Feminism and Exotic dancers (strippers)

[Tequila Zaire]

forget "ugly" and "hot" women.. go back to my previous example, and take waht I just said in the context of a black and a white person. that would be very offensive and degrading. you can use semantics to disect the differences all you want, but the fact is that there is no subjectivity when it comes to peoples feelings and how they are valued based on discriminating atributes about them.

And I like I had stated clearly....race and "looks" are entirely diffrent but lets play with your example. All right...would I have issues with a black or a white stripper? Nope...as long as their hot.

Do I have preferance? Yes. What are they? depends on the mood for the night.

Discrimination based on attributes exists and is a major factor if you're trying to DO something you are NOT cut out for...in this case an ugly chick trying to be a stripper and get my $$$. Not gonna fucking happen. No amount of open minded progressive we're all equal bullshit is going to change that because at the end of the day it's just not true. If that is offensive...big deal. I'm sure someone else will pick her out of the line up and enjoy her services...it's just not me.

Do I use this in my day to day? Nope. It's not how I choose friends, workers, or conduct daily duties. When it comes to friends...you can be as ugly as a mule burned by acid for all I care so long as your cool.

But when it comes to lovers and fuck buddies...I kinda want to have a hard on about them. Call me backwards and insane but that's just the way my chemical make up likes to play.

[Tequila Zaire]

so what you are saying is that demonstrating to someone that they aren't worth your time and attention, not to mention showing that someone else, based soley on thier looks is more "qualified" to be given an income, whereas they are not, isn't demoralising and degrading to someone's self-esteem? you must not understand women very well.

It's pretty clear neither do you in this case...

What amazes me about this "debate" is how 6th grade it is. Pretty people are picked for certain jobs over ugly ones. That's not demoralizing or self esteem crushing if you're smart enough to know if you're good looking or not. Take me for instance...I'm no Brad Pitt...but I'm not 3000lbs Troll who lives under a bridge. I wouldn't find work as a model for example...but I probably could as a guy who takes pictures of models, manages them, does make up, etc. Do I want to do any of that? Hell no. But I think you can get the point. You work in and around what YOU can enjoy or thrive in. It can change as time goes on or remain constant but if you think ANYONE can do ANY job they desire well then you may have to realize sometimes it's just not gonna happen...not every girl will be a beauty queen and not every guy will get fucked by one. That's just life. People and things have standards you gotta meet to enter through their gates or in this case part their thighs.

It's all good though cause unless you're a complete naive fool you learn how to work all this to your advantage. An ugly guy can get rich and fuck supermodels for example or a REALLY ugly woman can get plastic surgery and become Miss Universe. Anything CAN happen provided you approach it the right way.

Like my ugly stripper who can't get my $$$...she COULD lose some weight, get in shape, and learn a trick or two...or she could get me really really drunk...both valid ways to earn my $$$...or hell catch me at a really low or generous mood. Anything can happen.

Who knows I could wake up tomrrow work out for the next year and become a movie star...or not.

[Supraastra]

I agree with TequilaZaire on this one. For godsakes, if I went to a strip club, I'd *undoubtably* pay more attention and give more money to a person I found attractive than one I found repellant. That's the friggin' idea! I'm not going to pass out money to all the strippers in the building just to be "fair", or to make sure I wasn't "discriminating". Going to a strip club is about looking at *attractive people* for fun.

Maybe the "ugly stripper" is a fantastic piano player. If I wanted to go see a piano recital I'd go see her. Because the idea of piano recitals is to hear good music. Dig?

And no, I don't think stripping is degrading, as long as the stripper chose the life willingly. There's nothing degrading about freedom of choice.

[sunkarma]

I think Forrest's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that a woman who was very qualified to work at a strip club might not find it demoralizing at all. I mean, we all have days we'd rather kill ourselves than take a shower and start the day, but it is a lot easier to get up for a job one excels at. It is very validating to do something well.

Basically, a girl who was physically beautiful, comfortable nude, proud of her body, good at dancing, outgoing, good at making small talk with strangers, comfortable with or even excited by physical proximity of other people, capable of maintaining an upbeat attitude, etc. would probably be well-compensated and appreciated at a dancer job. She could totally enjoy it.

Are there emotional/interpersonal pitfalls for girls who dance? Yes, I think there are.

But I think any job someone was poorly suited for would be demoralizing and degrading.

My point exactly. This is why I love you, Amelia.

[Morning Glory]

I guess that's where we disagree then. to me the idea of a qualified worker, is someone that actually has some kind of qualification for work. the fact is that anyone can be a stripper. anyone can stand around naked. there is some degree of dancing and "salesmanship" if you will, but no one can honesty argue that they go to a strip club because they really admire a girls clasical training in ballet. they go to see naked people. bottom line.
the only discrepency is between those that are hot and those that are not, which isn't really something that has anything to do with your ability to do anything at all, "ugly" girls can stil grind their vaginas on a mans penis, it doesn't know the difference. so I think that it's a little ridiculous to say that certain types of women that may be found unattractive are "poorly suited" to work at a job, since if allready demonstrarted it has nothing to do with the ability to be able to perform a function in reality, other than psychologically.
Now I can appreciate, as always, if not agree, as usual, with TZs honesty. what I am more in opposition to is trying to justify it through all these loops, instead of just admitting that it is shallow and one sided (not debating whether that is bad or good, just that it is.)who are you really trying to convince, me or you? I don't classify people on how they look, so I'm not the one that has to convince myself why someone is qualified or not for anything based on that.

[Amelia G]

I guess that's where we disagree then. to me the idea of a qualified worker, is someone that actually has some kind of qualification for work. the fact is that anyone can be a stripper. anyone can stand around naked. there is some degree of dancing and "salesmanship" if you will, but no one can honesty argue that they go to a strip club because they really admire a girls clasical training in ballet. they go to see naked people. bottom line.
the only discrepency is between those that are hot and those that are not, which isn't really something that has anything to do with your ability to do anything at all, "ugly" girls can stil grind their vaginas on a mans penis, it doesn't know the difference. so I think that it's a little ridiculous to say that certain types of women that may be found unattractive are "poorly suited" to work at a job, since if allready demonstrarted it has nothing to do with the ability to be able to perform a function in reality, other than psychologically.
Now I can appreciate, as always, if not agree, as usual, with TZs honesty. what I am more in opposition to is trying to justify it through all these loops, instead of just admitting that it is shallow and one sided (not debating whether that is bad or good, just that it is.)who are you really trying to convince, me or you? I don't classify people on how they look, so I'm not the one that has to convince myself why someone is qualified or not for anything based on that.

The internet has spawned this huge crop of girls who think they are models, but who are not qualified for me to book them as they neither look exceptional nor do anything exceptional. I'm generally more interested in photographing someone if they both look good and do something interesting, so I agree with you that sometimes it is good to look for more that just appearance. Where I disagree is the suggestion that appearance is not a qualification or that stripping is not a job.

I am going to candidly admit that I often do not like what stripping will do to someone's personality. Some people have the constitution for it and some people can't leave that job at the office. A certain sort of flirty warmth is totally appropriate in the strip club and, in that context, no one should believe the girl actually cares about them as a person. Some girls will take that style of interaction into other parts of their lives where it just makes them untrustyworthy, unpleasant, and manipulative. Some girls, the only thing they take to other areas of their lives is increased confidance and an improved ability to make conversation and be fun to be around. It very much depends on the person.

How successful a stripper will be depends a lot on her ability to market herself or find someone who can market her and how committed she is to the job. Someone who takes it seriously and works at least forty hours a week and does secondary gigs to make her name bigger is going to be more successful than someone who only dances on the 2nd of every month when the rent is past due.

I suppose one could argue that most of a stripper's job is just showing up, but how many jobs are not like that? Would you disrespect retail clerks and receptionists?

Stripping is a job, no easier or more difficult than many other types of jobs. It is only easier if a girl is particularly qualified. Merely looking good is not the only qualification and looking good is not an accident.

Do you have any idea how much effort women who are successfully professionally good-looking put into their appearance? A successful stripper will generally not only need exercise, but will generally invest in plastic surgery, be constantly mindful of how much she eats, learn how to do her own makeup or hire someone who can do it well, determine how to craft a fantasy-inspiring image for herself or work with someone who can craft one, make or commission costumes which will make her stand out, etc. Now all women do this to some extent, so you personally might be uncomfortable with a woman who was so focused on that, but there is no saying it requires no qualifications other than genetic luck of the draw.

[Morning Glory]

I appreciate your insightful commentary on this subject amelia. those are very good points. I guess at the end of the day it comes down to personal opinion, and I feel that the disadvantages caused by that industry outweigh the benefits of something that is usesless to society, in my opinion. if you need it to get off or have a good time, well then I guess it's your perogative. However, I find it kind of sad and would hope people could take such pleasure in things that are more intellectually stimulating.

[ForrestBlack]

...no one can honesty argue that they go to a strip club because they really admire a girls clasical training in ballet. they go to see naked people. bottom line.

I can. Plain old naked people bore me to tears at this point, but I'd go watch fully clothed gymnastics on a Saturday night if they wore cool outfits and served decent beer.

[TheDeathKnight]

And that also makes a point...

People who see naked people all the time, are bored by it.

But if you don't get to get any real naked people around you very often,
a strip club is indeed a treat.

You have to get something out of it...

MG claims to think that it is not of value to him.
And why is that?
Is it because you would rather do something else?
Or because you have someone who gets naked for you?
Or you have already seen too many naked people?
That's fine if it bores you, or you are not into it.
But the people who pay at those clubs, do it because
they *do* enjoy it, and they *do* get off on it, and they
*do* get something out of it.

I tend to go to strip clubs only when I am single, and only
when I am missing that real experience of a female.
I'm not claiming it is "real", but it's a lot more real
that looking at porn on the internet...

The nice thing about a strip club, as opposed to a one night
stand, is there is no awkward situation, no regrets, etc...

I think I remember a quote by Charlie Sheen, about why he
would hire Heidi Fleiss girls, when he could get lots of fan
girls... He said he did not pay them for sex. He paid them
to leave...

A bit crude and rude, but he has a good point.
Sometimes you just want to see some nakedness,
and get some sexual stimulation, but you do not
want all the hassles of a relationship, or a disease, etc...

Strip clubs are fairly safe fun, although a bit pricey
for what you get...

[Supraastra]

Here here, DeathKnight. That also brings up a good point. Strip club customers are not looking for the same things from a stripper that they are from a significant other. I mean, I know that's super obvious, but it should be said regardless.

Your significant other may stimulate you sexually, but in a different way than a stripper would, and for different reasons.

I would also disagree with Morning Glory on the "classical ballet" point. I would MOST DEFINITELY rather see a graceful, talented stripper than a woman standing around naked. There IS a lot of skill involved in stripping (if you do it well). It's an art that's been around in some form since basically forever.

I don't even much dig girls but I like watching strippers "do their thing". It's cool.

[karyn]

i have hated almost every stripper i ever met. not that many and maybe i know some who strip who don't say. but in principle i believe in a woman's right to choose.

[ForrestBlack]

Just 'cuz she dances go-go
It don't make her a ho, no
Maxine, put your dance shoes on
We going to the disco
We gonna eeelope to Meeeexico

Called up my mama, said I'm in love with a stripper, yo

[Jax]

I stripped for about oh, 4-5 years off and on. Strip clubs are there to cater to a variety of customers. I may be pretty to one guy/gal and hideous to the next. Its all about flavor;] I know men who absolutely love their women, but also enjoy the night out at the strip clubs, I tend to think it kinda spices things up.

That said, my best customers were old men (average age, 60). They were very sweet, and enjoyed the conversation as much as the dancing. Ive given men advice on how to fix relationships, etc. Sometimes a stranger can be your best friend, especially when you think they have the looks, the talent and the brain. I would like to see more strippers that actually dance though, I tried to be artistic and origional on stage, and thats what drew me my repeat customers;]