More trouble for Goth kids?

[Wickedanima]

On the Shooting in Minnesota:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...24-guard_x.htm

"He also said Weise cultivated a dark image that included hairdos that went radically from "flat to spiked to ... horns, like devil horns" that protruded from his head. "He was trying to look evil." "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ke-grief_x.htm

" She also said the boy had been removed from the school and tutored at home "because of his behavior." She said that with his odd dress, including a black trench coat, Weise was a disruptive presence in school and was teased."

---

Well, lets hope that this dosen't lead to another beavy of 'Marlyn Manson made me do it"....

[Ellis]

Im pretty sure this was allready covered.

[SindelChaos]

Man, they should start protesting against skinheads not goths. Actually, no they shouldn't. They should grow up and realize that some people can't take much pushing before they snap. If you're going to pester someone to no end then, you deserve what's coming to you. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not sticking up for either side, they were both in the wrong. The kid needed direction and guidence. He needed to learn to cope.

[devil13]

Man, they should start protesting against skinheads not goths.

skins are not racists. neo-nazis and the clan are.
they have been saying on the news how he was on nazi websites. I say he was very confused. he was american indian nazi (which doesnt make any sense at all), dressed like the treanchcoat mafia, he killed his grandfather before going to school, and then he goes out like a coward and takes his own life. I would say the boy wasnt the brightest retard on the little yellow bus.

[Ellis]

But at least he was a good flash animator!

[Tequila Zaire]

skins are not racists. neo-nazis and the clan are.
they have been saying on the news how he was on nazi websites. I say he was very confused. he was american indian nazi (which doesnt make any sense at all), dressed like the treanchcoat mafia, he killed his grandfather before going to school, and then he goes out like a coward and takes his own life. I would say the boy wasnt the brightest retard on the little yellow bus.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight...look I know their is or was a diffrence at some point but that line got blurred long ago. Plus the fact neo-nazi skinheads look nearly identical to these mythical non racist skin heads makes it hard to tell the diffrence.

You're not the first to say it...but it's pretty rare to run into a skinhead who isn't either a white supremacist or neo-nazi...

[Camby Savelle]

You know I wasn't going to say anything, but they partially blamed the shootings on a horrorcore rapper named Mars. It's kind of funny, because if you see the responses Mars is giving it's more like "stupid people do stupid things & everyone else looks for someone to blame."

[One Eyed Cat]

He was specifically a neo-nazi. There are also skinheads called SHARPies (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) Weise was a Nazi, period. It has nothing to do with devilocks or trenchcoats. This is the defense I would assert.

OEC

[Smudge Doll]

BREAKING NEW NEWS

the show current affair blasted a show about a grrl who murdered a fellow student, but instead of going into reasoning it was simply because she was "gothic" but she listens to ICP and wears baggy clothes that are black and has her head shaved except her bangs... not to "gothic" in my eyes... but the blast from a media source made it seem all is what we do... were all out to kill...

personally i have mixed feeling on this because if thats what they think let them, but also im affended that they can say thats all we do...

[BrightStar]

I hate how they use us as a scape goat, rather than blame some of those truly at fault, such as the politicians, horrible school systems, bad parenting, general disrespect for decent morals, and many other sources that are truly to blame. **

[tinstar]

This was obviously a very troubled kid acting out a fantasy that developed in him somewhere along the line. I can't say whether it was his family, his school, or the outside world that made that monster. Nevertheless, it was made. Kids brains are fragile and it doesn't take much for something squirrely to get in there and take root. Judging by the Flash animation they showed on TV, he appears to have been a very talented young man with a great future in the creative arts ahead of him. Too bad for him. And too bad for the other young people who had great futures and important choices to make in their own lives. And too bad for the families who loved them.

[tinstar]

I hate how they use us as a scape goat, rather than blame some of those truly at fault, such as the politicians, horrible school systems, bad parenting, general disrespect for decent morals, and many other sources that are truly to blame. **

Wow. For once, you and I are in agreement about something.

[Ichigo]

The media should just quit focusing so much on appearances, and instead focus on what the actual person is like. His father committed suicide and his mom's a vegetable after a car accident. Even though he wasn't close with his father, I'm sure that had a lot of affect on his outlook on life. Plus, this kid got made fun of all the time at school which probably made it worse. Why the hell doesn't the media talk about that being the possible cause instead of his appearance?

[BrightStar]

The media should just quit focusing so much on appearances, and instead focus on what the actual person is like. His father committed suicide and his mom's a vegetable after a car accident. Even though he wasn't close with his father, I'm sure that had a lot of affect on his outlook on life. Plus, this kid got made fun of all the time at school which probably made it worse. Why the hell doesn't the media talk about that being the possible cause instead of his appearance?

Because that doesnt sell as easily, and then the people might feel bad for blaming him, and possibly have to take some responsability for their own actions, instead of just blaming some kid they know nothing about.

Its also the kid's fault for dealing with it that way as well.

*Shrugs, and is confused, sort of. * **

[Smudge Doll]

the media im talking about wasnt about the shooting it was about a female murdering her fellow classmate... but yes i agree image and personality doesnt make them a murderer so they need to stop putting them together...

[Belladonna]

who did'nt have trouble in school? we all got picked on and pushed around. we all had those bad thoughts about killing that bullie. we came back to the real world and went on with our lives. being dark and being evil are to different things. kids sometimes wear black and do things people think are strange with their hair to try to be different. it does'nt make them "goth" "punk" or whatever. it means they are searching for who they are and maybe not finding what they seek. it sucks that if you do fit into the round hole you are an outcast. but that's not what makes one kill. he was messed up long ago and so was that chick.

[Toe Cutter]

On the bright side you could think of all the negative press as giving the young goth kids street-cred. I bet some of those dumb-ass jocks gotta be thinking "Shit! That pale, skinny mother-fucker might blow me away if lay off". Right?

[BrightStar]

On the bright side you could think of all the negative press as giving the young goth kids street-cred. I bet some of those dumb-ass jocks gotta be thinking "Shit! That pale, skinny mother-fucker might blow me away if lay off". Right?

*shrugs* **

[SindelChaos]

On the bright side you could think of all the negative press as giving the young goth kids street-cred. I bet some of those dumb-ass jocks gotta be thinking "Shit! That pale, skinny mother-fucker might blow me away if lay off". Right?

It would really surprise me if dumbass people finally get a grip and realize they have no reason to bully or tease someone because they act or look different. I mean, they didn't learn after the first time, why expect them to learn anything from this one?

I'm really surprised I got the replies I did based off one single sentence. I was being sarcastic. As you can see in the second sentence.

[Toe Cutter]

I'm really surprised I got the replies I did based off one single sentence. I was being sarcastic. As you can see in the second sentence.

Oi! It's just so easy to bag on skinheads.

[Skavian]

I say the remedy to this is to abolish schools as an institution of learning how to prey on others. I myself dropped out to homeschool myself about 3/4 of the way through my sophomore year in high school. It was right before the Columbine incident though, so I got some flak in that people thought I might be nutty enough to go on a rampage blowing people away. Honestly, I just didn't want to be like everyone else, straining hard to justify my existence on this planet by how many friends I had or what have you. I was content to just skateboard, read, and (at the time) vandalize. I suppose I was a miscreant drop-out in the eyes of some, but I know for a fact the world is much more open to those willing to determine their own education than all the propaganda would have you think. I am in higher education after all, and doing just fine (though that is hardly a barometer by which to read how well I've "succeeded," really. Just stating that high school isn't exactly a necessary step before getting into collegiate education levels).

[Morning Glory]

naw I think black hair dye is to blame. it's like it seeps into kids brains and cuts off thier anti-murder sensors.

[Skavian]

That is a plausible scientific explanation. It is just as well-defined as my "Grand Theft Auto makes children want to join the Communist party," theory.

[chloee]

It's ironic..because I read an article that the jock bullies (skateboarders too) are now totally into singling out Goths to beat up..they are really the new oppressed minority on campus.

[Morning Glory]

that's because they are stupid. maybe if they spent their time trying to do something worthwhile instead of shopping at hot topic trying to out fashion everyone else and prove who's more gothic, then thier lives wouldn't be so meaningless and sucky. it's pretty fucking ridiculous when some kid in a 200 dollar outfit is whining about how much they hate life... why don't you go volunteer at the red cross? then maybe you'd see how good you have it and maybe improve your self esteem knowing you helped out someone else as well.

[Skavian]

Jock punk skateboarders have been around for a long time. Punks range from thoughtful individuals to meatheads really, so I am not surprised that they would be beating on "goths." In a lot of ways, that may also have to do with the resemblance Goths have to New Wavers. Same old game, new name.

[devil13]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight...look I know their is or was a diffrence at some point but that line got blurred long ago. Plus the fact neo-nazi skinheads look nearly identical to these mythical non racist skin heads makes it hard to tell the diffrence.

You're not the first to say it...but it's pretty rare to run into a skinhead who isn't either a white supremacist or neo-nazi...

maybe whare you live but I was a non racist skin. I highly dought that you even know one thing about true skins so if you dont, just ask and I will school you on it.
P.S. try not to come off as a know it all about something you have no or little knowladge about.
P.P.S. what you just said about skins is pretty much the same thing this thread is talking about. you shouldnt let a few dumb asses make you jump to conclusions about every goth, skin, or whatever.

[a_small_death]

This just never seems to end does it. One person always, always, has to fuck it up for the rest of the people. Why does no one ever look to the parents or the school that just didn't give a damn to look. I think most people are just tiered of talking about it. To these people that see the signs and don't do anything, it's like talking to a fucking brick wall.

[chloee]

Jock punk skateboarders have been around for a long time. Punks range from thoughtful individuals to meatheads really, so I am not surprised that they would be beating on "goths." In a lot of ways, that may also have to do with the resemblance Goths have to New Wavers. Same old game, new name.

I was referring to this article I saw with these photo profiles-- no these guys aren't Punks at all (I was and still am one in many ways)--just jock evil psycho pricks -who were around even before New Wavers.
ttfn -chl.

[Tequila Zaire]

On the bright side you could think of all the negative press as giving the young goth kids street-cred. I bet some of those dumb-ass jocks gotta be thinking "Shit! That pale, skinny mother-fucker might blow me away if lay off". Right?

Actually no...it will only be a matter of time before they end up beating the mortal shit out of kids they THINK may end up wanting to kill them...it's just going to get worse and if "goth" kids think it's a good idea to use this as an advantage or to freak people out with the potential of violence...they they are as fucked up as everyone else.

[Tequila Zaire]

maybe whare you live but I was a non racist skin. I highly dought that you even know one thing about true skins so if you dont, just ask and I will school you on it.
P.S. try not to come off as a know it all about something you have no or little knowladge about.
P.P.S. what you just said about skins is pretty much the same thing this thread is talking about. you shouldnt let a few dumb asses make you jump to conclusions about every goth, skin, or whatever.

Oh please "school me" on this...I'm at the edge of my seat waiting to be enlightened.

How is it this always breaks down "maybe where you live" is some sort of justification? Ever think that maybe...just maybe the way skins act in your area...of how YOU acted are the minority? It's not like the Skinheads = White Racist Fucks idea is new. It's been around for quite a while and even had a catchy lil tune about it in Romber Stomper. Once you become a pop song...it's kinda safe to say the majority image won out. That image may very well be wrong...but at least in L.A. skinheads aren't by and large the peaceful non racists types. I'm not doubting you in that they exist...I've just never seen your version of it as the rule of thumb.

As far as not letting a few dumb asses ruin the image of all...it's not a few...it's a consistent image and behaviour I've run into. Do I think every pale white kid with a shaved head is a racist skinhead? No. Do I think every pale white kid with a shaved head sporting the stormtrooper look and an affinity for all things third reich is? Fuck yes.

That's by and large the version I run into...and usually it does not end well.

But hey...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here...


There is all this talk about not judging people how they're dressed and while it's a great ideal...it never changes. You may not be a whore but if you dress like one don't fault people for thinking it. You can't get pissy that they don't take the time to "get to know the real you" cause frankly...none of us have that kind of time. Much of our lives are dictated on quick judgement calls and while it's not perfect...it's realistic. What are you gonna do? Spend ages trying to see EVERY choice in your daily life from every angle possible?

The facts in school shooting speak for themselves...of the MILLIONS who go to school...only those we've heard about actually went so far as to shoot a place up. It's sad but is it all that unexpected? Are we really shocked that the kids with mental or social issues snap? That happens in daiy "adult" life all the time...like the rash of postal shootings back in the day.

The worse thing that can happen is if people of any scene or whatever take pride in it and make it heroic...then one really is asking for trouble. Just like when kids started wanting to act and dress like lil gangsta's and got shot...

If you want to act like you're a threat to the world then that's how the world will respond...and if people still want to act as though it's only the "goth" kids shooting up schools...well..then let them. It's costing them THEIR kids to think in such naive terms and if they feel comfortable with that...then fuck em. You can't protect people who want to act like idiots and put themselves in danger.

[One Eyed Cat]

People will always judge others based on appearances. I don't believe it is practical to even imagine it will ever change. To me, I think we need to bring attention to the specific types of people/circumstances that tend to make it worse. Nazi + Skinhead + "Goth" should = being ostracized by any and all who prefer the aesthetic/archetypes that are being demonized. To tolerate such people will be seen as condoning their despicable conduct. It is irrelevant to me whether bad upbringings, the media, or sociopathological ideology is the real cause of the behavior. If you want to do something about it, you have to be willing to make judgment calls and eliminate the fucktards that will inevitably flock to your scene.

OEC

[Skavian]

Sometimes my fingers smell like vagina. Sometimes they do not.

Some people's fingers smell more like vagina than my own more often. Some others have fingers that never smell like vagina.

Ergo, Michael Jackson is still king in bizarro dimension.

PS- This is Boston, not L.A.

[One Eyed Cat]

The worse thing that can happen is if people of any scene or whatever take pride in it and make it heroic...then one really is asking for trouble. Just like when kids started wanting to act and dress like lil gangsta's and got shot...

That's a good point. People using it as an attention seeking reactionary "identity" make matters infinitely worse. I was numbed into complacency over this matter due to living where noone gave a rat's ass what you looked like. The school shootings, however, have really only escalated over the last decade.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

that's what people get for choosing to follow a fashion sense that designates them as a particular subcategory. If everyone was just themselves, then it wouldn't be a problem. if you're a nice and anti-racist, knowing full well that in the general publics eyes skinhead= nazi, then if you don't want people to judge you that then don't be an architypal skinhead. does it suck that people generalise and sterotype people?yes it does. do you have a right to wonder why people think badly of you when you live up to that stereotype? not really. then you only have yourself to blame. If you really are true to yourself, and you just happen to like shaved heads and boots and braces and don't give a fuck what anyone else is doing and don't care if your'e called a skinhead or a beat nick or a hippie and don't confine yourself to labels, then why would you give a fuck what people think about some other group of people? if you want to associate yourself with those people and narrowly define yoru sense of self by group affiliation, then you're subject to all the judgements and everything else associated with that group. ( See: Republicans are stupid.)

[Morning Glory]

and people can see that. some people might assume that i'm HXC because I have gauged ears and wear adidas and girl pants. In truth I did that to my ears because I hung out with a small group of people that were into eastern spirituality and tribalism, before it ever became associated with hardcore music. I wear adidas because I am a soccer fan, and I wear girls pants because my porportions don't come in mens sizes; I don't really listen to much of that music and I don't associate msyelf with that scene. Most of the people that look down on me for that, are the people that associate with that scene and don't think i'm hardcore enough, because they are shallow and insecure and they desperatly need group acceptance because they no they'll never be hardcore enough either. people that are cool and true to themselves don't make judgements about other people, and those are the kind of people that will compliment other's when they see something about them that they also like. Most of the people here are like that. this was a rant, sorry, but it was sort of on topic about the nature of generalising and people's attitudes, mostly among the subculture.

[One Eyed Cat]

and people can see that. some people might assume that i'm HXC because I have gauged ears and wear adidas and girl pants. In truth I did that to my ears because I hung out with a small group of people that were into eastern spirituality and tribalism, before it ever became associated with hardcore music. I wear adidas because I am a soccer fan, and I wear girls pants because my porportions don't come in mens sizes; I don't really listen to much of that music and I don't associate msyelf with that scene. Most of the people that look down on me for that, are the people that associate with that scene and don't think i'm hardcore enough, because they are shallow and insecure and they desperatly need group acceptance because they no they'll never be hardcore enough either. people that are cool and true to themselves don't make judgements about other people, and those are the kind of people that will compliment other's when they see something about them that they also like. Most of the people here are like that. this was a rant, sorry, but it was sort of on topic about the nature of generalising and people's attitudes, mostly among the subculture.

I agree with your statement, but I think you have to be weary of the folks who seem to have a lot of the warning signs Weise had. I have never consistently been a part of any "scene", most just annoy me.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

well I guess if someone is saying that hitler is really cool and like serious about it, then maybe that person should be psychologically evaluated, but that doesn't really have anything to do with being goth or whatever.

[One Eyed Cat]

well I guess if someone is saying that hitler is really cool and like serious about it, then maybe that person should be psychologically evaluated, but that doesn't really have anything to do with being goth or whatever.

Of course it doesn't. I've just noticed these types forcing that connection to be made for years now.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

yeah well of course it's always been the staple of our society to blame what is generally seen as not being part of the establishment as the cause of all of societies problems, ESPECIALLY if it's the establishment itself that's the problem which can't be changed becsaue it would undermine the fundementals of what that society supposedly stands for, or at least what those in power do.

like take the columbine shooting. can we put the blame the president and the military industry, the NRA and gun enthusiasts, for icniting violence in society throught the use of thier violent means? of course not because they are patriots to thier country and part of the system. can we blame parents and the education system and the social structure of a community? no, because how could we go about changing that, without totally changing our views on what it had previously meant to make someone a functioning member of society, even a harder challenge then removing the power structure. can we blame video games and marilyn manson? Yes, because it's nothing to ban those things, and then pretend the problem has gone away.