Dirty Rotten Filthy Stinking Rich - Music Industry File Sharing

[Morning Glory]

Sure, we can do everything on our own. We have the money to do it. Do we want to? HELL no.

so what, you're going to spend someone elses money instead of yours? how is that not stealing?

Sure, I have the money to buy your cd's. Do I want to (when I can download them for free)? HELL no.

with that attitude you do very little to convince people to give a shit about musicians and not to fileshare.

[Tequila Zaire]

Youre right, noone has heard of us. We have no record out, and are still working on writing. But we have always promoted to check out our music, give free downloads, etc. Once we are putting 50,000 in the band, thats different. We should have the CHOICE to let people access our music for free. We put some of our songs up, and if you like them great, if you dont great. Im in it for the money, plain and simple. Music is not my life. If I dont start making money before my deadline, even with the people we are working with, Im done with it. I have my own business plan that WILL be successful, but am trying the music thing since I have a voice. We are not a punk/goth/whatever band. We are commercial, and working with one of the biggest names in music today. Sure, we can do everything on our own. We have the money to do it. Do we want to? HELL no. Im a sellout. If I have a talent, I want to make money with it. Its no different than having any other job. we wouldnt do all this to stay local, wed buy onto bigger acts. Its all in the business. You want to make it, 9 times out of 10 you have to have money and someone you know in the industry. We have both. We want to make money. I still do not like file sharing, I think its stealing.

Well since this is a stricly commercial venture and not about art...well then theft will have to be dealt with provided people want it. If they want it bad enough to steal it then some will want it bad enough to pay for it...you COULD download all the stuff Metallica ever did...but for some odd reason people still buy their albums.

Personally I don't know why anyone would do either but hey...people are strange.

People tend not to share stuff no one wants.

[Amethyst]

I think you could define filthy rich on that base how you have made your money or and how you spend it. I don't think it's wrong to make much money with easy way. If you happend to get some new idea that makes easy money there's nothing wrong as long it's not a new harm or money hole to other people. Not sure if I explained that clearly.
And how you use your money. Everyone has right to show they have money if they have need for it. But if you use money that way it offends other people or their rights, that's being filthy rich.

[Jax]

so what, you're going to spend someone elses money instead of yours? how is that not stealing?

Sure, I have the money to buy your cd's. Do I want to (when I can download them for free)? HELL no.

with that attitude you do very little to convince people to give a shit about musicians and not to fileshare.

Umm, I dont think you get how the music industry works. Why pay everything ourselves, tours for years and years and barely survive on the road? We did this to either get signed or not, make money or not. Thats the way it is. We work hard for every penny we earn.

[karyn]

if someone is investing in Jax it is because they either like her or think she has a viable product. she is not stealing unless she misrepresents what she can do for the investor. there is already a complex system of laws governing this successfully.

[Jax]

Well since this is a stricly commercial venture and not about art...well then theft will have to be dealt with provided people want it. If they want it bad enough to steal it then some will want it bad enough to pay for it...you COULD download all the stuff Metallica ever did...but for some odd reason people still buy their albums.

Personally I don't know why anyone would do either but hey...people are strange.

People tend not to share stuff no one wants.

I think people place too much value in the word art. Art is commercial. Music is commercial. Music is art. Why shouldnt anyone not be able to say YES, we want to make money with our music? If its in demand, and people will pay you for your talent just like any other 'artist', sure you have to deal with theft. I just said I didnt like it. Thats my opinion. Art is still working your ass off, and any money one can make from that should.

[Tequila Zaire]

Not all art is commercial though, not all art generates a profit, and a good chunk of it manages to only make money or gain attention after the creator is dead. It's not that making money off art is bad...it's needed really...but in this particular case "theft" is not all that clear cut given the technology involved was not created for it and the reality is people have been doing such actions since forever...me sharing a dozen songs seems to be theft yet when I put them on mix CD's and gave them away to friends it was sharing. In an age where mass music and mass "friends" is the reality...the industry needs to catch up...not try to weigh the modern world down. More htan ever people have lists of contacts miles long...so sharing stuff with them or even total strangers is not only viable...but expected in some way.

[karyn]

Not all art is commercial though, not all art generates a profit, and a good chunk of it manages to only make money or gain attention after the creator is dead. It's not that making money off art is bad...it's needed really...but in this particular case "theft" is not all that clear cut given the technology involved was not created for it and the reality is people have been doing such actions since forever...me sharing a dozen songs seems to be theft yet when I put them on mix CD's and gave them away to friends it was sharing. In an age where mass music and mass "friends" is the reality...the industry needs to catch up...not try to weigh the modern world down. More htan ever people have lists of contacts miles long...so sharing stuff with them or even total strangers is not only viable...but expected in some way.

i hate stealing. i don't think it matters whether the artist is trying to make money off his or her work. stealing is stealing.

steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

whether or not people are fencing what they steal does not determine whether it was stealing or not.

[bre.star]

Ever been to the home of someone who had a gold or platinum album ten years ago? Odds are that that album is not paying for much today. The money comes fast, but most people don't know how to save it or invest it. They don't know how to make it last. Hell, I wouldn't know and I think I'm more even-keeled than the average drummer.

Yes, a lot of musicians are greedy and they try to get everyone around them to do things for them for free, while they are getting paid, and I understand why there is a backlash against that and people do not want to pay them.

I just am uncomfortable with people using the musician's supposed wealth as an excuse for theft without any measure for what filthy rich even means. That encourages a nation of whiners and complainers with secret bank accounts and I find that unpleasant.

And, let's face it, you don't want the most recent Jessica Simpson album and that is not what you are downloading.

a good point indeed, i still believe in p2p networking.... theres a lot of music out there that cannot be found anywhere other than the internet...

[Tequila Zaire]

i hate stealing. i don't think it matters whether the artist is trying to make money off his or her work. stealing is stealing.

steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

whether or not people are fencing what they steal does not determine whether it was stealing or not.

Look, one can get on the moral high horse all they want about stealing...but the fact remains the actions that occur on P2P programs occured well before their implementation and popularity...where were these artists and the RIAA when blank tapes and CD's were used to do the SAME FUCKING THING? The scale has gotton bigger as the world has gotten smaller...to NOW say this is "stealing" is revisionist bullshit and grossly out of touch with the modern world. You can't crash in saying old rules apply when they were broken to begin with...

When consumers are now the main "thieves"...maybe it's time to redefine the term and see the truth of how people use media instead of making them use it in only ONE manner.

Either way...by sheer numbers and cheap technology..those against file sharing haven't got a prayer...cause of they somehow think technology wars are won in the courtroom...they are dead wrong.

You can't criminalize every action that violates laws that in and of themselves violate previous ones. The DMCA is a testemant to that...it pissed all over consumer rights to protect the RIAA and MPAA...

It sharing ONE file manages to hurt them...then great. Fact remains they are still afloat and while the MPAA and it's industry moved forward the RIAA and the industry it represents has gone backwards...so at this point...fuck em. They are drowning themselves far more than the weight of file sharing ever could.

It's 2005 and their main product ships on a now ancient and limited technology...how can ANYONE be expected to respect that?

[Kidthorazine]

Look, one can get on the moral high horse all they want about stealing...but the fact remains the actions that occur on P2P programs occured well before their implementation and popularity...where were these artists and the RIAA when blank tapes and CD's were used to do the SAME FUCKING THING? The scale has gotton bigger as the world has gotten smaller...to NOW say this is "stealing" is revisionist bullshit and grossly out of touch with the modern world. You can't crash in saying old rules apply when they were broken to begin with...

When consumers are now the main "thieves"...maybe it's time to redefine the term and see the truth of how people use media instead of making them use it in only ONE manner.

Either way...by sheer numbers and cheap technology..those against file sharing haven't got a prayer...cause of they somehow think technology wars are won in the courtroom...they are dead wrong.

You can't criminalize every action that violates laws that in and of themselves violate previous ones. The DMCA is a testemant to that...it pissed all over consumer rights to protect the RIAA and MPAA...

It sharing ONE file manages to hurt them...then great. Fact remains they are still afloat and while the MPAA and it's industry moved forward the RIAA and the industry it represents has gone backwards...so at this point...fuck em. They are drowning themselves far more than the weight of file sharing ever could.

It's 2005 and their main product ships on a now ancient and limited technology...how can ANYONE be expected to respect that?

While i agree with you on most points i still dont think CDs and any other media are dated and wont be phased out for some time also many record companies also offer most of their catalouges as mp3s available for purchase for slightly cheaper prices i personally hate mp3 players though after some bad experiences so i still stick wth hard media i mean look out how long its taken to phase out VHS and it still hasnt completely happened yet

[karyn]

Look, one can get on the moral high horse all they want about stealing...but the fact remains the actions that occur on P2P programs occured well before their implementation and popularity...where were these artists and the RIAA when blank tapes and CD's were used to do the SAME FUCKING THING? The scale has gotton bigger as the world has gotten smaller...to NOW say this is "stealing" is revisionist bullshit and grossly out of touch with the modern world. You can't crash in saying old rules apply when they were broken to begin with...

When consumers are now the main "thieves"...maybe it's time to redefine the term and see the truth of how people use media instead of making them use it in only ONE manner.

Either way...by sheer numbers and cheap technology..those against file sharing haven't got a prayer...cause of they somehow think technology wars are won in the courtroom...they are dead wrong.

You can't criminalize every action that violates laws that in and of themselves violate previous ones. The DMCA is a testemant to that...it pissed all over consumer rights to protect the RIAA and MPAA...

It sharing ONE file manages to hurt them...then great. Fact remains they are still afloat and while the MPAA and it's industry moved forward the RIAA and the industry it represents has gone backwards...so at this point...fuck em. They are drowning themselves far more than the weight of file sharing ever could.

It's 2005 and their main product ships on a now ancient and limited technology...how can ANYONE be expected to respect that?

business takes petty larceny less seriously than grand larceny but that doesn't mean that only one of those is larceny and a shopkeeper who does not call the police for the theft of a pack of gum is then not allowed to call them for the theft of every snack in the store.

[devil13]

Hay Jax thanx for the answers to my questions. I do see your side of it but more so I lean the other way about it. By the way yesterday morning Dicky Barret from the Bostones was talking about the subject on his morning radio show and thats what he had to say about it. that he wasnt in it for the money he was in it for the love of music and that he felt privlidged to be able to share that love for music with others. if millions of people(who may not have ever known about your band before) are hearing you music, how is that a bad thing? I tend to agree with that kind of thinking.

[Tequila Zaire]

While i agree with you on most points i still dont think CDs and any other media are dated and wont be phased out for some time also many record companies also offer most of their catalouges as mp3s available for purchase for slightly cheaper prices i personally hate mp3 players though after some bad experiences so i still stick wth hard media i mean look out how long its taken to phase out VHS and it still hasnt completely happened yet

Who in their right mind would buy a VHS today in a modern country? CD's are outdated and well past the age of retirement...I don't want mp3's to be the modern replacement...but 5.1 music SHOULD be the standard already...the RIAA and those they represent are dragging their feet and at this point they should be cut off if they have not plans to use them.

[Tequila Zaire]

business takes petty larceny less seriously than grand larceny but that doesn't mean that only one of those is larceny and a shopkeeper who does not call the police for the theft of a pack of gum is then not allowed to call them for the theft of every snack in the store.

Yet again...if the daily actions of your customers is now seen as theft...the problem is with the seller...not the buyer.

They can't FORCE people to buy CD's again...so they can either whine that everyone is stealing or deal with it effectively by making their aged, obsolete, and plain ugly product more appealing.

[devil13]

earlier you said 'the more you get heard the more money you will make in the long run' and said that musicians should play lots of free shows and by your reasoning then the musicians who did that should be the richest but they are not.

the hendrix estate is a big dollar industry unto itself

how do you know how much fugazi makes from dischord?

how do you know whether jello is a millionaire?

i think the dead kennedys and fugazi deserve to be millionaires for their accomplishments but i do not know if they are and i do not believe you know either. i know the answer on the hendrix estate and you do no so it is difficult to believe you know any actual facts.

yea thats called sef promotion most bands do that. by my reasoning if you dont promote you dont get people to buy your shit. sorry but I never said anything about knowing exactly how much any of them made or make. Like I said before the Hendrix estate is now but not when he was alive. Also I am 33 years old and was going to punk shows when I was about 14 years old. When I was 13 I used to walk past SST records(back when they first started) and the people that worked there used to give me all kinds of promotional stuff. Its safe to say I do know a lil bit about a few things but to have a kindergoth from the O.C. try to tell me I dont. well Im not just going to take that.

[Kidthorazine]

Who in their right mind would buy a VHS today in a modern country? CD's are outdated and well past the age of retirement...I don't want mp3's to be the modern replacement...but 5.1 music SHOULD be the standard already...the RIAA and those they represent are dragging their feet and at this point they should be cut off if they have not plans to use them.

5.1 music isnt the standard because its too damned expensive to get all the crap you need for a 5.1 system not to mention it isnt very portable

[karyn]

yea thats called sef promotion most bands do that. by my reasoning if you dont promote you dont get people to buy your shit. sorry but I never said anything about knowing exactly how much any of them made or make. Like I said before the Hendrix estate is now but not when he was alive. Also I am 33 years old and was going to punk shows when I was about 14 years old. When I was 13 I used to walk past SST records(back when they first started) and the people that worked there used to give me all kinds of promotional stuff. Its safe to say I do know a lil bit about a few things but to have a kindergoth from the O.C. try to tell me I dont. well Im not just going to take that.

i'm not from o.c. i just live here now. i had an opportunity to invest in real estate i thought would be a good bet and it was okay for my job. look at my profile. not sure what your age has to do with your point but do i sound like i am younger than you?

as you know so much how many sst records have you paid money for because you loved their promotional stuff so much? or did you buy a black flag skateboard? how profitable is sst now?

[devil13]

i'm not from o.c. i just live here now. i had an opportunity to invest in real estate i thought would be a good bet and it was okay for my job. look at my profile. not sure what your age has to do with your point but do i sound like i am younger than you?

as you know so much how many sst records have you paid money for because you loved their promotional stuff so much? or did you buy a black flag skateboard? how profitable is sst now?

meaning I didnt just wake up yesteday and buy a black flag shirt at the mall. I have been into it for a lil while. didnt assume that you where younger in age. and as you know so much why dont you tell me how Henry Rollins is doing? because last time I saw anythang about him or SST records he was driving around in a Hummer and as you know those arent cheap. would I call him filthy rich? no, but he is doing ok for himself wouldnt you say? and I didnt even have to look at his taxes to come to that conclusion. and yes I did buy stuff from those free promotions.

[Tequila Zaire]

5.1 music isnt the standard because its too damned expensive to get all the crap you need for a 5.1 system not to mention it isnt very portable

Untrue on both counts...It's becoming far cheaper than ever. The skill to make it work is no worse than when surround and stereo came into play.

Also portable 5.1 is well under way...headphones from Japan have been able to duplicate it and a recent "1 speaker" 5.1 won the CES best of show award.

5.1 NEEDS to be the standard and it needs to happen NOW.

Stereo was great...but it's time to move on.

[OliX]

you know that vinyl is made from gasoline right?

well... today you have vinyls made from synthetic materials... so... we may stay without gasoline very soon but not without vinyls

[CarnalxKiss]

if you dont get up in the morning and say...*i love what im doing so much, im willing to do it for very little money or for free...then you are no better than those who trail off to work every day hating every hour. Im a nurse, my husband is a cop...we are public servants...we knew that when we entered our fields it was to help ppl not to be rich. I give away free medical advice whenever i can..my husband helps with law queries when asked...we dont charge a fee...like a true musician...we do it..as an extension of our souls....i personally dont want to buy a cd from a person whose only goal in their music..is to sellout and get rich quick...we all know cd's dont bring in the money anyways...the concerts do...and with noone knowing about the band....noone comes to the gate to buy tickets and merchandise..I have been a professional vocalist for 15 years now.. i get paid several hundred dollars when i do a gig....i have a demo.. i do not want fame.. i live to sing....end of story...i know how the industry works... i had my shot (twice) and i passed it over...for my family......just a thought...instead of battering ppl for p2p picking...think of it as free publicity....

[devil13]

if you dont get up in the morning and say...*i love what im doing so much, im willing to do it for very little money or for free...then you are no better than those who trail off to work every day hating every hour. Im a nurse, my husband is a cop...we are public servants...we knew that when we entered our fields it was to help ppl not to be rich. I give away free medical advice whenever i can..my husband helps with law queries when asked...we dont charge a fee...like a true musician...we do it..as an extension of our souls....i personally dont want to buy a cd from a person whose only goal in their music..is to sellout and get rich quick...we all know cd's dont bring in the money anyways...the concerts do...and with noone knowing about the band....noone comes to the gate to buy tickets and merchandise..I have been a professional vocalist for 15 years now.. i get paid several hundred dollars when i do a gig....i have a demo.. i do not want fame.. i live to sing....end of story...i know how the industry works... i had my shot (twice) and i passed it over...for my family......just a thought...instead of battering ppl for p2p picking...think of it as free publicity....

applause all around

[Kidthorazine]

if you dont get up in the morning and say...*i love what im doing so much, im willing to do it for very little money or for free...then you are no better than those who trail off to work every day hating every hour. Im a nurse, my husband is a cop...we are public servants...we knew that when we entered our fields it was to help ppl not to be rich. I give away free medical advice whenever i can..my husband helps with law queries when asked...we dont charge a fee...like a true musician...we do it..as an extension of our souls....i personally dont want to buy a cd from a person whose only goal in their music..is to sellout and get rich quick...we all know cd's dont bring in the money anyways...the concerts do...and with noone knowing about the band....noone comes to the gate to buy tickets and merchandise..I have been a professional vocalist for 15 years now.. i get paid several hundred dollars when i do a gig....i have a demo.. i do not want fame.. i live to sing....end of story...i know how the industry works... i had my shot (twice) and i passed it over...for my family......just a thought...instead of battering ppl for p2p picking...think of it as free publicity....

Exactly i think a lot of big rock stars start out like this and then they become rich and it all changes

[devil13]

i'm not from o.c. i just live here now.

to have a kindergoth from the O.C. try to tell me I dont. well Im not just going to take that.

by the way I did read your bio and it says "the O.C. yes that OC fuck you" and since you live there, OC kindergoths are the kids who are to young to go to clubs so they buy yearly passes to disneyland and hang out there

[Kidthorazine]

Untrue on both counts...It's becoming far cheaper than ever. The skill to make it work is no worse than when surround and stereo came into play.

Also portable 5.1 is well under way...headphones from Japan have been able to duplicate it and a recent "1 speaker" 5.1 won the CES best of show award.

5.1 NEEDS to be the standard and it needs to happen NOW.

Stereo was great...but it's time to move on.

How the hell does portable 5.1 work id love to see that but i personally think 5.1 only works with a full set of speakers and a sub
and all that stuff is still pretty expensive if you want quality

[Tequila Zaire]

How the hell does portable 5.1 work id love to see that but i personally think 5.1 only works with a full set of speakers and a sub
and all that stuff is still pretty expensive if you want quality

You have to remember the major thing about how we hear...through 2 ears.

It's possible to replicate it without needing 5 speakers and a sub...It's quite impressive and it should be making a stronger impression the market in the next few years. it was all theory untill like I stated above...the headphones and "1 speaker" home theatre hit...it's ever evolving and working quite well...actually they work VERY well.

[karyn]

by the way I did read your bio and it says "the O.C. yes that OC fuck you" and since you live there, OC kindergoths are the kids who are to young to go to clubs so they buy yearly passes to disneyland and hang out there

and what about my profile makes you think i am a "kid" who is "to young to go to clubs so they buy yearly passes to disneyland and hang out there"?

[Jax]

Hay Jax thanx for the answers to my questions. I do see your side of it but more so I lean the other way about it. By the way yesterday morning Dicky Barret from the Bostones was talking about the subject on his morning radio show and thats what he had to say about it. that he wasnt in it for the money he was in it for the love of music and that he felt privlidged to be able to share that love for music with others. if millions of people(who may not have ever known about your band before) are hearing you music, how is that a bad thing? I tend to agree with that kind of thinking.

Those people can simply go to our website and download the music for free. The difference is, we are choosing to give them to you.

[Jax]

yea thats called sef promotion most bands do that. by my reasoning if you dont promote you dont get people to buy your shit. sorry but I never said anything about knowing exactly how much any of them made or make. Like I said before the Hendrix estate is now but not when he was alive. Also I am 33 years old and was going to punk shows when I was about 14 years old. When I was 13 I used to walk past SST records(back when they first started) and the people that worked there used to give me all kinds of promotional stuff. Its safe to say I do know a lil bit about a few things but to have a kindergoth from the O.C. try to tell me I dont. well Im not just going to take that.

Living in OC and being from OC are two very different things. I think its simple minded to base anyones knowledge on where they live. *shrug*

[Tequila Zaire]

Living in OC and being from OC are two very different things. I think its simple minded to base anyones knowledge on where they live. *shrug*

Plus OC is much bigger than people seem to want to admit.

[incog]

if you dont get up in the morning and say...*i love what im doing so much, im willing to do it for very little money or for free...then you are no better than those who trail off to work every day hating every hour. Im a nurse, my husband is a cop...we are public servants...we knew that when we entered our fields it was to help ppl not to be rich. I give away free medical advice whenever i can..my husband helps with law queries when asked...we dont charge a fee...like a true musician...we do it..as an extension of our souls....i personally dont want to buy a cd from a person whose only goal in their music..is to sellout and get rich quick...we all know cd's dont bring in the money anyways...the concerts do...and with noone knowing about the band....noone comes to the gate to buy tickets and merchandise..I have been a professional vocalist for 15 years now.. i get paid several hundred dollars when i do a gig....i have a demo.. i do not want fame.. i live to sing....end of story...i know how the industry works... i had my shot (twice) and i passed it over...for my family......just a thought...instead of battering ppl for p2p picking...think of it as free publicity....

I am not surprised you are a nurse. Everything you post makes you come across as a warm and healing person. A thing which is different about a profession is how long you can do it for. You say you are generous and I believe it because you really seem like a generous person but you can make a living from being a nurse year after year.

Something a lot of people don't think about though is how short the earning years are for most musicians, especially in terms of touring. My body can stand the occasional stereo-blasting coke-fueled all night threesome these days but not that well. The reason I am comfortable today is because I budgeted and did not get some of the flashy things my friends did and I set aside an amount to put up my nose and never went over that dollar amount. I still make money today because I wrote some songs that a lot of people liked but I am really not physically up to touring on a large scale any more. No one lives forever and it would be very hard for someone like me to try to do an office job after having done the rock thing. Even if it were a good office job I expect that people would treat me like a loser even though fame does not pay the rent.

[Jax]

Plus OC is much bigger than people seem to want to admit.

Yep. I live in OC and Im far from any insulting name that has been thrown as a generalization. ive paid my street dues, my 'punk rock' (haha) dues, whatever anyone whos so 'punk' wants to call it. And I live in OC. OMG, Im soo not punk RAWK.

[Jax]

I am not surprised you are a nurse. Everything you post makes you come across as a warm and healing person. A thing which is different about a profession is how long you can do it for. You say you are generous and I believe it because you really seem like a generous person but you can make a living from being a nurse year after year.

Something a lot of people don't think about though is how short the earning years are for most musicians, especially in terms of touring. My body can stand the occasional stereo-blasting coke-fueled all night threesome these days but not that well. The reason I am comfortable today is because I budgeted and did not get some of the flashy things my friends did and I set aside an amount to put up my nose and never went over that dollar amount. I still make money today because I wrote some songs that a lot of people liked but I am really not physically up to touring on a large scale any more. No one lives forever and it would be very hard for someone like me to try to do an office job after having done the rock thing. Even if it were a good office job I expect that people would treat me like a loser even though fame does not pay the rent.

Thank you for pointing that out. Musicians usually and IF they make money, make it in a very short amount of time. They still have the rest of their lives to think about.

[devil13]

and what about my profile makes you think i am a "kid" who is "to young to go to clubs so they buy yearly passes to disneyland and hang out there"?

didnt say you where. It was more of an OC thing thats all. I just like poking fun at the OC

[devil13]

Living in OC and being from OC are two very different things. I think its simple minded to base anyones knowledge on where they live. *shrug*

sorry but she did start all this by calling me an accountant. a banker or stockbrocker I could handle, but an accountant. thems fightin words.

[Jax]

sorry but she did start all this by calling me an accountant. a banker or stockbrocker I could handle, but an accountant. thems fightin words.

ROF.

[Amelia G]

Allow me to reiterate. I appreciate everyone's commentary, but I want to make sure the mood here stays balanced, so:

Okay, I'm pleased for this dialogue to continue and I'm sure the topic will come up again and again, but I'd like to request that Forrest, Tequila, Jax, karyn, and devil13 all start a thread about something entertaining in a nonincendiary way about something they like before resuming this debate.

[incog]

No reason to kill an interesting discussion because a few of us got a little incendiary.

[Mindgames]

Put 'file sharing' in the topic of a thread and there's no way it won't become incendiary as we've got members on both sides of the fence who'll defend their position until the last grandmother is shot for downloading Ice T compilations.

(not by the RIAA of course, but by neighbors with taste).