Ya Gotta Love The NRA

[devil13]

Nugent Tells Fellow NRAers to Get 'Hardcore'
Former Rocker Reminds Members to 'Remember the Alamo'

HOUSTON (April 17) - With an assault weapon in each hand, rocker and gun rights advocate Ted Nugent urged National Rifle Association members to be "hardcore, radical extremists demanding the right to self defense."

Speaking at the NRA's annual convention Saturday, Nugent said each NRA member should try to enroll 10 new members over the next year and associate only with other members.

"Let's next year sit here and say, 'Holy smokes, the NRA has 40 million members now,"' he said. "No one is allowed at our barbecues unless they are an NRA member. Do that in your life."

Nugent sang and played a guitar painted with red and white stripes for the crowd at Houston's downtown convention center.

He drew the most cheers when he told gun owners they should never give up their right to bear arms and should use their guns to protect themselves if needed.

"Remember the Alamo! Shoot 'em!" he screamed to applause. "To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want 'em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot 'em."


04/17/05 13:27 EDT

[Ellis]

Ted Nugent is the man.
If you doubt him, kill yourself.

[ForrestBlack]

An armed society is a polite society.

[Kidthorazine]

Now im all for the right to bear arms to a certain extent (i think civillians being able to eassily access assault weapons is stupid and dangerous) but Ted and the rest of the NRA are just a little too iver the top

[Ellis]

Now im all for the right to bear arms to a certain extent (i think civillians being able to eassily access assault weapons is stupid and dangerous) but Ted and the rest of the NRA are just a little too iver the top

NONONONONONO.
Most NRA members are reasonable. Ted is a bit over the top, yes, but its because he doesnt know any other way. HE WROTE A SONG CALLED WANGO TANGO and another called Wang bang Sweet Poon Tang.
Give the man a break, and dont assume that all members are like him
(An entire club of gun-toting metal stars? Scary)

[TheQuietPlace]

Nugent = <3

[ForrestBlack]

Now im all for the right to bear arms to a certain extent (i think civillians being able to eassily access assault weapons is stupid and dangerous) but Ted and the rest of the NRA are just a little too iver the top

Yeah, I actually agree about them being over the top. I was a member of the NRA but their mailings started getting kinda bizarro. I'm very strong on gun ownership rights, but that doesn't mean I'm on board for every other right wing platform. They made a lot of assumptions about other things you as an NRA member must also think and frankly, some of them were pretty far from what I think. It's a bit of a shame because I really feel that the core of the association has done some really great things, but they should be more careful about being used as a tool for an agenda not embraced by many gun owners.

I honestly think it should be National Rifle Association, not National Rightwing Association.

[KilLAtomiK]

when the king of england comes knocking at your door asking to pay your tea and sugar tax youl be gald you got your fully automatic rifle

[pagan]

I still stand behind the NRA. Some are over the top and I don't agree with them. Still I support our rights.

[devil13]

I still stand behind the NRA.

yea because ya might get shot if you stand in front of them

[Kidthorazine]

I still stand behind the NRA. Some are over the top and I don't agree with them. Still I support our rights.

supporting our rights is one thing but the NRA as a whole seems to have a radical right-wing agenda

[ForrestBlack]

supporting our rights is one thing but the NRA as a whole seems to have a radical right-wing agenda

I wonder if folks shouldn't write in and express their views, rather than just bail. It seems a shame to give up a good organization to the extremists just because some squeaky (and perhaps wobbly) wheels acquired the access to push agenda's not shared by the majority of gun ownership supporters.

[Kidthorazine]

I wonder if folks shouldn't write in and express their views, rather than just bail. It seems a shame to give up a good organization to the extremists just because some squeaky (and perhaps wobbly) wheels acquired the access to push agenda's not shared by the majority of gun ownership supporters.

this is true but it seems that the majority of NRA members share a good deal of support for the right wing agenda and th majority tends to sway the group

[ForrestBlack]

this is true but it seems that the majority of NRA members share a good deal of support for the right wing agenda and th majority tends to sway the group

Hmmm... I wonder if it's time for a new, possibly more centrist organization.

[Kidthorazine]

that would be nice

[devil13]

Hmmm... I wonder if it's time for a new, possibly more centrist organization.

how about gays for guns or firearms and fornication
just a thought

[Tequila Zaire]

this is true but it seems that the majority of NRA members share a good deal of support for the right wing agenda and th majority tends to sway the group

Well given that the left tends to push anti-gun laws and legislation can you blame them? I can understand gun control but not a disarming of a society...that's never good.

I do despise those who can afford private security and live in gated communities with security guards telling me I can't have a gun to protect myself.

I still remember in high school being pulled over and held at gunpoint by fucking rent a cops for being in the "wrong neighborhood"...seems the "minorities out by sundown" still applies in some places. The sad part is we where there due to a drafting class (sudying modern home design that semester) and we were driving back from a constuction site in this ultra rich section of Orange County...needless to say we never wandered around their ever again. Though the construction company that was sponsoring the class so to speak did appologize to us...but when you have a trigger happy idiot pointing a gun at you...it's kinda pointless to appologize...we were angry as fuck for weeks.

If I could afford to live in THAT kinda place well hell...I wouldn't need a gun...but I can't. The guns around the homes I lived in were because break ins and robberies occured in the area all too frequently.

Funny thing is...the NRA and gun shows I've been too...no hassles or problems...ever. Even when I talk to the milita guys...hell even the white supremacists that show up sometimes give me no gripes. I remember talking to this one guy for an hour or so about some WW2 stuff for sale (this was then you could easily buy Thompsons, MG42's, etc.) mid way through our conversation I noticed his SS tatoo's on his trigger fingers. Should have put two and two together when his focus was mainly on the german forces and weaponry.

So in a room full of people with guns and political views that range from centrist to insane...sportsman to collector...psycho to hunter...I had no problems.

Yet when I went to the mall later that day to catch a movie and killed time looking at assorted stuff in stores I was watched like hawk and hassled by security.

If that's a gun free society...fuck it...I'll keep my AR-15.

[Kidthorazine]

Well given that the left tends to push anti-gun laws and legislation can you blame them? I can understand gun control but not a disarming of a society...that's never good.

I do despise those who can afford private security and live in gated communities with security guards telling me I can't have a gun to protect myself.

I still remember in high school being pulled over and held at gunpoint by fucking rent a cops for being in the "wrong neighborhood"...seems the "minorities out by sundown" still applies in some places. The sad part is we where there due to a drafting class (sudying modern home design that semester) and we were driving back from a constuction site in this ultra rich section of Orange County...needless to say we never wandered around their ever again. Though the construction company that was sponsoring the class so to speak did appologize to us...but when you have a trigger happy idiot pointing a gun at you...it's kinda pointless to appologize...we were angry as fuck for weeks.

If I could afford to live in THAT kinda place well hell...I wouldn't need a gun...but I can't. The guns around the homes I lived in were because break ins and robberies occured in the area all too frequently.

Funny thing is...the NRA and gun shows I've been too...no hassles or problems...ever. Even when I talk to the milita guys...hell even the white supremacists that show up sometimes give me no gripes. I remember talking to this one guy for an hour or so about some WW2 stuff for sale (this was then you could easily buy Thompsons, MG42's, etc.) mid way through our conversation I noticed his SS tatoo's on his trigger fingers. Should have put two and two together when his focus was mainly on the german forces and weaponry.

So in a room full of people with guns and political views that range from centrist to insane...sportsman to collector...psycho to hunter...I had no problems.

Yet when I went to the mall later that day to catch a movie and killed time looking at assorted stuff in stores I was watched like hawk and hassled by security.

If that's a gun free society...fuck it...I'll keep my AR-15.

It is true that some liberals want gun free society but most dont want that they want people to have handguns for self-deffense and shotguns and rifles for hunting the main emphasis in mainstream gun control is keeping high power assualt weapons off the market (i still cant see why someone would want want one unless they where a collector (which has always been allowed under strict conditions overseen by the ATF) or they are planning to off someone which is of course highly illegal and almost never a good thing for society) the other pourpose of gun control is to keep guns away from criminals now there are quite a few NRA people who agree with this but there are also quite a few who are so far right that they dont give a fuck about it and theese people are the problem sadly thay are the most outspoken and prominent members of the NRA.

[Morning Glory]

didn't ted nugent like fuck a 13 year old?

anyway,the NRA is inflammatory and reactionary. If they simply believed in upholding thier right to own a weapon, then they'd do just that and keep them in thier homes for protection instead of forming a big organisation, advocating extremism and militias and vigilantism and doing shit like going to colorado and holding a pro gun rally in the same week that the columbine highschool shootings took place, and basically getting in peoples faces and trying to piss them off. Face it, they aren't just content with owning guns, they are looking for any excuse to USE those guns.

[Tequila Zaire]

I made a few "bad choices" in my past...and I can say without hesitation...criminals do not buy guns legally. It's what the black market is for. Police know this, politicians know this, even liberals know this...but the political gold the issue is worth keeps it going...and it does nothing good.

As far as why anyone would want a high powered rifle...same reason people want insanely fast cars, bikes, dangerous pets, and dangerous women...they offer a sensation and fun that "safe" things can't.

Shooting a typical handgun for sport is fun and all...but firing a 50 cal. sniper rifle is like having intense and poweful sex...being said "no you can't have that" only makes me want what I already loved even more.

That's what non gun lovers don't get...it's not the destructive nature that is the only draw it's the whole array of emotion it stirs. To be blunt it's like anything with some power behind it...it's just more fun.

I wish I could still buy an MG 42...I've wanted one since I was a kid and would kill baby jesus to get my hands on one.

[Morning Glory]

hey dude, just because you have a small dick or whatever and your inferiority complex requires you to feel the need to grab something powerful doesn't mean you get to do that at the expense of all innocent bystanders, i don't need your bullets blasting through my walls and killing kids, I don't need your ass plowing down the road at 150 mph, or all the other dangerous shit people like to pull so they can get thier kicks. if you need to vent why don't you do soemthing constructive, you'd be amazed how "powerful" helping someone is instead of just contributing to the industry that makes death tools.

[devil13]

I wish I could still buy an MG 42...I've wanted one since I was a kid and would kill baby jesus to get my hands on one.

Ill hold him down for ya

the thing is that stupid ass people go and do something stupid and everyone gets all up in arms over it then politicians use it to thier advantage to get votes and they make a law about it which screws us out of it.

[Tequila Zaire]

didn't ted nugent like fuck a 13 year old?

It was the 70's...you could get away with that then. Jack Nicholson and Roman Polanski did it...and to be honest it still happens.

anyway,the NRA is inflammatory and reactionary.

If you want media attention these days you gotta be.

If they simply believed in upholding thier right to own a weapon, then they'd do just that and keep them in thier homes for protection instead of forming a big organisation,

Well given that the other side of the coin has formed big organizations to go after these people...it's only natural. Plus it's a pretty old organization...so it's focus rises and falls as a result. It's as much a political organization as it is a gun owners one. It happens with anything...like the boy scouts and their secret militant shock troops.

advocating extremism and militiatias and vigitliantism

How do you advocate extremeism? You can be extreme about an issue but given their focus it's gonna be passionate by default...the right keep a gun has never been a dull topic. As far as militia's go...their are many great militas in this country and some use the term but are actually criminal organizations...liker "biker clubs" that run drugs all over the U.S. California has an excellent militia...and it being California actually has a pacifist member. I've kept in contact with a few over the years and they are pretty level headed...they've never advocated "anti-government" sentiments...they simply uphold the ideals of what America was founded upon. They will protect it if called to do it but most of the time they are like an outdoors club...hunting, camping, etc.

As far as vigilanteism...hell Hollywood does that dude. You want an industry that makes money off vengeance...there ya go. The NRA does not advocate breaking the law with guns blazing...go to NRA meetings...if you manage not to be bored to death you'll see it's less frenzied than one thinks it is. Plus most members tend to have a good relationship with The Law...as many members are former or current members of it. That actually causes MORE friction within the organization since anti-gun laws are often drag various law enforcement agencies into the debate. Thier simply is nothing in the organization that promotes the use of vigilante justice...if they did you'd sure as hell hear about incidents revolving it...and vigilante justice is much rarer than many seem to be aware of.

and doing shit like going to colorado and holding a pro gun rally in the same week that the columbine highschool shootings took place, and basically getting in peoples faces and trying to piss them off.

That event was far more complicated than the Mikey Moore film made it out to be. The Governer of that state did nothing to stop the NRA coming to town...no one did...the money they generate at these conventions is needed. Plus it was all organized 3 months before hand...AND it was much more low key than it's been made out to be...even the famous "not from my cold dead hands " happened BEFORE the events and columbine. Plus as time has shown...the NRA was not the problem in that fucked up community. If the NRA pisses them off more than the social and family issues that caused it in the first place then the event obviously had no real effect on the community. From the sound of it these days the changes made have been nothing but cosmetic anyhow.

Face it, they aren't just content with owning guns, they are looking for any excuse to USE those guns.

Well...they are guns...they are meant to be used. Like many...I like being able to shoot it...even at people if need be.

It's like keeping a fast car in the garage and never using it to street race...what fun is that?

[devil13]

hey dude, just because you have a small dick or whatever and your inferiority complex requires you to feel the need to grab something powerful doesn't mean you get to do that at the expense of all innocent bystanders, i don't need your bullets blasting through my walls and killing kids, I don't need your ass plowing down the road at 150 mph, or all the other dangerous shit people like to pull so they can get thier kicks. if you need to vent why don't you do soemthing constructive, you'd be amazed how "powerful" helping someone is instead of just contributing to the industry that makes death tools.

calm down. there is a big diference between legal gun owners and your local gang/ the clan/ David Keresh.....etc.
Im not shooting anyone unless my life is in danger and Im not randomly shooting at houses either. my dick may not be over 8 inches like you like em to be, but that has nothing to do with why I own a gun

[Morning Glory]

well unlike roman polanski, ted advocates shooting child molesters. cosndiering that he's practically one, I find that to be ironic.

also consider that as spokesperson for that organization he advocates executions by private cizitizens instead of a judicial trial, (which is also one of your constitutional rights, way to go NRA, let's just choose some rights to uphold and other's to fight against) I can't say how you can possibly question how that is endorsing vigilatntism and extremism.

oh that's right they want to keep the government from taking away thier guns, cuz ya know the american government didn't have a military where you can join, get a gun, and defend the country before like 1776, so it was really a neccesary thing.

[Tequila Zaire]

hey dude, just because you have a small dick or whatever and your inferiority complex requires you to feel the need to grab something powerful doesn't mean you get to do that at the expense of all innocent bystanders...

Lighten the fuck up... I mean doesn't it get a little boring being such a stick in the mud...it's FUN shooting powerful guns and it's FUN driving fast cars and fucking women you know will kill you as much as kiss you. It has nothing with this "small dick and inferior" shtick..it's just fun. Like getting in a fist fight at a bar with some friends...I shoot barrels of propane, old cars, carboard cutouts, meat, and assorted junk we grab from junkyards...we're not lining up homeless people and going all GTA in the streets.

i don't need your bullets blasting through my walls and killing kids, I don't need your ass plowing down the road at 150 mph, or all the other dangerous shit people like to pull so they can get thier kicks.

Well...given it's gangs, cops, and assorted nutjobs doing the shooting in urban areas not me and my friends...take it up with them. I'm sure the local gangs will take your worries to heart.

I shoot at private ranges, ranches, and the desert...not a kid or civilation around. We even have ATF, FBI, and military guys with us to keep things nice and fun as opposed to careless and dangerous. Their is more of a danger to the shooter with these weapons than much else in these situations...we're not drunken rednecks or careless fools. We know our weapons, we know their limiations, and we know the prime operating conditions. The idea is to have FUN not live out GTA inspired fantasies.

if you need to vent why don't you do soemthing constructive, you'd be amazed how "powerful" helping someone is instead of just contributing to the industry that makes death tools.

I help my fellow man when needed...but I'm not a fucking missionary or hippy. I like having fun with things that can potentiall cause death. It's how I get off...and it's what I like living for and venting with. It's much more pwoerful and fun to blow up propane tanks in the desert than it is to stand in a kitchen feeding homeless on thanksgiving. It just is...so I donate the cash needed to feed the homeless instead these days and spend the little free time I have firing weapons I wish were never used as they were originally intended.

But either way...it's about my entertainment. If my dick gets hard from it...all the better.

[Morning Glory]

allright, allright. you are right, but I don't think the NRA does a very good job at adressing these real problems that are caused by guns, and as someone that is telling people to go out and a get a gun I think that they have some responsibilty in that, whether they themselves engage in such behaviour or not. frankly living in a world where so many innocent people are killed every year by gun violence and gun accidents, it doesn't justify the entertainment value.

[Tequila Zaire]

well unlike roman polanski, ted advocates shooting child molesters. cosndiering that he's practically one, I find that to be ironic.

Tell ya what...we'll line him up too. I'm all for that.

also consider that as spokesperson for that organization he advocates executions by private cizitizens instead of a judicial trial, (which is also one of your constitutional rights, way to go NRA, let's just choose some rights to uphold and other's to fight against) I can't say how you can possibly question how that is endorsing vigilatntism and extremism.

Advocating something and actually doing it...quite diffrent. I advocate my own city on the moon...does not make it realisticly possible though. A spokesperson is never really the "voice" of all anyhow...most of the time they are just like puppets used to cause noise. I do like the private execution idea though...tweaked a bit it could work...cheaper than the current system. Plus...it already happens anyhow so what would make it all that diffrent?

oh that's right they want to keep the government from taking away thier guns, cuz ya know the american government didn't have a military where you can join, get a gun, and defend the country before like 1776, so it was really a neccesary thing.

A disarmed society is not a free society...the government having a military and the private citizenry being armed is very diffrent...the government is not the people...so as a result The People...are the last line of what their country is as stands for if the government gets too out of control. Stalin disarmed his people as a layer to keep power and it's usually the first thing many fucked of governments do...

It's a nice feeling to know their is another layer of armed and ready to fight people in the country the government can't directly control.

[Kidthorazine]

OK i realize its fun to shoot big guns and stuff and so do most liberals thats why the government allows possesion of theese weapons inder strict guidelines and what people dont seem to realize about the underground weapons market is that unlike drugs and things like that guns cant be easily manufactured in someones basement and somewhere along the line they have to come from a legitimate source and thats what a lot of gun control laws are about youd be suprised at the amount of stuff i could dig up from a "legal" gun show that shouldnt be there and thats the kind of thing that needs to be regulated.

[Morning Glory]

ya know I really resent that because of groups like the NRA I feel like I need a gun for my safety because I don't know who's going to have a gun. I'd much rather have gang members be the only one's with guns, because i'm smart enough not to go hang out on gang turf and fuck with people that look like gang members.

so yeah the NRA promotes being an asshole, and saying don't fuck with me cuz i'll shoot you. ya know if you try being nice to people then you probbily won't need a gun because someones is probibly not going to want to shoot you. realistically there's just not that many people going around and shooting people for no reason.

[ForrestBlack]

Personal freedom requires personal power. A free nation must be an equipped nation. We cannot always rely on the favor and good nature of authority to protect our every right at all times. There must be a plan b, a fallback position. Guns are an interesting debate partly because they are the tool that protects our liberties when all others fail.

Someone is welcomed to start their own nation with their own unarmed utopian structure. That can be their great experiment. I'd wish them all the luck in the world in hopes that they would find the perfect balance to allow people to prosper in peace. However, this nation was founded with a different notion. This nation was designed to prevent monarchy, to prevent dictatorship, to prevent tyranny, and so the people were given the right to protect themselves, their loved ones, and their property, as potentially dangerous powerful individuals. That individual power scares some people, it certainly has been abused by some, however, this can not overshadow the abuses of tyranny thrust upon a powerless public throughout history.

[Tequila Zaire]

frankly living in a world where so many innocent people are killed every year by gun violence and gun accidents, it doesn't justify the entertainment value.

Does to me...the gun violence is usually criminal related and statistically the gun violence is actually down. It's been going down since the 90's...reporting on it has shot up 200%...so one guy gets shot and you hear about it at least 50 times in various ways you start to think it's a massacre going on. I do think gun education is half assed too much of the time and would love to see that improved over strict laws and insane regulations only non-criminal guns users follow anyhow. The hell I had to go through for my own weapons really had me tempted to simply use "other channels"...but I kept it legal none the less.

As far as gun accidents go...it's a mix of bad owners not learning how to care for their weapon and bad habits with it...education not laws is the key to curbing that problem...too many think guns are toys.

[Tequila Zaire]

ya know I really resent that because of groups like the NRA I feel like I need a gun for my safety because I don't know who's going to have a gun. I'd much rather have gang members be the only one's with guns, because i'm smart enough not to go hang out on gang turf and fuck with people that look like gang members.

Well great...unforunately some of us can't really avoid them or their variations...plus "gang turf" is public and government owned ground anyhow...so it's really those fucks stealing it and calling it their own...much of it is filled with everyday people who have nothing to do with gangs and are caught in the crossfire. I'm happy to be out of it but I know many simply can't jsut move away let alone avoid gang members...

[Morning Glory]

violence only breeds violence, forrest. how do you think those dictatorships were enforced? by a bunch of people getting together with guns, and more groups getting togther with guns to oppose them isn't going to solve the problem, it's just going to create it over and over again. the fact that each person having the ability to kill each other is considering being safe in this country, sounds like insanity to me.

[Tequila Zaire]

OK i realize its fun to shoot big guns and stuff and so do most liberals thats why the government allows possesion of theese weapons inder strict guidelines and what people dont seem to realize about the underground weapons market is that unlike drugs and things like that guns cant be easily manufactured in someones basement and somewhere along the line they have to come from a legitimate source and thats what a lot of gun control laws are about youd be suprised at the amount of stuff i could dig up from a "legal" gun show that shouldnt be there and thats the kind of thing that needs to be regulated.

And you are half wrong...can you get illegal shit at guns hows? Oh yeah...but you can get illegal stuff at concerts too.

With modern machinery tools you can make guns cheaply and easily...many AK's, 45's, and "legit" looking guns are actually chinese, N.Korean, African, and Mid-East knock offs made in machine shops that churn these out by the dozens to hundreds...that's the problem that never gets brought up...many of these weapons are not being imported let alone regulated legally...they are shipped ilelgally, bought ilelgally, and distributed illegally. You won't hear much of this though since the political climate puts this on the backburner and those who go after legit gun manufacturers don't want to go up agaisnt criminal syndicates like the chinese Triads.

Haven't you ever found it odd that NEW Military grade AK-47's pop up even though Russia has not made the rifle since they migrated over to the AK-74? Surplus is one thing...but given the quality, make, and styles found...it's clear they are knock offs.

[Morning Glory]

and that public tyranny shit is just propaghanda. raising taxes to pay for the war is not 'despotism and dictatorship", our president did it now, why don't you go rebel against him?

you make it sounds like the british were torturing people in the streets and raping babies. that shit just wasn't happening.

[Tequila Zaire]

violence only breeds violence, forrest. how do you think those dictatorships were enforced? by a bunch of people getting together with guns, and more groups getting togther with guns to oppose them isn't going to solve the problem, it's just going to create it over and over again. the fact that each person having the ability to kill each other is considering being safe in this country, sounds like insanity to me.

How where these dicatorships ended? By force. Call it insanity if you will but the rest call it reality.

Force on force is often needed to shape the world...hell it's needed just to shape metals to make cars. You can't talk metal into bending how you want it just like you can't talk dicators out of power...even when it manages to happen...it does not end the violence. Is it sad? Yeah...but it's the way of the world. We all chase our ambitions in the best way we can...some want world power and some want a really good milkshake.

I like a healthy middle of that...well armed but no overthrows or mass executions.

[Kidthorazine]

And you are half wrong...can you get illegal shit at guns hows? Oh yeah...but you can get illegal stuff at concerts too.

With modern machinery tools you can make guns cheaply and easily...many AK's, 45's, and "legit" looking guns are actually chinese, N.Korean, African, and Mid-East knock offs made in machine shops that churn these out by the dozens to hundreds...that's the problem that never gets brought up...many of these weapons are not being imported let alone regulated legally...they are shipped ilelgally, bought ilelgally, and distributed illegally. You won't hear much of this though since the political climate puts this on the backburner and those who go after legit gun manufacturers don't want to go up agaisnt criminal syndicates like the chinese Triads.

Haven't you ever found it odd that NEW Military grade AK-47's pop up even though Russia has not made the rifle since they migrated over to the AK-74? Surplus is one thing...but given the quality, make, and styles found...it's clear they are knock offs.

Yes in kentucky you can buy plenty of illegal shit (not just guns mind you im talking claymores, millitary grade body armor, hand grenades, and in one case that was artfully covered up by the media and the government, mortar shells) you can buy some of theese things such as "de-milled" grenades at gun shows and the other stuff later from the dealers you meet at gun shows.
As for the imported knockoffs this is true to some extent and ive actually shot some of theese knock offs and they ae horribly inaccurate and extreemely low quality which makes them very impractical. Ive seen a lot more of the real thing than knockoffs and many of them are sold by "legitimate" and very easy to trace gun dealers.

[Tequila Zaire]

and that public tyranny shit is just propaghanda. raising taxes to pay for the war is not 'despotism and dictatorship", our president did it now, why don't you go rebel against him?

Hell I voted for him. Your raising taxes line is simply laughable...have you ever been or talked to people in places with real despots and dictators or countries where that is trulythe way much gets done? I've been lucky to gorw up and talk to those who did and visit the aftermath of those regimes...if you think Bush is on the same level with a tax hike then you really have no real world concept of what your trying to get across.

Real dictatorships function much more cruedly...and brutalize their people openly and without mercy.

Can you choose not to pay taxes? Of course not. Does that make it "essentially the same as it being taken"...nope...the process of a federal budget is a much bigger beast...so what is asked is not always given. Given the cost of modern war though...and the fact we're commited to one already...it's not exactly a shock more money is needed. Fine by me as long as the job gets done and the troops head back home as soon as can be.

In a dictatorship what is needed is simply taken ...be it resources, land, people, and money...though if you can bypass the need to pay for anything...why bother with it?

[Morning Glory]

allright, well we all pretty much know which side everyone is on from all the other gun debates we've had on here... so I think i'm going to bow out to this one, you guy's have fun talking about all the shit that you can buy at gun shows. pick me up an RPG if you see one.