Do you feel the truth lies between two sides of every story?

[Amelia G]

So I talked to a good friend of mine today. I'd been kind of worried about him and it turns out my spider sense was right because he spent most of last week in business hell because this lying twat was doing her darnedest to screw him on a partnership deal. Apparently this chick talks a good game, so there is concern that some people might buy into what she says. I know my friend is one of the most stand-up people on the planet.

But it seems like people who are honest are often at a disadvantage in such situations.

For example, honest person says the answer is 10 because the answer is 10. Lying twat says the answer is 20 because that is what lying twats do. Many listeners will hear both sides and assume the answer is 15 because that, err, lies between the stories of the two sides.

It seems that people too rarely take character into account when deciding what is true. So they believe a decent honest person who has never been known to misrepresent or fuck over anyone exactly the same as they believe a lying twat who has a history of lying and cheating and reneging on deals she makes.

When did society get to the point where everyone just assumes that everyone else is at least half a liar?

[drewblood]

i'll try to weigh the facts over someone's character when deciding what is true.


can you elaborate more on your 'spider sense'?

[Amelia G]

i'll try to weigh the facts over someone's character when deciding what is true.


can you elaborate more on your 'spider sense'?

I just meant that my spider sense was tingling in the sense that I had a notion something bad was happening to my friend.

How do you determine what the facts are without taking character into account?

[drewblood]

well... in order for me to weigh someone's character in the truth of what they are saying I would need to know something about them.... previous dealings with them, their track-record of honesty. If I didnt know the character of the person, or what the real truth is, then my deciding the truth is going to be kind of uneducated. I guess I would side with the character that sounds most logical and rational and is the most similar to me.

But I dont think by default, that the truth always lies between what 2 different perspectives. Some people are nuts, and just 100% wrong.

[Amelia G]

well... in order for me to weigh someone's character in the truth of what they are saying I would need to know something about them.... previous dealings with them, their track-record of honesty. If I didnt know the character of the person, or what the real truth is, then my deciding the truth is going to be kind of uneducated. I guess I would side with the character that sounds most logical and rational and is the most similar to me.

But I dont think by default, that the truth always lies between what 2 different perspectives. Some people are nuts, and just 100% wrong.

Good points. Which brings up an interesting question. Do you form strong opinions on disputes where you don't have any real knowledge of whether any of the parties have a lot of integrity or a history of hogwash?

[Buster Friendly]

yeah, I don't always assume that 'the truth lies in the middle' because some people are 'lying twats'

Last year I got myself involved with a group of them, like your poor friend's antagonist these people talk a real smooooth line, but there was enough anacedotal evidence, detractors, and straight up actual evidence that was always brushed under the rug that these people were lying scum...

...I figured it out, but figured I could deal with it, and turn the situation to my advantage, just like every other dope that associates with them. Eventually I got burned, just like every other person who they've had a falling out with over the years, and now they talk crap about me, just like every other person they've burned...

which is totally okay because they know better than to confront me to my face. it's just sad because they have a certain amount of 'credibility' just because they have a thriving business built on fucking people over... oh well, god bless america...

[Amelia G]

yeah, I don't always assume that 'the truth lies in the middle' because some people are 'lying twats'

Last year I got myself involved with a group of them, like your poor friend's antagonist these people talk a real smooooth line, but there was enough anacedotal evidence, detractors, and straight up actual evidence that was always brushed under the rug that these people were lying scum...

...I figured it out, but figured I could deal with it, and turn the situation to my advantage, just like every other dope that associates with them. Eventually I got burned, just like every other person who they've had a falling out with over the years, and now they talk crap about me, just like every other person they've burned...

which is totally okay because they know better than to confront me to my face. it's just sad because they have a certain amount of 'credibility' just because they have a thriving business built on fucking people over... oh well, god bless america...

I've been trying to formulate a theory of when to avoid people based on what they say about others. A real red flag for me on who not to trust is people who will talk tons of smack about people who they are still at least nominally friends with. Like, if they are two-faced to their other friend, why should I think they are not that way with me?

I'd like to think that people who do good will be rewarded. I think the biggest reward of striving for decency is being able to feel okay meeting one's own eyes in the mirror. Sometimes I get so frustrated when I see people supporting people (and businesses) who I know they know are liars and bad people, especially when they do it over honest and good people.

[VoldtaEngler]

i have/had this friend that we joke about being a chameleon. Because he always "changes colors". You can say "Hey that was a awesome movie!" and he will agree with you fully...but someone else comes and says "actually i thought that movie really sucked" and he goes "yea..it wasnt that great"
He always does it. We dont understand it. I think its because he doesnt like confrontation. Which is probably why people remain in the "ill take 15" catagory.

[Amelia G]

i have/had this friend that we joke about being a chameleon. Because he always "changes colors". You can say "Hey that was a awesome movie!" and he will agree with you fully...but someone else comes and says "actually i thought that movie really sucked" and he goes "yea..it wasnt that great"
He always does it. We dont understand it. I think its because he doesnt like confrontation. Which is probably why people remain in the "ill take 15" catagory.

See, to me, if I realize that a "friend" is just stroking me and telling me what they think I want to hear and what they say has zilch to do with what they think, I totally write them off. It is not possible to have a real interaction with someone who won't express their true self. Nothing feels worse than waking up one day and realizing you don't know someone you thought was a friend at all because they were lying about what they thought.

Plus, I'm apparently kind of difficult to peg on what I want to hear, so people like that always mess up with me and then they have to defend some goofy opinion they don't even hold.

[VoldtaEngler]

Plus, I'm apparently kind of difficult to peg on what I want to hear, so people like that always mess up with me and then they have to defend some goofy opinion they don't even hold.

Yea i pretty much agree with you there. And no im not saying it to think its what you want to hear

[inox]

When did society get to the point where everyone just assumes that everyone else is at least half a liar?

I don't think, speaking for myself at least, that I assume people are intentionally being deceptive as much as I assume that they are inherently self-interested, and are likely to absorb and process any situation primarily from their perspective.

It's hard for anyone to be completely objective.

[Buster Friendly]

it's interesting, I'll 'tell people what they want to hear' if I'm being a complete bastard... for some reason it feels alot meaner than saying 'go fuck yourself!' ...some people (like shitdayjob employers) simply aren't worth my honest opinion... similarly, people who've fucked me over. why should I give them the benefit of my god like insight into their wretched situation?

it's hard though because I genuinely don't care what most people think, so 'being kind to be cruel' isn't necessarily something I can do easily.

but when people really piss me off, I just hand them the rope they've been fighting me so hard for, to hang themselves with.


in regards of when to avoid people... this group that I was dealing with make a big show about being all 'love, and light, and truth, and beauty, and honesty, and kindness', so that anyone dealing with them for 45 min. or less will be impressed... past that, the poison starts dripping, and foaming... they'll quote, and spew the latest deepak chopraisms, and then turn right around and say some of the nastiest things about folks. it was a fascinating phenomena to witness, and I knew I should have bailed ages before I got burned.

now I find myself caught in a deliema when ever someone asks me about them. do I tell 'my version' of the truth, which can be easily viewed as sour grapes, do I just nod my head, and let people go along with their uniformed enthusiasm, and let them get burned and learn on their own? I usually opt for giving a muted word of caution, and advise folks to look into some of the more verifable issues surrounding this group... and I've been amused at the violent opposition this has met.

it's funny because some of the defenders, and 'enablers' (as I have come to call their allies) know exactly what I'm talking about, why I'm 'right', and yet go along with it, just like in any other dysfunctionally abusive relationship, defending, and making excuses.

ha! I was actually going to post about this in the 'stalkers' section, but one of the really 'delightful' tactics these folks like to use is to label female hangers on that they want to get rid of as 'stalkers', after they've made all sorts of promises, used them and tired of them... (guys they call 'jealous losers')

I mean, it's tough for 'people of good will' to deal with this sort of thing. on one hand, you just want to move on with your life, focus on your goals, and the people you enjoy spending time with. how do you address this sort of thing? especially when any criticism, or questioning is brushed off as 'negativity'...

in all fairness though I should mention that these people acted scared for their lives when they fucked me over, and I really knew better than to be dealing with such 'shining examples of virtue' in the first place.

[Scar]

I have been met with a string of liars lately as well. Not in me professional life, so to speak, but in my personal life. The most amazing thing is that these people not only fabricate a version of their story (that barely has any realtion to what actually happened) but they also get reeeeeally angry when you tell the truth. Like as if you are against them, because you will not sit there and entertain their lies. It has become a real struggle for me to deal with this. I have just started dropping people out of my life who cannot bother to be honest. Now, I realize people do not have to tell me every detail of their lives (and I really don't care to know everything about everyone I know), but when someone goes out of their way to volunteer information that's bull shit, I lose all trust in them, therefor losing all reason to remain friends. Also, if they are always explaining to me the lie they told someone else and why they HAD to tell it, it's a red flag that they are a bullshit artist, and I keep my distance.

As far as what Amelia said, yeah, it SUCKS when a credible person cannot compete with someone who will say anything to get what they want, whether true or not. Especially because if the truth teller speaks up and says something about how the other person is full of crap they sound like an ass hole, therefor shooting themselves in the foot. But I just keep telling myself, all this shit will catch up with people. And so far I have seen that to be true. So just sit back and watch, and enjoy the self destruction of dishonest pricks :-)

[Scar]

And no, I don't think all people are half liars. Most people are 100% one way or the other.

[P I L O T]

personally, I feel for your friend for getting involved in a business relation with someone like that,.. personally I am not one for conflict,.. you want to play games you can do that on your own time and leave me out of it.

If you friend is as honest you say he is again I feel for him but I would not involve himself where there are issues and would wait for my first oppurtunity to see myself out of the situation entirely.

of course it may be alot easier for me to say and do that than it may be for you friend,.. again i feel for him.

[TheDeathKnight]

I agree with most of what people are saying here.

But one of the things I have learned, is that even honest people,
often have a warped perspective of what happened in a situation.
That warped perspective is very simple. They see it from their
side. They are honestly saying that someone screwed them over.
But if you talk to the other person, they will have a totally legitimate
reason for why they did what they did. And so you realize that
personal perspective plays a HUGE role in how people percieve
things.

One thing I see a lot of, is telling only part of the story.
Someone will say that a friend was an asshole to them.
They will describe the mean thing the person did.
But when I talk to the other person, they tell me how
that person was doing something really lame and
annoying, and that they finally snapped, and said
something critical. And if I look at both sides, I realize
that if I were in person #2's shoes, I might have snapped
and said something rude too. So just because a story
is true, there may be another side to it. I find this is
true in many relationships. If you only hear one side,
it will seem like the other person is a horrible liar.
But if you talk to the one doing the lying, and hear
why they were lying, because the other person totally
freaks out when they tell the truth, then you start to
understand why they might choose to lie. But the
accuser never mentions this. They only call the
other person a scumbag liar. They do not mention
that they were jealous, obsessive, or violent, and
that behavior prompted the other person not to
be honest. People say they want honesty, but
if you are harshly honest all the time, people do
not like it. They get upset, angry, and it can end
up destroying a relationship just as well as lying
can. Honesty can be brutal and destructive just
as much as lying can be.

Anyhow, my main point is that it is really important
to get the other person's side of the story, before you
take the side of someone. Often it is a case of personal
perspective tainting the way the event is described...

[Bondage Clown]

I have learned that the truth will stay the same, adn lies are ever changing.. also I have learned that cream rises to the top, while shit flows to the bottom...

I try to get both sides of stories, because I had to when I was growing up...

[Amelia G]

I agree with most of what people are saying here.

But one of the things I have learned, is that even honest people,
often have a warped perspective of what happened in a situation.
That warped perspective is very simple. They see it from their
side. They are honestly saying that someone screwed them over.
But if you talk to the other person, they will have a totally legitimate
reason for why they did what they did. And so you realize that
personal perspective plays a HUGE role in how people percieve
things.

One thing I see a lot of, is telling only part of the story.
Someone will say that a friend was an asshole to them.
They will describe the mean thing the person did.
But when I talk to the other person, they tell me how
that person was doing something really lame and
annoying, and that they finally snapped, and said
something critical. And if I look at both sides, I realize
that if I were in person #2's shoes, I might have snapped
and said something rude too. So just because a story
is true, there may be another side to it. I find this is
true in many relationships. If you only hear one side,
it will seem like the other person is a horrible liar.
But if you talk to the one doing the lying, and hear
why they were lying, because the other person totally
freaks out when they tell the truth, then you start to
understand why they might choose to lie. But the
accuser never mentions this. They only call the
other person a scumbag liar. They do not mention
that they were jealous, obsessive, or violent, and
that behavior prompted the other person not to
be honest. People say they want honesty, but
if you are harshly honest all the time, people do
not like it. They get upset, angry, and it can end
up destroying a relationship just as well as lying
can. Honesty can be brutal and destructive just
as much as lying can be.

Anyhow, my main point is that it is really important
to get the other person's side of the story, before you
take the side of someone. Often it is a case of personal
perspective tainting the way the event is described...

Some people definitely use being honest as an excuse to be sadistic jerks, but I think I still prefer those people to the ones who are always trying to feed each person a different happy lie.

I think that, in a situation like what you just described, both people can be telling the truth. There is a cause and effect issue. But, in a lot of he said she said situations, one person claims something totally fictitious happened and the other person is telling the truth. If one person is committed to telling the truth, they may sound way worse too i.e. if they admit that they said something that might have provoked the other person as in your example.

[Amelia G]

And no, I don't think all people are half liars. Most people are 100% one way or the other.

That seems to be my experience as well. For a long time, for some reason, I didn't want to believe that. Like I wanted to believe that, if I was good to someone, then, even if they had been caught in an untruth before, they were probably still mostly telling the truth and they wouldn't be dishonest with me. (Good thing no one offered to sell me swampland.) But it seems to prove to be the case over and over that people are either going to tell it like it is or they are not and not a lot of in-between.

[Amelia G]

I agree with most of what people are saying here.

But one of the things I have learned, is that even honest people,
often have a warped perspective of what happened in a situation.
That warped perspective is very simple. They see it from their
side. They are honestly saying that someone screwed them over.
But if you talk to the other person, they will have a totally legitimate
reason for why they did what they did. And so you realize that
personal perspective plays a HUGE role in how people percieve
things.

One thing I see a lot of, is telling only part of the story.
Someone will say that a friend was an asshole to them.
They will describe the mean thing the person did.
But when I talk to the other person, they tell me how
that person was doing something really lame and
annoying, and that they finally snapped, and said
something critical. And if I look at both sides, I realize
that if I were in person #2's shoes, I might have snapped
and said something rude too. So just because a story
is true, there may be another side to it. I find this is
true in many relationships. If you only hear one side,
it will seem like the other person is a horrible liar.
But if you talk to the one doing the lying, and hear
why they were lying, because the other person totally
freaks out when they tell the truth, then you start to
understand why they might choose to lie. But the
accuser never mentions this. They only call the
other person a scumbag liar. They do not mention
that they were jealous, obsessive, or violent, and
that behavior prompted the other person not to
be honest. People say they want honesty, but
if you are harshly honest all the time, people do
not like it. They get upset, angry, and it can end
up destroying a relationship just as well as lying
can. Honesty can be brutal and destructive just
as much as lying can be.

Anyhow, my main point is that it is really important
to get the other person's side of the story, before you
take the side of someone. Often it is a case of personal
perspective tainting the way the event is described...

Ya know, thinking about it, I think talking about the bad thing someone else did without mentioning the provocation is still a lie of omission. If I were relating an anecdote about someone else being inappropriate, I would say what I thought I did to set them off. Otherwise such an anecdote makes no sense. Then again, I probably give people more credit for having reasons for their behavior than they really have. I just don't like to think the world is random.

[Evilbink]

See, to me, if I realize that a "friend" is just stroking me and telling me what they think I want to hear and what they say has zilch to do with what they think, I totally write them off. It is not possible to have a real interaction with someone who won't express their true self. Nothing feels worse than waking up one day and realizing you don't know someone you thought was a friend at all because they were lying about what they thought.

You took a page right outta my book on that one. Not many second chances when it come to me and the person who plays that kind of game.