort to saying "quite whining" because you can't even use intelligent points to explain your own contradictory arguements. anyway, here's some interesting facts that shed some light on the situation...

African Americans account for 12% of the US population
13% of drug users in US
35% of arrests for drug possesion in US
55% of convinctions for drug possesion in US
74% of prison sentances for drug possesion in US
1/4 of all black men in US are either in prison or on parole for non-violent charges
In washington, DC, Baltimore, New York, New jersey and Florida 99% of black males have arrest records
2/3 of black male high school students will be dead, disabled, or in prison before thier 13th birthday
for every black man that goes to college, three will go to prison
In the year 2000 half of the population of African Americans in the US will have gone to prison

With that in mind, please tell me how easy it is for anyone to get a good job?

[BrightStar]

2/3 of black male high school students will be dead, disabled, or in prison before thier 13th birthday

Wouldn't that place them in Middle School, not High School? **

[Morning Glory]

most states don't have seperate middle and highschools.

[Tequila Zaire]

It really shows your lack of immaturity to have resort to saying "quite whining" because you can't even use intelligent points to explain your own contradictory arguements. anyway, here's some interesting facts that shed some light on the situation...

African Americans account for 12% of the US population
13% of drug users in US
35% of arrests for drug possesion in US
55% of convinctions for drug possesion in US
74% of prison sentances for drug possesion in US
1/4 of all black men in US are either in prison or on parole for non-violent charges
In washington, DC, Baltimore, New York, New jersey and Florida 99% of black males have arrest records
2/3 of black male high school students will be dead, disabled, or in prison before thier 13th birthday
for every black man that goes to college, three will go to prison
In the year 2000 half of the population of African Americans in the US will have gone to prison

With that in mind, please tell me how easy it is for anyone to get a good job?

Ok...I'm gonna take a guess and say you meant lack of maturity...but anyhow, it is whining. "he makes too much money..blah blah blah". What can one really say to a person who feels some people make too much money off their own talents and connections? Many people around the world make "more than they should given what they do"...so I'm not seeing why anyone should support that it's unfair that they make so much money. It simply sounds like jealousy...plain and simple. I doubt any of you who feel that way would complain that you made too much money if you were in their positions.

I'm sorry but if we're gonna debate how mature this all is then bitching about sports stars making too much money takes the cake.

What exactly are you trying to prove with the statistics? That it's tough being a black man in the states? That's pretty well known so when any rise above it I don't see why one wants to fault them for it. As far as how this ties into finding a good job...what qualifies as a good job here?

If you can survive and have enough to still have some fun...that's a good job in my eyes. If you want a job that pays you insane amounts of money so you can buy anything and everything you want...well then you're gonna have to bring more to the table. Nothing is easy but nothing is impossible either if you set your mind to rising above your difficulties...but if one wants to hide behind statistics, dofficulties, and a raw deal that life handed then...then that's there right...but many rise above in spite of all that difficulty.

You either fight or die...but hell if you already think you lost then feel free to wallow in your misery. I'm sorry but I loathe people who use their hardship as excuses for their failures.

[ForrestBlack]

...I loathe people who use their hardship as excuses for their failures.

Word.

[Morning Glory]

you should be a politician, i've never heard anyone jump around so much in thier logic. your bullshit smear tactics to try and discredit me show that you're the only one making excuses for your lack of a point, accusing me of "bitching and complaining" whenever I offer any view that's counter to kissing people's asses and sucking off thier egos and not getting down on my knees and thanking the sports gods for the privalge of being able to watch them run around for two hours. then when I use facts to back up my arguements i'm "hiding behind statistics." you know if you didn't want to hear it you could've just accepted my original statement which was that Nike and the NBA won't be hurting financially if they have to pay for this law suit ( which has never yet been refuted, by the way) instead of trying to marvel us all with your brilliance by trying to pick apart every single thing that I say.

[Morning Glory]

I mean look at the alternative's to my points- the two arguments are that mothers that can't afford to pay the cost of raising thier children are sissies that complain too much, and that racism in economics of this country is ok and it's the minorities fault for not showing enough initiative. You're right, you sure showed me what's what.

[Amelia G]

Personally, I generally find watching organized sports boring. Sometimes actually being in a stadium can be exciting from a sort of contact high perspective because other people in the building are so pumped up. But it doesn't interest me much. However, it obviously interests an awful lot of other people and brings them pleasure.

I understand being a bit baffled by what pays what. I honestly feel frustrated in my day-to-day life that a lot of jobs no one knows what they pay. Like people always talk about how musicians don't make enough, when in fact, on a small local level, the musicians in a scene who are always crying poor tend to make more than the writers or photographers or clothing designers etc. who tend to lose money on what they do, as opposed to receiving a low wage.

But the fact that it is hard to find a good job, in my opinion, no way means that the people who do have good jobs should make less. Odds are that someone who makes huge bank in professional sports spent a lot of time training when other people were dating or partying or just getting to be kids in general. Odds are that they earn their paychecks. Even when a basketball player is not on the court or in the gym, he has to watch everything he does with his job in mind, from what he eats to who he associates with. Lots of people work hard to get a good sports job and don't make it, so there has to be a real payoff for the people who do.

I guess my biggest question, to anyone who feels a sports star makes too much money, is what would you do instead? Would you tax the player who has earned tons of money for his manager, his agent, his team, the stadiums he plays in, the networks he appears on, and the products he endorses? Would you tax him enough that someone with far less dedication and hard work gets a free ride?

I agree with Jax in that I certainly don't think it is the job of professional athletes to work every day of their young lives to support the children of strangers who couldn't be bothered to make sure they could support their families before making them.

[Tequila Zaire]

you should be a politician, i've never heard anyone jump around so much in thier logic. your bullshit smear tactics to try and discredit me show that you're the only one making excuses for your lack of a point, accusing me of "bitching and complaining" whenever I offer any view that's counter to kissing people's asses and sucking off thier egos and not getting down on my knees and thanking the sports gods for the privalge of being able to watch them run around for two hours. then when I use facts to back up my arguements i'm "hiding behind statistics." you know if you didn't want to hear it you could've just accepted my original statement which was that Nike and the NBA won't be hurting financially if they have to pay for this law suit ( which has never yet been refuted, by the way) instead of trying to marvel us all with your brilliance by trying to pick apart every single thing that I say.

Who's accusing you? You're proving it all on your own. Discredit you? You're making it sound like one needs to but effort into that. What facts? Cutting and pasting statistics is not exactly an amazing skill...you never even stated what they were suppose to prove. You happily went on the tagent that they are paid too much and some silly ass notion that the pro level is somehow equal to the backyard versions we've all played or do play. What else can you call it but bitching and moaning when a person complains about someone elses good fotrune and wealth? Nothing you've stated here has anything remotely close to factual arguments...just blind opinion bordering on maniacal jealousy.

You spout off statistics about how hard it is to be a black man in this country then complain they make too much when they play pro sports.


No one is being marveled by the brilliance of me or anyone else picking apart what you say...none of this is about you, only what you say. No one is aking you to get on your knees and worship sports stars...no one is asking you to change your opinions...they are mearly being challenged. Cause so far the only one who doesn't want to hear much of anything here is you.

[Morning Glory]

oh amelia, don't you know that's because your a jealous cry baby loser, and it's because you're not talented enough of a photographer that you don't make as much as an NBA star?