What are proper roles for women?

[OliX]

I'm getting married, and I like it that way. I think it's a little bit of a trust issue, but this is the type of thing that can only be gained over time. The ceremony helps.

aaah.... I understand you, but I'm not with you on that one... marriage is just ritual created by mankind... and I would never like to own someone or to be owned... if you understand....

trust issue is it needed to marry someone so that you can be trusted? ...or to trust

marriage is some kind of propaganda that's allready so deep in our roots that is almost unpossible to go without...

(my english doesn't alow me to expres my self as I want to, but I hope you get my point of view)

[Mr Karl]

women should at least be smart enough to use whatever they got to get ahead in this world , I guess it all comes down to what people really want

[OliX]

women should at least be smart enough to use whatever they got to get ahead in this world , I guess it all comes down to what people really want

you mean that they are not smart or just that men doesn't have "whatever they got" to get ahead in this world?

[killerkat]

i don't know how relevent this is but i think my xfeincee is goint to do co-vocals with me the next tracks/show ,she might be a permenent addition.....

i don't really see a diference in men/women neither is no better,nor worse

ableit, the female body is a thing of art,other than that there the same.....

[devil13]

this is kinda stupid to compare men and women by their "proper" roles. if you were talking about 50 years ago you would know what your role as a woman or a man was. now things are allot different. there is no such thang as a "proper" role for anyone. look at the most sucsesfull women, do they fit any "proper" role? Oprah is not only a woman but an African American and one of the most sucsesfull and richist women in the world. to ask what role a woman should have in organizations is kinda stupid if you ask me. you can take whatever role they give you or you can not go by that kinda thinking at all and define your own role in an organization. its your choice.

[incog]

There are no wrong answers. Only ones I might tell your future dates about if you don't watch it

Seriously I think women should be accepted doing anything they want to do. I think the people who limit women's roles the most are other women who are afraid they might have to pay their own bills or otherwise take care of themselves. The thinking is that if one woman shows she can do a traditionally male role then all women will be held to a higher standard. I love strong capable women with minds of their own.

[inox]

I don't even think it needs to be considered in terms of roles. I figure, whatever someone wants to achieve should be what they spend their time pursuing. Life has no agenda.

[BrightStar]

Yay! better way to express My opinion on this matter:

Men are people
Women are people
People are people.

Consider both Genders Equal, and then move on to more important issues. A Person's gender shouldn't affect their rights, or freedoms.

**

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Spicey tuna rolls? Maybe the alaskan rolls? Oh.. roles that's a little bit trickier.

I don't think you will get a lot of people on this site who will be willing to define rolls for women, it just doesn't fit the tone of the crowd. In an organization I think most of us here subscribe to the idea that merit should determine your roll over gender. In groups this liberal the only things I have really seen for defining roles for women were people who think women should not be strippers, prostitutes or adult entertainers or various sorts or (although much less these days) housewives. I think this is misguided, but i think it is the most likely thing you will see here fore defining roles.

Personally, I don't want to define roles for women because I don't want people defining roles for men. So what role should they play? whatever role there desires and merits lead them to.

Do I feel this is happening more? Yes but. With every woman who is succesful in her chosen field, she makes it more acceptable for the next one who wants to be in that role. A woman running for senate is still going to have a harder time than a man, but it is more common than it was. However, women still don't play in the NBA not based on merit but based on rules. So things are changing, but they haven't changed yet.

[Wickedanima]

I think the problem with feminism (while it opened up alot of doors) it also took the extreme point of veiw, that a woman would never choose to be a wife, mother, or model if she could be a CEO.

I firmly belive that a woman, man, or transexual should be able to be what it is they want to be (within reason, aka not a serial killer). I belive that we should be and do what our aspirations lead us to, and that no reason of gender or race should stop that. I believe we should all have an equal shot at our dreams. Which is supremely idealistic, I know.

[tinstar]

whatever role there desires and merits lead them to.

There's a good quote to latch onto... hehe.. Women have accomplished many (good and bad) things throughout history. But the facts are the facts - women and men ARE different. In so many ways....

Marie Curie. Lucrezia Borgia. George Sand (Chopin's caretaker and "special friend"). Mary Shelley. Ayn Rand. Mary Magdalene. Amelia G (Interesting to note in hindsight that the women I listed are mostly Enlightenment period and after... Hrm...) All led completely different lives.... They got done what they needed to do. But all were DEFINITELY females.

Couple of other things to respond to... I noticed someone mentioning marriage and sexuality... If there is anything this generation has learned, it is that women clearly like sex (and are allowed to like it, any way they like it). Women can be just as teasing, horny and slutty as men can be horny and piggish - not that this is a bad thing. There is no binary "sex (bad) or celibacy (good)" question anymore - just a question of HOW it is done and what it MEANS about the people who are doing it. This does not make women any less "feminine." They still go about getting it from their female point-of-view.

Also, I agree with whoever said that we need to stop "feminizing" men or asking men to behave more like women. We are all still physiologically and chemically different from women - it is from those differences that the differences in our behavior essentially begin. Interesting to note that to feminize a man generally implies turning him submissive... This shows little understanding of the true dynamics of male/female relations, as well as little understanding of the nature of dominance and submission in sexual relationships...

All that talk show riff-raff about "men suck"....? Pure network TV silliness. Dumb people doing dumb things, regardless of gender.

And "the Church".....? Why does anyone give a crap what the church does or says anymore anyway?

(Goddang, that was waay longer than I intended... Such a good topic for this site though....)

[a_small_death]

I love the Idea of equality between the sexes. Only thing we are not as a society ready for a women to be in a large posision of power. That would just unerver the whole fabric of the male dominant machine. Just look at the weapon we have has a nation, The missles I really don't think i need to get into.

[killerkat]

I love the Idea of equality between the sexes. Only thing we are not as a society ready for a women to be in a large posision of power. That would just unerver the whole fabric of the male dominant machine. Just look at the weapon we have has a nation, The missles I really don't think i need to get into.

i think i'd be great to have a woman as a pres.or similar,than maybe we wouldn't have some ass-texan making up for is small appendage.......wink.........

[devil13]

Only thing we are not as a society ready for a women to be in a large posision of power.

I am

[skully]

my only complaint is in things like forced equality(ie afirmative action)
especially in jobs where tests are required for promotions.
my uncle is a police officer and in order to meet gender and minority quotas they shuffle the test results as so:
test scores:
1st place
2nd place
3rd place
4th place
5th place
(lets assume that by chance these top five test takers applying for a promotion are all white men)

they will promote like this:
1st place
2nd place
minority*
3rd place
gender*
4th place
minority
5th place

*highest test score in that gender or minority

so now this actually happened... and although i understand and want equality and diversity this to me is bull shit... if you are promoting due to test scores then gender or minority should not be an issue but due to afirmative action it is.

talent personality proffessionalism and skills are the important not race or gender or whatever.

[devil13]

my only complaint is in things like forced equality(ie afirmative action)
especially in jobs where tests are required for promotions.
my uncle is a police officer and in order to meet gender and minority quotas they shuffle the test results as so:
test scores:
1st place
2nd place
3rd place
4th place
5th place
(lets assume that by chance these top five test takers applying for a promotion are all white men)

they will promote like this:
1st place
2nd place
minority*
3rd place
gender*
4th place
minority
5th place

*highest test score in that gender or minority

so now this actually happened... and although i understand and want equality and diversity this to me is bull shit... if you are promoting due to test scores then gender or minority should not be an issue but due to afirmative action it is.

talent personality proffessionalism and skills are the important not race or gender or whatever.

yes but in a situation like that, its really=
white minority gender
1st place 1st place 1st place
2nd place 2nd place 2nd place
whats wrong with that? if you score 1st in your group then it shouldnt be a problem, right? where there is a problem is when they can only choose one and they go by gender or race instead of by score (which is also a form of discimination).

[inox]

The problem is that race and gender should be transparent. So, it seems to me that we should be especially harsh when those forms of discrimination actually occur, and act to quash them, rather than practice yet another form of racial/gender discrimination.

[Amelia G]

my only complaint is in things like forced equality(ie afirmative action)
especially in jobs where tests are required for promotions.
my uncle is a police officer and in order to meet gender and minority quotas they shuffle the test results as so:
test scores:
1st place
2nd place
3rd place
4th place
5th place
(lets assume that by chance these top five test takers applying for a promotion are all white men)

they will promote like this:
1st place
2nd place
minority*
3rd place
gender*
4th place
minority
5th place

*highest test score in that gender or minority

so now this actually happened... and although i understand and want equality and diversity this to me is bull shit... if you are promoting due to test scores then gender or minority should not be an issue but due to afirmative action it is.

talent personality proffessionalism and skills are the important not race or gender or whatever.

That is just wrong. It should be based on merit.

I was raised to be color blind and gender blind, so a lot of the world's weird prejudices seem to me like something read in a Tolkien novel.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Also, I agree with whoever said that we need to stop "feminizing" men or asking men to behave more like women.

While I agree that forcefully feminizing men is bad, I do not believe the pressure for men to act more feminine is as strong as the pressure for men to act more like a guy. Don't believe me? Take a dance class. Buy a hybrid car. Cry at a movie.

If I believe women should have the choice of what roles they want in society, and how they should behave it also seems sensible to me that men should be allowed to as well.

[devil13]

While I agree that forcefully feminizing men is bad, I do not believe the pressure for men to act more feminine is as strong as the pressure for men to act more like a guy. Don't believe me? Take a dance class. Buy a hybrid car. Cry at a movie.

If I believe women should have the choice of what roles they want in society, and how they should behave it also seems sensible to me that men should be allowed to as well.

forcefully feminizing is ok in S&M but other than that its not. men need to take their balls out of thier girlfriends/wives purses and put a stop to that shit. next time you watch TV see how many shows are on that have a guy who is a big puss. and one more thing, I dont think that there is a "real man" out there that would complain about seeing Janets tit for a split second during a football game. hell I recorded it and watched a few times (wished I could have seen both of them). think about it whats more manly than the super bowl? and the TWINS all I know is I didnt complain and nobody that I know did either. the only guy that would compain lost his balls a long time ago.
I dont think that its women trying to feminize men. I think men are just pussies sometimes. dont get me wrong Im not all for women to be "put in their place" or anything either. me personally, I wont let anyone treat me like I was a bitch, man or woman.(unless I want to be) I feel its the same for women too. like I said earlier you can take what they give you or you can define your own role. I prefer the latter.

sorry, if its a lil ranty. Im a bit tired

[tinstar]

sorry, if its a lil ranty. Im a bit tired

hehe, I actually like both of your responses... To Cafe_Post_Mortem, there is nothing feminine about taking a dance class, buying a hybrid, or crying at a movie - personally, I don't cry, but my g/f made fun of me for "puddling" (you know, right at the big "emo" part of the movie, you get "something" in your eye.... ) I am man enough to admit that one hehe....

If you guys have never seen "King of Queens," there is a perfect example of a guy who has been feminized... He is soooo whiny and bitchy and needy, it is unbelievable and he can't move without his wife wiping his nose. Hrm... The irony of the show's title King of Queens just hit me....

[memorydream]

I don't know about proper roles, but I do know proper rolls!

You know like dinner rolls, roll calls, rolling in dough, etc.

[devil13]

If you guys have never seen "King of Queens," there is a perfect example of a guy who has been feminized... He is soooo whiny and bitchy and needy, it is unbelievable and he can't move without his wife wiping his nose. Hrm... The irony of the show's title King of Queens just hit me....

that one and everybody loves Raymond. I would prefer to watch Queer eye for the strait guy than a whiny lil bitch.
what woman would find that attractive? I mean yea she could controll a man like that but when it comes down to it is that what she really wants in a man? all the woman I have ever been with have said they want a man to be a man. one that will make them feel safe and make tham feel like a woman. they dont want to feel like my mother and have to wipe my nose for me. they like a man to be loving and caring but still be a man. thats what I try to be.
there is one show that I have seen where it shows both men and women in more of a reallistic light. Desprate housewives.

[Devils_Daughter]

sex sex sex and more sex

[devil13]

sex sex sex and more sex

is that an offer?

[skully]

yes but in a situation like that, its really=
white minority gender
1st place 1st place 1st place
2nd place 2nd place 2nd place
whats wrong with that? if you score 1st in your group then it shouldnt be a problem, right? where there is a problem is when they can only choose one and they go by gender or race instead of by score (which is also a form of discimination).

so you are saying that the highest test taker of each group gets promoted?

if so that is pretty much what happens b/c they have to meet diversification quotas. but what i don't like is the idea that if the minority or gender group scores 5 or 10 or 20th or whatever... gets bumped ahead of other test takers just because of meeting a quota.

i say the if their are five open positions then the top five people get first shot at the position regardless of race/gender...
if there are not enough minorities geting high enough test scores(which is definately NOT always the case) then go to the source... are the tests biast in some way. are instructors treating people different. are minorities taking the test not as smart due to poor education prior to joining the force are they taking advantage of study groups are their tutoring hours available etc.

i understand the need for diversification but i want it done in a fair manner not forced. and again i am using this one example... in which white people who scored high where shuffled behind someone who scored lower on the test... i would still make the same argument if the situation was reversed.

[devil13]

so you are saying that the highest test taker of each group gets promoted?

if so that is pretty much what happens b/c they have to meet diversification quotas. but what i don't like is the idea that if the minority or gender group scores 5 or 10 or 20th or whatever... gets bumped ahead of other test takers just because of meeting a quota.

i say the if their are five open positions then the top five people get first shot at the position regardless of race/gender...
if there are not enough minorities geting high enough test scores(which is definately NOT always the case) then go to the source... are the tests biast in some way. are instructors treating people different. are minorities taking the test not as smart due to poor education prior to joining the force are they taking advantage of study groups are their tutoring hours available etc.

i understand the need for diversification but i want it done in a fair manner not forced. and again i am using this one example... in which white people who scored high where shuffled behind someone who scored lower on the test... i would still make the same argument if the situation was reversed.

mainly I was talking about hiring situations but like I had said it is a problem when it comes down to just one. cuase then you have a discrimination suit on your hands. your fucked if you do and your fucked if you dont. I have every right to say an employer is discriminating and I could sue if I wanted to. If I was the employer I have every right to choose who I feel will do the best job. its really a no win situation.
here is a question for ya does hiring a hispanic women count as one or two on this quota scalle? your getting both race and gender all in one. or what if my mom is white and my dad is black then what quota do I fill?

[a_small_death]

As odd as this sounds I want an equal in my life as a life mate. How can a person go and say a woman is weak or inferior to men. Life is all about duality and such. Yet is it me or is america's most powerful obbsessed with the penis? Just look at some symbols of power.

[devil13]

As odd as this sounds I want an equal in my life as a life mate. How can a person go and say a woman is weak or inferior to men. Life is all about duality and such. Yet is it me or is america's most powerful obbsessed with the penis? Just look at some symbols of power.

but sexally women have all the power. they know in 15 min. after meeting you if you are getting laid or not. think about all the stupid things you have done just to get laid and think about all the things that you have had to change or give up for a woman. then ask yourself who has the power.

[eat-my-stockings]

any point which takes the absolute extreme is going to have a fair few glitches.

[Scar]

I have a few thoughts on the gender issue.

First, I think men and woman are different, whether it is instinctual behavior or learned behavior is besides the fact. For whatever reason, we are easy to distinguish from one another. I don't think however, that this should be limiting. Where the tactics used to accomplish things may vary, I don't think men and woman are more or less at an advantage. There is nothing a dude can do that I feel incapable of, aside from perhaps some heavy lifting but if it came down to necessity, I could use a dolly or a pulley. They lift, I use a dolly.... the task is completed either way.

However, I heard something recently that really stuck with me. A friend said that relationships are not meant to make us equals, they are meant to celebrate our differences, and that is something I really agree with. While I do feel equal in many ways to my lover, we are VERY different in others. When I strive too hard to be equal in all ways with him, I get frustrated, cause that is not possible. I am not referring to equality in a competitive sense, but in the way of having similar likes/ dislikes/ strengths etc. When I stop and admire him for who he is, despite some frustration it may cause at times, and appreciate that he and I are different but still happy together, things between us flow much more smoothly.

So, yeah.... men and woman are different, people are different, such is life, so learn to love it :-)

[Amelia G]

I have a few thoughts on the gender issue.

First, I think men and woman are different, whether it is instinctual behavior or learned behavior is besides the fact. For whatever reason, we are easy to distinguish from one another. I don't think however, that this should be limiting. Where the tactics used to accomplish things may vary, I don't think men and woman are more or less at an advantage. There is nothing a dude can do that I feel incapable of, aside from perhaps some heavy lifting but if it came down to necessity, I could use a dolly or a pulley. They lift, I use a dolly.... the task is completed either way.

However, I heard something recently that really stuck with me. A friend said that relationships are not meant to make us equals, they are meant to celebrate our differences, and that is something I really agree with. While I do feel equal in many ways to my lover, we are VERY different in others. When I strive too hard to be equal in all ways with him, I get frustrated, cause that is not possible. I am not referring to equality in a competitive sense, but in the way of having similar likes/ dislikes/ strengths etc. When I stop and admire him for who he is, despite some frustration it may cause at times, and appreciate that he and I are different but still happy together, things between us flow much more smoothly.

So, yeah.... men and woman are different, people are different, such is life, so learn to love it :-)

Human beings being tool-using mammals does put us all (male and female) at an advantage over other species.

[Bikerpunk]

I don't care what role a woman wants to have. I just want her to undestand it, define it, and stick to it.

[evilstonermonkey]

any woman can do anything they want to - as long as they are physically/financially/whatever capable to do it. but just as much that is the case for men, which often overlooked. when people see a woman trying to get into a male dominated occupation, she gets support and all that from the common people who 'applaud her right to equality and her willingness to go against the grain.' a man trying to get into a female dominated occupation is just wierd, and maybe a little suspicious.

i was raised colourblind in new zealand, where i had maori friends and family friends - but i have a very sexist mother. nd after my dad moved out, i was the only guy in a house with my sisers and that sexist bitch. i pretty quickly got sick of hearing her comment on what scum all men are, and her (sexist) comments that all men are sexist.

our culture is too obsessed with the past - looking back on all the time the white man opressed the racial minorities and women, we condemn racist whites and sexist men but sit idly when the minorities discriminate in their own way. too many times have i seen black people assume i was racist, before they knew me, before i even spoke, purely because im white. and thankfully that isnt what MOST black people do, it is a minority of the minority if youll excuse the expression. but we sit back and say 'well, us white men deserve to cop it since out ancient ancestors did do mean things to their ancient ancestors.'

sorry i got a bit ranty. its just something i encounter a lot, and people look at you like filth if you dare bring up that as a white man you might be being discriminated against.

[OrganizedKhaos]

It seems to me that the internet would be the perfect place to be color-blind and gender-blind, but the first thing most people seem to want to know online is whether the person they are talking to is really female. More and more women online are defining themselves as models. Even women who do not exactly do sit-ups every day are being reduced to token figureheads for organizations which want to pretend to be woman-friendly.

What types of positions should women hold in organizations both social and business-oriented? Do you feel that what you think should be the case is becoming more or less the case in actuality?

I'm gender and color blind ... I dont think either role is appropriate necessarily, (based on gender alone)it depends on the individual whether they should hold office or not.

I raise my kids to be both gender and color blind.... Eh, not blind but appreciate each individual and color for what they are and whats special about them.

BUT from the womb, they both showed traditional traits of gender.

Before my daughter could crawl she would hold baby dolls and rock them and pet them and kiss them.
Even though she was given a vast array of both "boy and girl" toys.

And my son, he was encouraged to play with dolls, and such, and even though he did, he still preferred cars and blocks and wanted to knock them down.

I heard a woman recently on TV on a show that will remain nameless...
She had a couple boys and a girl or something like that.

(I was like...OMG those are just like my kids)

The boys, when it was about time for the dad to get home from work, they would build tall buildings of blocks....just as soon as the dad would walk in they'd be like"HEY DAD!! WATCH THIS!!!" Then they'd knock down the big building with something crashing into it....

And giving the blocks to girls... they build little rooms for the family built for nurturing the family.

I KNOW THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULES...I WELCOME THEM AS WELL.

But I do think that neither gender is superior, and we each have our own pluses and minuses. Its important that we all band together as a puzzle and be what each other is natural to fit others needs.

AS A GENERAL RULE (this is neither inclusive or exclusive) girls are nurturing, and there should be more of this in office.(whatever it be)

As we've seen in office, guys (once again neither inclusive or exclusive) like to knock down things.

This often gives girls the opinion they are superior...
and girls with their "weakness of emotion" gives guys the opinion THEY are superior.


PEOPLE, WE NEED EACH OTHER.

[OrganizedKhaos]

My posts always look longer than they are because I break them up for easier internet reading.

[Bikerpunk]

The way I look at it, I wanna know if the person I'm talking to is a "pointer" or a "setter" in the washroom so I know how he/she is gonna hear what I'm gonna say.

[OrganizedKhaos]

HAHAHA!! Good one.

[Bikerpunk]

It's bloody true.

MAN AND WOMAN IN CONVERSATION.

Guy: Oh, I ran into Sheila in the CostCo. She said "How is Shelly doing?"
Woman: How did she say it?
Guy: What?
Woman: Did she say "How is Shelly doing?", "How is Shelly doing?", "How is Shelly doing?" or "How is Shelly doing?"
Guy: How the fuck should I know? She asked how you were and I said fine.
Woman: Did you say fine, or fine fine?
Guy: This is like that time you showed me two sets of identical shoes and started crying because I didn't notice one pair had a heel that was 1/8" larger than the other right?

[OrganizedKhaos]

I know, this sort of thing frustrates me with me and my husband, I want to know how people are doing and stuff and he only delivers the facts.
I've tried to train him on what questions he should ask and he trains me with when NOT to talk so much.....lol

(*trains* being a lack of a better word)