Questions About Current Cultural Behaviours Pro & Con

[One Eyed Cat]

so what, in addition to paying however much arena rock tickets cost for a big band like that, what 40 dollars? YOU can bring your own food to donate to homeless people, and out of the kindness of thier hearts Greenday will drive it over to the homeless shelter, only it's not even going to be Green Day themselves that drive it over there. Yeah, what a bunch of humanitarians.

Is this a negativity toward the "scene"? you're goddamn right it's a negativity toward people that are just out to make a buck and then have the audacity to pretend like they are so morally righteous. THAT'S the negativity.

They've probably given more to such causes and the Bay Area scene than the rest of the people combined. I've never known them to act "morally righteous" in any sense. I agree with Amelia as to where the negativity is. A bunch of kids sparechanging for beer just doesn't move me. I don't even bother with that or any scene. It's bullshit.

OEC

[Amelia G]

so what, in addition to paying however much arena rock tickets cost for a big band like that, what 40 dollars? YOU can bring your own food to donate to homeless people, and out of the kindness of thier hearts Greenday will drive it over to the homeless shelter, only it's not even going to be Green Day themselves that drive it over there. Yeah, what a bunch of humanitarians.

Is this a negativity toward the "scene"? you're goddamn right it's a negativity toward people that are just out to make a buck and then have the audacity to pretend like they are so morally righteous. THAT'S the negativity.

So would you like Green Day more if they were (a) failures or (b) did not give back to the community creatively or (c) did not encourage and facilitate charity?

[Morning Glory]

you're trying to throw around buzz words like "anti-success" and it's just bullshit. I'm not trying to say that musicians shouldn't be able to afford to live ( which most of them don't anyway) but there's a pretty big fucking line between minimum wage and millionaire. just because your not top 40 pop music doesn't mean that you can't be succesfful... but if you whore yourself out to corporate agendas then it DOES mean that you are a sellout.

[TheDeathKnight]

But here's the thing...

Some people go all-out for revoloution, environmental activism, etc, etc...

And they tend to expect everyone else to be just as hardcore about it.

Well, I am pretty sure that Green Day likes to make music, they like to tour, they like to make money. No big surprise. They want to make a living, playing music. They have no big intentions of saving the world, or helping all the homeless people.

BUT...

They might, just MIGHT, think to themselves that it might be a good idea to collect food for the homeless, or maybe they think it might be a good idea to make their fans aware that there are problems out there. I can put myself exactly in their shoes. If I was very successful at something, I would be enjoying it. But I still see some value in educating people, and doing something to help out. But I'm not going to throw away a successful career, to go feed homeless people all day, just to make my fans realize there is more to life. But I would do what I could to make them aware of the problems in the world. Through my music, etc...

And I think that is all that is going on here.
They *could* do a show where there is no canned food drive at all.
Just a show, and sell T-shirts. No charity, just all capitalist profit for them.
But instead, they try to do *something*. I know they are not going to hand
it out themselves. But neither would I. If I had buttloads of cash, I would
not spend my life helping the poor, etc. But I would give some of it to
charities and things I think are worthwhile. Those of you who want to
save the world, that's great. Go for it. But don't constantly slam anyone
and everyone who is not as optomistic and enthusiastic about it as you are...

[Morning Glory]

well that's the difference between people that believe they should use thier positions of influence to make the world a better place, and people that just want to make lots of money and do what's best for themselves and be "successfull".

[Amelia G]

But here's the thing...

Some people go all-out for revoloution, environmental activism, etc, etc...

And they tend to expect everyone else to be just as hardcore about it.

Well, I am pretty sure that Green Day likes to make music, they like to tour, they like to make money. No big surprise. They want to make a living, playing music. They have no big intentions of saving the world, or helping all the homeless people.

BUT...

They might, just MIGHT, think to themselves that it might be a good idea to collect food for the homeless, or maybe they think it might be a good idea to make their fans aware that there are problems out there. I can put myself exactly in their shoes. If I was very successful at something, I would be enjoying it. But I still see some value in educating people, and doing something to help out. But I'm not going to throw away a successful career, to go feed homeless people all day, just to make my fans realize there is more to life. But I would do what I could to make them aware of the problems in the world. Through my music, etc...

And I think that is all that is going on here.
They *could* do a show where there is no canned food drive at all.
Just a show, and sell T-shirts. No charity, just all capitalist profit for them.
But instead, they try to do *something*. I know they are not going to hand
it out themselves. But neither would I. If I had buttloads of cash, I would
not spend my life helping the poor, etc. But I would give some of it to
charities and things I think are worthwhile. Those of you who want to
save the world, that's great. Go for it. But don't constantly slam anyone
and everyone who is not as optomistic and enthusiastic about it as you are...

Amen to that!

And successful people tend to have bigger, louder voices which can be heard by more people. If Green Day rejected their opportunities and spent more time stoned and less time working, then they might be treated with less negativity. But they would also be less able to help people.

Mainstream people do not get reviled for success the way those who march to the beat of a different drummer do. I do not believe that having unusual hair means one is obligated to be either a failure or the object of scorn. I hold the people in my community and scene in higher esteem than that.

In my experience, unsuccessful punk bands do not generally volunteer at homeless shelters or give to charity. In my experience, when I have tried to do entirely noncommercial art projects, unsuccessful punk bands are just as quick to try to make a buck off my work as big corporations. The big corporations are just better at it. Which puts creative cool people between something of a rock and a hard place when they really put heart into what they do.

[TheDeathKnight]

I just think there are grey areas.

Where people are attempting to do the best for themselves,
but at the same time, feel like they can do some things to
help the world as well...

And a canned food drive at a concert is a perfect example.

Yes, they are selling tickets, and t-shirts, etc, which makes money
for them, and for the record companies, and is furthering a capitalist
and personal wealth agenda. Sellout, yes. Doing it all for the money...

BUT...

In addition to that, they are also trying to do something good.

I'm not saying it's gonna save the world.
But it's better than not doing anything.
They could just as easily claim to be hedonists, nihilists, anarchists,
and just do it all for their own enjoyment. But they actually made
the decision to try to do stuff for other people. It may be a token
effort, but it's better than nothing.

[Morning Glory]

that's because you can't look past "success" as defined by anything else besides possesions. If that wasn't everyone's primary motivation then it would be much easier not to have to choose between the two alternatives that I posed.

[Amelia G]

that's because you can't look past "success" as defined by anything else besides possesions. If that wasn't everyone's primary motivation then it would be much easier not to have to choose between the two alternatives that I posed.

The topic of this thread was why is there so much negativity in the scene? If a band like Green Day gets material success, we should be happy that a bunch of funny-hair-having, eyeliner-wearing freaks achieved the benefits of the larger society and are in a position to do good. It means more possibilities for all of us.

Material success is NOT everyone's primary motivation. I personally have spent most of my adult life doing things where material success was somewhere around twentieth on my list of goals. I never rejected it, but it was never a priority. However, I learned the hard way that a lot of the people who are very anti-success are the first people to try to make a buck off of someone else's labor, even if that labor was noncommercial.

I am defining anti-success attitude as the sort of negativity where people begrudge others everything good they could receive from material goods to the respect of their peers to the appreciation of the people enjoying their work to the cultural impact they may have to a simple thank you for doing something decent for someone else.

[Morning Glory]

I disagree. it's easy to say that, but tell me one poor person that you consider to be a sucess in the last fifty years?

[Amelia G]

I disagree. it's easy to say that, but tell me one poor person that you consider to be a sucess in the last fifty years?

Circa 1996 I was pretty much destitute, but I really felt I was making a difference and I did feel successful. Yes, I was hungry and lacking in medical care or a lease, but I felt good about many of my creative and cultural endeavors. I considered myself successful and I was really really fucking poor.

[Morning Glory]

there you go, that only proves all the more then how Green day are sellouts.

[ForrestBlack]

there you go, that only proves all the more then how Green day are sellouts.

Not at all. They did not change their morality, they just created art that appealed to a big enough audience that they can now play larger shows and reach more people.

So again, are you saying they would not be sellouts and thus deserve more respect if they simply failed? I think that is exactly the point. Some people only claim to respect failure and I think that's insane.

[Morning Glory]

then yes I do, because my defintition of success is not the same as other peoples.

but is that the issue here? it's not between failure and success, it's between postive and negative. and I feel that with some acts people may see sucess as postive towards them, but it may be negative towards others, and other's will be so inclined to express thier negativity back at them. I try to be postive, but I am not going to let people's negativity take away from what I have worked toward, call it success or failure, and I will respond accordingly. I don't think letting negativty walk all over you and taking offense to that very thing is a sign of negativity on your part. like I said I will try to show as much positivity as I can, and encourage it among others that demonstrate postive qualities and actions, but in the face of hostilities, I won't allow myself to be abused and stand for it.

[Morning Glory]

the above post is not about Greenday. the posts I made specifically about them weren't meant to single them out as the only group that what I said applies to, it's just an example of the phenomenon I have witnessed, and the one that is bieng used to demonstrate it, in this case. When a group becomes sucessfull it may be postive to them, but as you can see it has alienated and caused various feelings of negativty amonst many other people. I think that is something that has to be taken into account, whethere it's "right' or "fair" depending on you're view, it is a fact and so I think it's impact should be considered in the overall positivity or negatitivty of the actions of a sub-culture especially, and the mainstream in regaurds to them.

[ForrestBlack]

I think calling anyone that has managed any measureable success in a financial and/or notoriety sense a 'sellout' could strike some people as kinda negative.

The original question was: Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity? I sometimes get the impression that by your definition, nobody could ever do enough, they could never give enough. If they gained anything from their hard work that they did not hand over to the 'less fortunate' that they are some sort of corrupt sellout. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I'm understanding where exactly. I suppose it sounds like you might be saying that you define success differently, so your imposed negativity towards others is justified. Would that be an accurate interpretation?

[Morning Glory]

no, it seems to me that positive and negative are maybe subjective to you.

[Titus]

What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

Hhhhhhmm...Some of my idols actually killed themselves, and I believe that only few people in this 'scene/sub/counterculture' ever managed it to find a balance between whatever Eros & Thanatos..
It's an old tradition among the decadents/aestheticists to be in a way consumptive, neurasthenic or self-destructive. And in an, er.. ecclecticist? way I see the whole punk/goth/new wave movement as a prolonguement of the decadents and what was later on called avantgarde.. So I don't think that 'being positive' or 'creative & have fun' should become a dictum here. It's not the Love Parade, after all. I'm glad to see Marilyn Manson or Björk give it a new drive.
As long as popularity doesn't turn the original wine into water, I don't mind commercial success.

[inox]

I think there's been a trend toward emphasizing fashion over ideas. Biafra noticed it back in the day in "Chickenshit Conformist", and I think it's a pretty valid observation.

As a friend of mine said, "The only thing worse than getting old and bitter is not realizing it." While that's certainly true, going too far the other way and seeing every new trend or focus as today's version of what we knew is similarly misleading.

With popularity comes a horde of people who are interested in a thing for that reason alone. Since the aesthetic doesn't really resonate with them, and the ideals aren't necessarily theirs, the identification and adherence are superficial; done for the sake of scene credentials.

Personally, I become wary of anyone who invents or pays heed to all the various sub-genres.

[Amelia G]

I think there's been a trend toward emphasizing fashion over ideas. Biafra noticed it back in the day in "Chickenshit Conformist", and I think it's a pretty valid observation.

As a friend of mine said, "The only thing worse than getting old and bitter is not realizing it." While that's certainly true, going too far the other way and seeing every new trend or focus as today's version of what we knew is similarly misleading.

With popularity comes a horde of people who are interested in a thing for that reason alone. Since the aesthetic doesn't really resonate with them, and the ideals aren't necessarily theirs, the identification and adherence are superficial; done for the sake of scene credentials.

Personally, I become wary of anyone who invents or pays heed to all the various sub-genres.

A funny thing I recently realized is that obviously this refusal to accept the limits of sub-genres was one of the most important values promoted in Blue Blood in print. Only it is actually a lot more of a DC/Baltimore local view than I had ever dreamed.

I remember you and me having a conversation about this topic re: Guns n' Roses about a million years ago.

[One Eyed Cat]

So Billie Joe breaks into a song from Kerplunk and noone knew it. He walked off the stage. I seriously wonder if they like this shit. You play to a bunch of kids who know lyrics from your last album and none of what it meant or where you came from. I still don't think it was selling out, but that one riff is really gonna stick with me. I'm glad I'm going to law school.

This may be more along the lines of what Amelia said about seeing bands much later, but these were my contemporaries: kids I drank beer with. At what point does success make us parodies of ourselves and can you truly avoid it? I'm gonna get them to do an old style show one of these days, but what I saw last night had a twinge of sadness to it. (although it was a great show)

OEC

[killerkat]

So Billie Joe breaks into a song from Kerplunk and noone knew it. He walked off the stage. I seriously wonder if they like this shit. You play to a bunch of kids who know lyrics from your last album and none of what it meant or where you came from. I still don't think it was selling out, but that one riff is really gonna stick with me. I'm glad I'm going to law school.

This may be more along the lines of what Amelia said about seeing bands much later, but these were my contemporaries: kids I drank beer with. At what point does success make us parodies of ourselves and can you truly avoid it? I'm gonna get them to do an old style show one of these days, but what I saw last night had a twinge of sadness to it. (although it was a great show)

OEC

he actually walked off stage....wow....seems like they do stuff like that often now adays ,maybe there not happy with their new,shit,fanbase?............


did your screaming old stuff get you back stage?......

[One Eyed Cat]

he actually walked off stage....wow....seems like they do stuff like that often now adays ,maybe there not happy with their new,shit,fanbase?............


did your screaming old stuff get you back stage?......

Nah. it was too big of a crowd. (40000+) I'm getting a pass for the SF show tho. It was just sad to see that.

OEC

[Wickedanima]

I don't think the problem is pressure or negativity from the outside anymore though. I think it's more internal than that. A cool venture gets a lot more static from supposedly cool identified people than it ever gets from the mainstream world now. I think the problem is that the mainstream world co-opts cool things too efficiently. It's like a kid that got an earing used to get in trouble, so he was being a rebel for getting it anyway, but now his dad would just get one too and then his dad would hit on his girlfriend and tell her what a hip dad he was. At this point, the kid would decide that the earing was a dumb idea and would simply start to reject anything that could be taken, anything that could be co-opted and made stupid.

I have to agree with Forest on this one. Outside pressure only tends to strengthen groups of people, in paticular if it involves mainstream hatred of the certain group.

Furthermore, I totally agree with 'the mainstream' adopting things too efficiently. HOWEVER I also think that there is this whole confusion about just how to 'be' anti-establishment in this day and age. If being goth was anti-establishment, and a corporation finds out that goth sells to teenagers, sets up a shop for rebellious teenagers that experiences huge mainstream success, and then goth is a part of the mainstream, is it anti-establishment any more?

I also think that some of the main problems culturally now is the loss of support. When I was different from the other kids, much older goth kids took me in, gave me a place outside of the other kids. They were nothing but kind and generous to we young outcasts. While there are some that still practice that, our sence of community seems to have degraded, to the point where, in my town, people will tear out your throat if your a fan of a different kind of music, ADMIT that you shop at hot topic, or anything that they don't think is the Gospel of Goth.

Yes, making fun of eachother is a part of the culture, yes there is an obession with labling. But why isolate people of alternate culture from one another? Why do I seem to be one of the few Goths I know that can still be friends with Ravers, Punks, and baby Goths? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "all just get along", But I don't think that a little cultural curtisey would be totally out of the question.

Ranting can be fun!

[One Eyed Cat]

Whatever can be coopted are ultimately external trappings. It is a bit cliche, but I honestly believe if you stay true to your own ideals and support your friends the chatter itself becomes a parody.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

he actually walked off stage....wow....seems like they do stuff like that often now adays ,maybe there not happy with their new,shit,fanbase?............


did your screaming old stuff get you back stage?......

I pulled some strings. Gonna get back next week in Cleveland It's funny as they were never one of my favorites in the Bay Area, but they've lasted. Should be cool. Will get something out of the pre-party.

OEC

[inox]

AmeliaG wrote:

A funny thing I recently realized is that obviously this refusal to accept the limits of sub-genres was one of the most important values promoted in Blue Blood in print. Only it is actually a lot more of a DC/Baltimore local view than I had ever dreamed.

It seems that some people are only able to affiliate themselves with something if they narrow it down to a sub-trend, and then proclaim themselves the experts on it.

I'm sad to hear that the inclusiveness we remember from the Balt/DC metro area isn't more widespread.

I remember you and me having a conversation about this topic re: Guns n' Roses about a million years ago.

Hah! Yes, I seem to recall that as well.

Remember the joke Steve used to tell?

Q: "How's the Baltimore scene?"
A: "Oh, he's okay."

Heheh.

[TheDeathKnight]

Let's take the "Hot Topic" thing, and take the worse case scenario, and see how it plays out...
Let's say all the teenagers get really into Goth/Punk, and it becomes TOTALLY mainstream.
All the cool kids, and jocks, and everyone is wearing those clothes, and having colored hair,
and listening to that kind of music.
Is that really the end of the world? Is that really a bad thing?
All the parents would get used to it. Society would get used to it...
And I think that the benefit, is that people would be able to be more creative with the
way they look. People hate to look exactly like everyone else.
So people would still try to look unique, and different.
Maybe looking preppie would be the new "strange look".
But I would be very happy to see our society become less uptight about that kind of stuff.
I don't want a world of business suits, and preppie clothes, jeans, dockers, etc...
I'm sick of the same old crap.
I want to see society change.
And if Hot Topic can help people accept new things, then good for them.

And the same thing goes for music.
If underground music can become "popular", and people all get into it,
it will allow more artists to get their stuff out there, and allow more
artists to make a living. Do you want to relegate all "alternative" musicians
to poverty and obscurity? Why? Why not get their music out in the mainstream?

I really think that people who are bitter about it, want to be rebels,
and feel like they want to be unique, and not part of the mainstream.
And they are so against the mainstream, they hate it when people play
into it. But I think that anything that opens mainstream society's eyes,
is a move in the right direction. A mom or dad who listens to Pop-Punk
on the radio, and like some of it, is going to be a lot more accepting of
letting their kid listen to more hardcore stuff, without freaking out
about it. And that's a good thing...

[Morning Glory]

the problem is that they take the front of preogress like having funky hair, but they they do it purely to be anti-establihsment, without taking the time to consdier what it is about the establishment that they don't want. If george Bush had a mohawk, but everything else about him was the same, then it wouldnn't help at all. that's the problem with mainstream versus underground, because once it becomes mainstream then it loses any real impact it had for change, because the mainstream is and always will be about business as usual and playing the same old game, that's why it's the mainstream.

[TheDeathKnight]

I agree, but I still would prefer it if our congress and president did have mohawks, etc... Not because they would be any different with their policies, but they would accept the idea that modifying yourself to look interesting is OK, not horrible and wrong and freakish. I don't want a society where *everyone* has mohawks. I want a society where it's ok to be different. In fact, encouraged... I'd like to see kids compete to see who can be more interesting, more creative, and more diverse. It's sort of happening now, with the whole body mod trends, etc... It's no longer cool enough to just have a tattoo, you have to have extreme facial tattoos, or a million piercings, to be considered "extreme". And yes, it seems stupid, but I actually think that kind of competition to be weird and strange, is a good thing. It's stupid to be competitive about it, but the more interesting people there are in the world, the better...

[Morning Glory]

I agree. every should do what they want to make them happy, not to try and fit into anyone elses standards or categorising.

[One Eyed Cat]

the problem is that they take the front of preogress like having funky hair, but they they do it purely to be anti-establihsment, without taking the time to consdier what it is about the establishment that they don't want. If george Bush had a mohawk, but everything else about him was the same, then it wouldnn't help at all. that's the problem with mainstream versus underground, because once it becomes mainstream then it loses any real impact it had for change, because the mainstream is and always will be about business as usual and playing the same old game, that's why it's the mainstream.

You just have to give up on any of the external trappings (hair, dress etc) meaning anything. Do what you want. You'll end up seeing some of it coopted then rejected by the mainstream. You just have to laugh at it.

OEC

[Mekahoel The Pandafist]

This is a little off topic, but...

I have never understood the whole "peircings are extreme" thing. Then again, I am not of Anglo-Saxon heritage. I mean, my grandma had a septum peircing when she was a woman (back in the day, when they were made from bone, and you ate the animal it came from).

I live in Farthehellaway, Alaska. The first white dudes came around my village in, like, 1885. The first phone was installed around the 70's and the first TV came in around the latter part of the same decade. I was born in 1985, and, seeing as my father isn't white and I was born with copper penny red hair, our family wasn't liked too much for a while.

I have the tremendously great honor of wearing the title of "First kid who wore black plastic pants to school ever here". Gained in 9th grade. Or 10th. It's hard to remember, I was choke-holded a lot during those years. And, after a while, plastic pants wasn't such a big deal after a while, and life went on its merry way.

As for the whole "sell out" thing, I think it is another form of envy. Let me explain:

Anyway, some people who might have joined some "scene" a couple years before Blink 182 came out might feel a little irked when a Hot Topic comes out, because what was "theirs" is now open for everyone. And, because everyone can go and get a pair of black pants with the bells and whistles and elaphantine pockets for a handfull of cash, it might become a little popular to adopt the "Look ma, I'm a punk!" style of fashion. The point is, everyone can look and act like the one dude (let's call him Vladmir) and not go through the "Gauntlet of Fire" that he had to pass when he wanted to look like that. (I swear that this didn't happen to me. No, really. Stop laughing, it hurts.)

So, Vladdie gets mad, and runns around shooting off on how X band sucks now cause Hot Topic sells their CD and they now only do shit for money and Y band are sellouts and only band Z are true, hardcore, REAL examples of this scene. Then, after band X is no longer in the pop limelight, everyone else quotes our dear old friend Rasputin (or whatever the hell I named him, I don't remember at this point) and band X gets the boot and everyone moves to band Z. Vladmir then gets mad and rips any new guy with a genuine interest in the scene a new piehole.

Now, imagine this on a grand scale of, say, 100,000 Vladmirs. That's what I belive, anyways.

[One Eyed Cat]

Most bands I've known that have "made it" have a 2-10 year run (I am certain I saw the end of one last week) After being "stars", they simply continue to make music. I don't think commercial success is the pinnacle of music. It isn't selling out per se, more just a ride you take for as long as its last. Hopefully, you get out at the top of your game and follow your bliss.

OEC

[Nudemuse]

What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

I was just talking to someone about this not too long ago. Just so no panties get bunched I am speaking from my own experience here.

I think a big part of why people who are supposedly cool are so negative is that they aren't all that cool anymore. 'Cool' is no longer relegated to those who dare to have funny colored hair, or wear extravagent clothing, or listen to strange music. I think a lot of 'cool' people are realizing that they are in fact just like everyone else in that they can't just put on some spikes and eyeliner and have that instant cool factor.

What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

Declining sense of community is something that makes me terribly sad. I think the problem is that so many people are so frustrated with (insert issue, problems life what have you here) that they don't make time to really get into their community other than to wear something fabulous to a fashion show or go to the club to scoff at the 'uncool' people there.

It's pretty unfortunate.

In my younger years I was very community active. Lots of going to coffee and wanting to meet new people, help put together events and parties. I think at some point I myself got disillusioned when I discovered that a good many of the people I was trying to deal with were just assholes.

Assholism is I believe the leading cause of the disintegration of a feeling of community amongst people.

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

There is no real who for me per se. It's more what. The what being mundane things like working too many hours, being broke, cranky depressed etc. And less mundane things like after a few years of being (or at least trying to be) a part of the scenes I used to enjoy I realized that most of the people I was associating with didn't have what struck me as real friendships.

There wasn't a lot of true caring or attempts to bring people into the fold so to speak. I saw a lot of posturing, a lot more ass kissing, heard a lot of bragging and whatnot but not the stuff that really makes for lasting connections in my mind.

[One Eyed Cat]

I was just checking a link for an indy record label. At the bottom of the page was a call for volunteers.
Basically, you are sent promotional material to give to music stores .... book bands at local venues ... check if anything is in stock .... put up bands and give them an idea of what's in your area. I have not been involved in such endeavors in years. This time, I just said fuck it ... why not? I think that going outside your level of comfort can make you more positive about what is going on. Who knows what will come of it? My point being you should just get out there and mingle. How can you complain if you aren't even trying?

OEC

[tinstar]

they don't make time to really get into their community other than to wear something fabulous to a fashion show or go to the club to scoff at the 'uncool' people there.

It's pretty unfortunate.

In my younger years I was very community active. Lots of going to coffee and wanting to meet new people, help put together events and parties. I think at some point I myself got disillusioned when I discovered that a good many of the people I was trying to deal with were just assholes.

Assholism is I believe the leading cause of the disintegration of a feeling of community amongst people.

The guy that introduced my g/f and me is just like that. He is a mutual friend, but he is so dicky, it is unreal. Anytime we go out, all he does is say negative shit about people and talk about how he is going to have his record-release party at such-and-such club (even though it's sooo never going to happen and everyone knows it).... As a result of that, we promised each other that when we go out to a club or something, we won't point out bad stuff/people, but try to zone in on stuff/people we like or find really interesting/attractive... It has made going out sooo much better and gives me a standard for talking to people... If you are soo cooolll that everybody else sucks, then you probably think I suck too, so fuck ya...

[devil13]

As a result of that, we promised each other that when we go out to a club or something, we won't point out bad stuff/people, but try to zone in on stuff/people we like or find really interesting/attractive... It has made going out sooo much better and gives me a standard for talking to people... If you are soo cooolll that everybody else sucks, then you probably think I suck too, so fuck ya...

thats a good way to look at things.
I personally am one of those type of people that really doesnt give a shit about what others think of me anyways. if your not someone that I care about why should I care what they think? I mean in the long run are they going to pay your bills, talk to you when you need someone to listen, etc.. so I say fuck all those scenesters who think they are better than everone else.
If you are someone I care about I will be there for ya in a heart beat. If you are someone I would like to get to know I will talk to ya and if I get attitude than your not someone I want to get to know.

[bre.star]

Q: What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

I think that the people who consider themselves "cool" are so "cool" that they have their head up their asses. I hate San Diego scenes because people who belong to certain scenes think they are too "goth" or too "punk" or too "emo" or too "hardcore" to be anything other than a stupid fucking fashion statement. I've been to goth clubs in San Diego and I walk in the room and everyone is against the wall with sulky faces giving dirty looks because obviously they are too "goth" to smile, while I go to goth clubs in LA and people are dancing like crazy and smiling and talking to eachother and having a good time. I can't stand people who think they are cool! Relax, don't hide who you really are behind that "cool" mask.

Q:What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

People coming into scenes with the "cool" attitude as described above.

Q: Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

Mainstream commercialism. Fuck the creativity, people want money. If Sony is offering an awesome creative band a record contract, a place to say, free music equiptment, free food, and the possibility of success all at the cost of a big time pop artist producer changing their sound, they are going to take the offer!!! The pop crap sells better than the creative art because most of the worlds population are dumbasses who don't appreciate REAL GOOD music.