Feminism and Exotic dancers (strippers)

[sunkarma]

This was first published online back in 2001. It's copyrighted by moi. Just thought it would raise some convo....

By: Sun Karma
(copyright 2001 and may not be reproduced without written permission of Sun karma)

Feminism and Exotic Dancers:
Freedom of Choice vs. The Identity of Womanhood
I. Introduction
Feminists and exotic dancers are clearly in separate camps, but arguments in recent years over the issues of personal rights, freedom of expression, and conflicts with feminist ideologies based on the belief that stripping causes harm to the identity of womanhood, have become prevalent examples of the way an issue can divide the population. While feminists have argued that stripping, like pornography, inherently subjugates and degrades women, strippers argue that they are participating in their free right to expression and to financial gain through their craft. Feminists argue that strippers are manipulated within a system that has long focused on the objectification of women, while strippers contend that their activities open women up to a greater sense of personal freedom.
The conflict in recent years has been heightened by a call for unionization of exotic dancers and the desire for an economic and social perspective on the profession that adds a level of credibly. Feminists and women’s organizations, including labor unions in predominately female occupations have protested against the emergence of exotic dancer unions, that they claim negates the legitimacy of organized labor and the legitimacy of women’s roles in the workforce.
In order to understand the basic elements that have led to a more concerted focus on labor-related issues and exotic dancers, it is necessary to consider the existing struggle for feminist ideals, the nature of arguments surrounding the sociological elements that have supported the subjugation of women, and the perspectives offered by women who support the right of exotic dancers to participate as a viable and organized labor entity. One of the major elements that exists in considering this issue is that there is clearly a divided perspective within the general public: women who are not either feminists or strippers have conflicting perspectives on the viability of both arguments. It has been recognized that women in the general population either firmly believe that stripping negatively impacts the social perception of women and damages women’s prospects for legitimacy, or they believe that strippers have little impact.

II. The Struggle for Feminist Ideals
Since the 1960s, feminist perspectives have transformed the role of women in American society. But in recent years, social and cultural advancement and diversification of women in the culture has resulted in the decline of feminist perspectives (Brenner, 1993). The standard arguments regarding the gender-bias in society and the notion of the subjugation of women have come under fire by feminists and non-feminists alike, recognizing that the early notions of feminism have now created a culture of victimization. At the same time, an increasing indifference to the arguments of feminism as well as a general perception of helplessness in the main political trends of the feminist movement have reduced the effectiveness of the continuity of feminist messages (Brenner, 1993).
This struggle in the identifying characteristics and in support for the feminist message comes into clearer perspective when considering issues like pornography and exotic dancing, that appear at the onset to be in direct conflict with the premises of feminism, but that still remain as significant components of the Americanized perception of women. It has been argued that expressions of human sexuality like those displayed by women exotic dancers, inherently contributes to the subjugation of women, and that it is deeply rooted in a social norm of female objectification. It may seem surprising in a society that has struggled to bring women into the forefront both political and socially, that exotic dancers, peep shows and pornographic depictions of women are still so commonplace.
The reason for this, though, is that there clearly is not a standard notion of the impact or underpinnings of exotic dancing and pornographic depictions of women and no clear sense of a national response. Even among women’s groups in the nation, there is a division of perspectives; some women support the right of others to participate in these activities, even if they believe that the actions themselves may have negative repercussions. In other words, it is not dissimilar to the perspectives surrounding abortion rights: though some women may find abortion aberrant, they can still support another woman’s right to make that choice.
The arguments that exist are complex and deeply rooted in the feminist ideologies and in the economic and social trends that have supported the industry for exotic dancers. In order to consider this issue, it is necessary to evaluate the existing arguments, and then consider the imbeddedness of the social elements that have marked a general sense of social acceptability for exotic dancing in the existing culture.

III. Argument #1: Strippers Have Rights
Exotic dancers, peep show performers, and even women outside of this industry, believe that women’s rights must support the right of women to participate in exotic dancing. In essence, it has been argued that the struggle by feminists for the rights of women and their right to make their own economic and social choices must inherently incorporate the right of exotic dancers to choose their profession and support their own financial stability through the work. Exotic dancers have regularly argued that they provide an entertainment service that is both economically viable and that supports a working class ethic that allows for creativity and personal independence (Guidroz, 1996). Many exotic dancers consider themselves to be artists, struggling for a means of self-expression, and that the use of exotic dancing as an avenue for this expression provides both artistic and economic support (Guidroz, 1996).
Many of these women also recognize that it is not a perfect scenario. Many wish they could participate in an artistic format for the expression of their craft without having to experience the adverse impacts of male clients, who commonly give credit only for the performers body and not for the essence of the performance itself (Guidroz, 1996). Still, the prevalent perspective within the profession is that stripping provides women with an artistic outlet, a lucrative career options, and promotes individual independence (Anonymous, 1996).
A number of strip clubs and organizations of this type provide instructional classes that teach women the ins and outs of exotic dancing (Anonymous, 1996). In essence, they are designed to add support for an industry and bring performers into line with customer expectations (Anonymous, 1996). Supporters of this type of industry argue that they are like many other professions, and offer training and incentives for women to improve their craft (Anonymous, 1996). Critics suggest that this industry is simply based in sex-for-sale and that it is no different than legalized prostitution, an element that has long been considered a violation of the very nature of womanhood.
The real question that must be considered is if the nature of the industry itself should compel women into opposition, or if there is a clear enough determination that individual rights should outweigh any moral opposition to the industry. Many exotic dancers have argued that their lifestyle has been vastly improved by their career choice: that they have moved from welfare dependence and obscurity to a career that provides economic support, assists in the maintenance of families, and promotes a greater sense of individual efficacy. If any other profession had been discussed in terms of these factors, there would be little obvious opposition; women have struggled for decades to find professions that were both artistically and economically feasible. But it is the inherent nature of the moral, ethical and social issues surrounding exotic dancing, not the outcomes for each individual dancer, that become the essence of opposition arguments.

[sunkarma]

(part II)
IV. Argument #2: The Profession Damages Women
Feminists like Catherine MacKinnon, have long argued that elements like pornography have negatively impacted women because they are definitive acts taken in violation of women (Stark, 1997). Unfortunately for feminists, the courts have generally not agreed that pornography in itself is an act taken against a woman, and recognizes the active choice that women make and the necessity to support individual rights, including the rights to freedom of speech (Stark, 1997). This fundamental inequity in the perceptions of what constitutes a violation of a woman has long been an essential problem in the arguments surrounding opposition to things like exotic dancing. It appears that there is often support for the freedom of choice of each woman, rather than the focus on the detriment that this kind of activity can pose on society as a whole.
Even though there is considerable support for the maintenance of the profession of exotic dancing, an emerging message from ex-exotic dancers in recent years has fueled the continued opposition to this profession by feminists. A former peep show performer and exotic dancer argued that it is not the process of dancing itself, but the degrading experience that is brought to the industry by male patrons that distinguishes the difference between an active and acceptable profession and one that is inherently degrading (Guidroz, 1996).
The essence of the argument of feminists is rooted in the perception of the impacts of pornography and the objectification of women on men’s attitudes and the development of the identity of womanhood as a whole. This stems from considerable research regarding the social and psychological impacts of pornography on the development of men’s attitudes and the nature of emerging social trends that have come from this base (Davies, 1997). It has been recognized that there is a link between perceptions of men and their ensuing attitudes and the prevalence of X-rated depictions of women; research shows that the objectification of women and the increasing acceptability of violence against women appear to be linked to the prevalence of X-rated depictions (Davies, 1997).
A recent study by Davies (1997) attempted to evaluate the issues of the prevalence of X-rated depictions and the overall perspectives and social attitudes of men. In this study, the researcher found that there was generally not obvious connection between the number of X-rated videos that a man rented and his perceptions regarding the Equal Rights Amendment, laws against marital **** and punitive actions for **** and marital **** (Davies, 1997). What the researcher did find was even more disconcerting and supported the feminist perspective: that sexually explicit depictions of women that demonstrate objectification are so deeply ingrained in the social notion of womanhood that a growing callousness has resulted (Davies, 1997).
Though exotic dancers have argued that this kind of objectification does not exist and have suggested that they pursue their career as a means of artistic expression for economic gain, there are elements in the individual perspectives of strippers that contrast this perspective. For example, strippers frequently keep their real names secret, working under pseudonyms in order to reduce the stigmatization in their life outside of work (Snowden, 1993). Though this may be common in exotic dancing, it is not a common action taken by individuals who are proud of their profession and have a support mechanism in place to accept their active profession. Most regular dancers have no need to change their name, but exotic dancers recognize the possible repercussion based in social unacceptability of their profession and the possible pursuit of patrons that may end in unrequited attachments.
The very image of exotic dancing in itself makes a statement about the philosophical and social issues regarding this profession and the impacts on perceptions about women. The following is an outline of a possible scenario provided by Snowden (1993):

...sooner or later every man must face the siren call of a naked woman undulating toward him on a scuzzy, spotlit stage, her G-string stuffed with dollar bills (pp. 140).

Snowden (1993) goes on to reflect upon the way men react to this vision: “Does he howl at the stage like a dog in heat? Does he bolt from the spectacle like a young George Will? Or does he act with uncommon grace and courtesy, distinguishing himself from the rude, slobbering mob?” (pp. 140. This perspective on exotic dancing does not exactly set the scene for support for the notion of creative expression or for the appropriate defining of female value.
Even exotic dancers themselves have had varying perceptions of the representation of women in their profession and decline in the level legitimacy in the profession of exotic dancing as a whole. Former exotic dancer Katherine Goldberg of Ontario, Canada, for example, established the Association for Burlesque Entertainers as a means of separating exotic dancers from strippers, arguing that the participation in clearly negative behaviors, including lap dancing, which involves physical contact between customers and dancers (Childely, 1995). It is Goldberg’s contention, as well as the argument of many exotic dancers, that the negative perceptions of feminists are rooted in the misconception that there is only one perspective on exotic dancing: one that inherently damages the sexual and social perceptions towards women (Chidley, 1995). But the call for increasing unionization among exotic dancers and the determination of the need for greater legitimacy in the profession in general has challenged the focus of the national debate.
V. The Impacts of Unionization and Legitimacy
In recent years, labor leaders have actually addressed the exploitation of exotic dancers, not as the focus of feminist debates, but as an element of the call for unionization for a population that has been deemed as the “lowest-paid and most exploited workers” in the United States (Anonymous, 1997, pp. 24). In cities like San Francisco, where sex clubs are popular, and where live dancing is a prominent feature of these clubs, the notion of the economic and social exploitation of exotic dancers comes into greater focus (Anonymous, 1997).
As a result of criticism about the economic hardship of women who dance in these clubs, some have turned to organized labour for help in order to guarantee pay levels, work hours, job security, and provide occasional holiday pay (Anonymous, 1997). Some organized groups of exotic dancers have actually gone on strike to demonstrate their tenacity and promote a level of legitimacy as a workforce (Anonymous, 1997). Strippers have turned to local union support in San Francisco, joining Local 790 of the Service Employees International, but not without protest (Anonymous, 1997). The problem that persists is that many people perceive of the unionization of strippers as a having a negative impact on the overall perceptions of organized labor as a whole. Because most exotic dancers earn between $12 and $25 an hour, the perception that they are somehow an impoverished sect of exploited workers in need of union support does not hold much weight in union organizations (Anonymous, 1997).
There is one other element that must be considered when evaluating the use of union systems and contracts to support the stability of this profession: age discrimination is prevalent in a field that requires women to be energetic, nubile, and imbue their sexuality, and claims against club owners based on age discrimination will be impacted if unionization becomes widespread (Anonymous, 1993). The failure of topless dancers to support their claims of age discrimination brings into question the viability of developing a unionized contracting system.
The process of unionization not only brings into question the viability of this system, but also the ethics of it. Is it right to compare a 30 year veteran of the service industry with a 19 year-old stripper earning $25 an hour because of her appearance, and is there equity in the differentiation that exists. Feminists would argue that the whole process of unionization for strippers demonstrated the imbeddedness of the vision of women, and the increasing acceptability of maintaining objectification. In contrast, exotic dancers would simply assert that they were getting their fair share, and that they were being allowed to act as viable, legitimate and acceptable individuals in an existing industry.

(conclusion below)

[sunkarma]

--The conclusion to it all is....---
VI. Conclusion
One of the major flaws in the arguments presented by feminists is that they often challenge the specificity of the profession rather than the complexity of the issue as it relates to the perception of women as a whole. In general, research has suggested that there is an imbeddedness to the perception of woman as sexual objects and that has led to the acceptance of both sexual and violent messages surrounding the nature of womanhood as a whole. The example provided of the study of men and pornographic viewing that suggests that attitudes are not significantly shaped by the amount of pornographic exposure suggests that the existence of strip clubs and men’s participation should not dramatically impact the attitudes towards women. Instead, the very nature of society itself is the determinant of the negative attitudes towards women and has become the focus of debates, and it is evident that any attack by feminists needs to focus on this element of social development.
Unfortunately, strip clubs and exotic dancers are not the problem, though they often take the brunt of the force of arguments from feminist organizations. Strip clubs and exotic dancers are clearly a symptom of a larger sociological and psychological cultural identity that is deeply imbedded in the development of gender roles and in the perspectives on womanhood as a whole. This cultural identity has been shaped by centuries of developments, and though it has been impacted by the development of arguments by feminists since the 1960s, it has also fallen to the wayside in light of arguments regarding specific actions by groups of women that have been perceived as challenges to the standard notion of feminism.
The two arguments presented each have validity based on the perspective of those issuing the opinions. For strippers who have gained economic success, relieved their dependence on welfare and improved the condition of their own livelihood, the benefits of this kind of profession are undeniable. It is easy to reflect upon the moral issues of this kind of profession and suggest that economic successes have little value when interpreting the profession in terms of the larger picture, but it would be an unconvincing argument when posed to a stripper who once lived on the streets. Similarly, though, the perceptions of feminists have equal value within the realm of their role: the notion that women are reproductive or sexual beings without necessity to consider the other aspects of their viability has long been a significant and important argument of feminists.
As a means of more effectively addressing the issue of the objectification of women, it may be necessary to move away from examples like exotic dancing and focus more directly on the larger picture: women have been objectified for centuries not based on exotic dancing, but as an element of the social structure, the power asserted by men, and the level at which these factors unite in defining the nature of womanhood. Only by determining a root for change and bringing together a national perspective is it possible for feminists to develop a viable, visible and usable notion of womanhood.

Opinions...thoughts...anyone?
This article is old, and needs revising..but it still has some valid points. I am a feminist that is FOR dancing (and burlesque). I don't think it degrades women. It is the WOMAN'S choice..not societies..to make judgement.

Sun

[devil13]

wow thats allot to read but I agree. it is a persons choice to do what they want with thier life as long as your not harming anyone or yourself.
I dont care for feminsts. they do some good for women but how can you be the voice for all women? everyone is diferent and has diferent views on life. so why follow someone else's view when you can have your own view of things?
just my 2 cents though.

[BrightStar]

I think that both sides should do what they want on their own, and not bother the other side.

I know a bunch of Women around here that claimed to be feminist, and disliked the idea of Women stripping for Money, but they were also the same Women who wouldn't shut up about after they went to a club to check out Male Strippers.

I HATE Hypocrates.

**

[sunkarma]

LOL.....I agree.

[a_small_death]

No one forces a person to do anything they don't want to. In the sex industry especially. Most know what they're getting into when they sign up. It's a person's choice to do what ever they want. Course this is nothing you don't already know.

[Tequila Zaire]

May sound a bit cruel...but I can honestly say I never really much cared for the reasons why a stripper did anything in my days when I enjoyed them...though I never disrespected them and still fancy them as people...at the time when I was a customer I just saw them as performing a service like anything else.

Femenists sometimes (all the time?) make men out to be far more complicated than we really are about our views on women. It's not an extreme where we hate them all or love them all...it's like anything else. You take it as it comes, in some cases quite literally.

That said though the cruelest things I've seen done to women are usually by other women...so much for sisterhood.

[sunkarma]

That said though the cruelest things I've seen done to women are usually by other women...so much for sisterhood.

So true. How many times has a woman gone after the other woman when a man was cheating when it was his fault (or hers) that he cheated in the first place? Alot of women see other women as 'bitches' they have to compete with.

Alot of my female friends have stabbed me in the back over men...I let it go. But you are right. When will we stop and be the 'sisterhood' we are supposed to be?

Meow....

Sun

[Amelia G]

That said though the cruelest things I've seen done to women are usually by other women...so much for sisterhood.

Good point and, oh, so very very true.

[Morning Glory]

they aren't performing a service, they are selling sexuality. that's the bottom line, other than in very modern naturalistic perception, the entire point of looking at someone naked is because it is reminicent of sex.considering thats stripping simulates sexual activity, and porn flat out enagages in it, it can't be arguaged that the point of this industry is to enjoy the human body as an aesthetic and artist perspective and that it's not about sex, because it so very blatantly obviously is.
I wouldn't say that I was opposed to strip clubs per se, but I wouldn't go to one because I don't need to pay for sex or view women as purely instraments of sex, and since that's the whole point of a strip club and everyone that goes there, there's no point in me to go there. I don't think that neccesarily makes anyone who goes there a bad person, just a shallow one. as far as the people that perform there, I don't think that makes them bad people unless they are naive or hypocritical, which most of them are. if they can admit to the fact that they are selling thier bodies and thier sexuality for monetary gain or attention, then I don't have a problem with them. The only problem I have is that they are probibly lazy, because if thier motivation was to make money, then they could make more without having to resort to a shallow medium but most are not willing to work harder for it, otherwise they would be doing that and not working in a strip club.
I'm not basing this on thin air but on several people I've know in this profession. one of which said it was about "female empowerment", when further pressed it became clear she just said that to justify it to herself and couldn't really back it up, and then admitted she just did it for the money. I told her of an office desk job I was aware of that would hire her and pay more, she then said " yeah, but then i'd actaully have to do work. here I just get to stand around and do nothing (as long as she is naked) and get paid for it."

[Tequila Zaire]

Sure they're performing a service...dancing half naked or totally naked as I drink and bullshit with friends is a much needed service. It has a sexual vibe to it of course but it's not sex as an act really. If I wanted that I'd go to the brothel...and the beauty of that is you can do what you gotta do without the hassle usually associated with sex. No emotion just a service. You may see sex as a bit deeper than I but it can be shallow and just a basic need that needs to be attended to like taking a piss.

It's just a fun way to kill a few hours and some cash...strippers/dancers/etc. do something that most women don't...it's a nice little treat from time to time. It's nothing serious or earth shattering...it's just damn good fun and with the right ones...REALLY fun. They simply make it something far more than one could think it would be.

Those that think hard about WHY women do this...well...have fun with that. I personally don't care. It's just fun to watch and worth my few bucks every so often. Not everthing one does or engages in has to have deep meaning and purpose after all.

Besides...the day watching young women get naked and dance around as I drink becomes a bad thing...*shudders* that's just a sick thought.

I like seeing women at times as pure instruments of sex or symbols of raw sexuality...hell...if I have to see EVERY woman as I do my own mother or some sweet innocent equal to me who I respect without question....I'd be bored to death. I know every porn star, stripper, etc. is someones daughter, mother, wife, etc...but I don't care about any of that as I watch them.

At that moment in time on stage they are simply a creature to enjoy be it visually or physically. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Evilbink]

May sound a bit cruel...but I can honestly say I never really much cared for the reasons why a stripper did anything in my days when I enjoyed them...though I never disrespected them and still fancy them as people...at the time when I was a customer I just saw them as performing a service like anything else.

Femenists sometimes (all the time?) make men out to be far more complicated than we really are about our views on women. It's not an extreme where we hate them all or love them all...it's like anything else. You take it as it comes, in some cases quite literally.

That said though the cruelest things I've seen done to women are usually by other women...so much for sisterhood.

Fully agree and not the first time..

[sunkarma]

From MGLORY:I'm not basing this on thin air but on several people I've know in this profession. one of which said it was about "female empowerment", when further pressed it became clear she just said that to justify it to herself and couldn't really back it up, and then admitted she just did it for the money. I told her of an office desk job I was aware of that would hire her and pay more, she then said " yeah, but then i'd actaully have to do work. here I just get to stand around and do nothing (as long as she is naked) and get paid for it."

Oooh. How sad. 'she'd actually have to DO WORK?' How flippin' lazy is that?
But people don't realize what a workout it can be dancing if you do it right..burlesque (NON NUDE) and spinning around a pole aren't easy things to do..you have to have upper arm strength, blah blah blah.
But that really IS sad.
I think she just might like the attention..some girls do.

S

[ForrestBlack]

I think it is important to draw a distinction between a potentially empowering activity and how exactly people use or react to that power and freedom. Financial independence and schedule flexibility should offer people a lot of positive options. Some people take advantage of those options and some people don't, some people even destroy themselves, while others lift their station in life. Freedom is about having the ability to make choices, even if they are wrong or stupid. I honestly feel that people misassociate liberation with guaranteed empowered positive progress. Liberation is freedom and that even includes the freedom to run your life in an unhealthy way. Some do and some don't.

[Tequila Zaire]

Oooh. How sad. 'she'd actually have to DO WORK?'

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt though...maybe she thinks "real work" is like an office job or retail...I hate those kind of jobs myself and would do whatever is needed to avoid them you know? But there are people who simply hate so called real jobs out there and given the hassle and stress they cause I can't blame em.

[sunkarma]

On the topic of 'liberation'...

I'm liberating myself to be completely stupid and ignorant so I can live in bliss the rest of my life (ignorance is bliss) the world is a sad and terrible place and since I can't blow it up, gotta live here, damn it...

[Morning Glory]

On the topic of 'liberation'...

I'm liberating myself to be completely stupid and ignorant so I can live in bliss the rest of my life (ignorance is bliss)

I think we just came up with the new campaign slogan for the republican party.

[sunkarma]

It's sad..cuz I'm a democrat!

[tinstar]

I could add something meaningful to this debate, but as it happens, I am kinda pissed about something vaguely related at this particular moment....

There is a "saint" in my household. I think every household has one. Turns out, this little saint has been seen by my friends (who dance in a strip club) at the bar where they work recently. Funny how it is always the saints who make the best sinners.

The situation makes me want to puke. I always get the sinner tag, and growing up, felt so small because I could never reach this person's glorious heights as a human being. Got older, generally got over it... Until now... Now, I am just confused about what to feel. Now, I see that it was even more of a waste of my time than I thought to have had guilty feelings about anything I've done, and it pisses me off more than ever.

The only satisfaction I get when I think about it is that I shagged some of the girls he has to pay to rub on him. It's not much, but I spose it is enough...

[TheDeathKnight]

I always think it's interesting how people's attitudes and backgrounds affect how they view stripping. Some people think it's gross, degrading, etc, etc, etc... But other people could care less, and think of it as harmless entertainment.

I think people should stop putting so much importance on this stuff.

It's naked people dancing around.
It's sexy.
People enjoy it.

It's not "good" or "bad"...

[tinstar]

I always think it's interesting how people's attitudes and backgrounds affect how they view stripping. Some people think it's gross, degrading, etc, etc, etc... But other people could care less, and think of it as harmless entertainment.

I think people should stop putting so much importance on this stuff.

It's naked people dancing around.
It's sexy.
People enjoy it.

It's not "good" or "bad"...

True... I wouldn't say that it is bad by its nature. FB's statement probly hits the mark most accurately for me.

I think it is important to draw a distinction between a potentially empowering activity and how exactly people use or react to that power and freedom. Financial independence and schedule flexibility should offer people a lot of positive options. Some people take advantage of those options and some people don't, some people even destroy themselves, while others lift their station in life. Freedom is about having the ability to make choices, even if they are wrong or stupid. I honestly feel that people misassociate liberation with guaranteed empowered positive progress. Liberation is freedom and that even includes the freedom to run your life in an unhealthy way. Some do and some don't.

My point was simply my amazement at how people can still somehow disappoint me, even now... I really don't care what other people think, as long as they are strong people and truly believe in what they say instead of being hypocritical little boys searching for an excuse for their constant thumb-sucking.

[OliX]

that's complicated topic for me... one thing I can say that some groups went extremly over and pased from feminism to shovinism.... I dislike those...

btw this topic reminded me of a joke:

Y'all know story about how god created earth and everithing in 6 days.... made Adam and stuff.
So after watching Adam bothering in eden god decides to do something. He comes to him and says:
Adam, I will make a woman for you, she will love you, cock for you, take care of you, make you children, even raise them for you BUT you need to give me your right arm, left leg and your right nut....

After a while of thinking Adam asks: What can you give me for a rib?

[sunkarma]

Let me just say "it's a job" just like doing IT is a job, networking is a job, retail is a job...it is the same thing. There is a distinction. Trust me. I could get more into it..but I don't want to.

[Morning Glory]

it's pretty easy to say that stripping is just a job, but when you consider that it carries more people that are drug users and have been sexually assualted at a young age then any other profession, besides prostituion, you may want to consider the psychological state of someone in that position as a little bit more of an issue then merely thier desire to work at an occupation. the bottom line is that these people are psychologically damaged and they feel like they have to be degraded or treated as a sex objecst for anyone to care about them or pay attention to them and that is a flat out lie and the business does nothing to discourage that thought.

[incog]

it's pretty easy to say that stripping is just a job, but when you consider that it carries more people that are drug users and have been sexually assualted at a young age then any other profession, besides prostituion, you may want to consider the psychological state of someone in that position as a little bit more of an issue then merely thier desire to work at an occupation. the bottom line is that these people are psychologically damaged and they feel like they have to be degraded or treated as a sex objecst for anyone to care about them or pay attention to them and that is a flat out lie and the business does nothing to discourage that thought.

What is so degrading about strip clubs?

Some people only have their sex appeal to make other people value them. Before I started making my own money, a lot of girls bought me groceries and I don't think they did it because I'm such a nice guy.

[Tequila Zaire]

Before I started making my own money, a lot of girls bought me groceries and I don't think they did it because I'm such a nice guy.

Well they always told me it's cause I was nice. Though you'd have to replace bought with stole and groceries with virginity.

[incog]

Well they always told me it's cause I was nice. Though you'd have to replace bought with stole and groceries with virginity.

They stole you virginity? Rock on, dude.

[Tequila Zaire]

They stole you virginity? Rock on, dude.

It was a magical time...though technically she was more like a glorified go-go dancer. I still have an a fond affection for go go dancers to this day...plus they are just amazingly hot most of the time.

[Morning Glory]

What is so degrading about strip clubs?

Some people only have their sex appeal to make other people value them. Before I started making my own money, a lot of girls bought me groceries and I don't think they did it because I'm such a nice guy.

that's sad. you do seem like a nice guy.
I don't see why people have no problem with judging people based on thier (perceived) sexuality and gender. you wouldn't make such character assesements based on thier skin color so why put so much value into how someone looks? there's really no difference.

[Tequila Zaire]

that's sad. you do seem like a nice guy.
I don't see why people have no problem with judging people based on thier (perceived) sexuality and gender. you wouldn't make such character assesements of absed based on thier skin color so why put so much value into how someone looks? there's really no difference.

Race and looks are very VERY different things. Looks are superficial and fleeting but they do have value in ways that our society has made clear through various forms of media and art. Take a BB model for example...before I actually knew how interesting many were as people my thoughts of them were pretty simple "God damn that girl is hot."

When you see something or someone you as an individual think is hot it has quite a powerful effect. It gets people to do all sorts of things...be it buying swimsuit calanders or going to see movies of a particualrly hot actor or even a band with a to die for lead singer.

A persons look again may be superficial but it's enjoyable. Pretty people are fun to look at and fawn over occasionally. They are like walking peices of living art...eventually it will rot into worm food so why not enjoy it and let it inspire while it's here?

Plus I'm not paying $$$ for a lap dance from an ugly chick just cause she has a nice personality.

[Morning Glory]

Plus I'm not paying $$$ for a lap dance from an ugly chick just cause she has a nice personality.

that's why you are an asshole. thanks for doing my job for me and proving why strip clubs are degrading.

[ForrestBlack]

that's why you are an asshole. thanks for doing my job for me and proving why strip clubs are degrading.

Hmmm... I wouldn't work in a Jiffy Lube because I'd probably be bad at it (at least while I was learning the required tasks.) It would be demoralizing to do a job you were not qualified for, but that doesn't mean that people who are good at the job should't do it either. It probably isn't as degrading to them.

[Tequila Zaire]

that's why you are an asshole. thanks for doing my job for me and proving why strip clubs are degrading.

Oh please...

You're being unrealistic and laughable in your views of denying something as simple as looks when it comes to sexuality. It's not degrading to want a hot girl grinding into you for $$$ nor is it degrading not to want some ugly chick to do the same.

But hey...if you want some ugly chick grinding into you then by all means have at it.

I mean fuck...would ANY guy pay $$$ to get a lap dance from a woman he found disgusting? If I want talk then personality goes a long way...if I want to get off...it's gonna take more than talk.

Unless it's phone sex.

[One Eyed Cat]

To me, it would depend on whether the women were doing it by their own volition or by force. A lot of women are being trafficked out of Eastern Europe and forced to work as prostitutes, strippers etc for little to no money. If women are choosing to do it and people are paying to see it, I may think its lame but should remain legal.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

Hmmm... I wouldn't work in a Jiffy Lube because I'd probably be bad at it (at least while I was learning the required tasks.) It would be demoralizing to do a job you were not qualified for, but that doesn't mean that people who are good at the job should't do it either. It probably isn't as degrading to them.

so what you are saying is that demonstrating to someone that they aren't worth your time and attention, not to mention showing that someone else, based soley on thier looks is more "qualified" to be given an income, whereas they are not, isn't demoralising and degrading to someone's self-esteem? you must not understand women very well.

[Morning Glory]

forget "ugly" and "hot" women.. go back to my previous example, and take waht I just said in the context of a black and a white person. that would be very offensive and degrading. you can use semantics to disect the differences all you want, but the fact is that there is no subjectivity when it comes to peoples feelings and how they are valued based on discriminating atributes about them.

[Morning Glory]

ya know maybe if you followed my example then you would have people that were willing to hang around with you and comfort you and you wouldn't have to resort to paying strangers for it.

[Amelia G]

so what you are saying is that demonstrating to someone that they aren't worth your time and attention, not to mention showing that someone else, based soley on thier looks is more "qualified" to be given an income, whereas they are not, isn't demoralising and degrading to someone's self-esteem? you must not understand women very well.

I think Forrest's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that a woman who was very qualified to work at a strip club might not find it demoralizing at all. I mean, we all have days we'd rather kill ourselves than take a shower and start the day, but it is a lot easier to get up for a job one excels at. It is very validating to do something well.

Basically, a girl who was physically beautiful, comfortable nude, proud of her body, good at dancing, outgoing, good at making small talk with strangers, comfortable with or even excited by physical proximity of other people, capable of maintaining an upbeat attitude, etc. would probably be well-compensated and appreciated at a dancer job. She could totally enjoy it.

Are there emotional/interpersonal pitfalls for girls who dance? Yes, I think there are.

But I think any job someone was poorly suited for would be demoralizing and degrading.

[Tequila Zaire]

ya know maybe if you followed my example then you would have people that were willing to hang around with you and comfort you and you wouldn't have to resort to paying strangers for it.

hahaha...it's not about comfort and friendship. It's not even about company...it's entertainment. I don't go to strip clubs, bars, and similar establishments to find new friends and comfort. It's entertainment first and foremost. Strip clubs are a sexual treat...like candy. It's nothing more than a sugar rush...fun to have every now and then but not the main course.