imigration policy

[Bondage Clown]

I say open all borders to all countries

[Mr Karl]

here's a point in fact, I haven't heard anyone on here debate the border policy of the US and canada. In many places there isn't even a fence, people can simply walk accross the border. so why aren't we so up in arms about that?

There ain't a fence we can see but it's there, and that's not even counting the miles and miles of nothingness you got in some places, and for what?

[Morning Glory]

well for one thing whenever immigrants buy anything in the US they are still being charged for sales tax, so the argument that they recieve the benefits of our system without contributing to it is not entirely true. but even so, I'll give you that.

Here's what I propose, if you are a citizen of the US you get charged for federal taxes which go towards social welfare programs. If you are a company that hires illegal immigrants under the table then you should get charged with worker exploitation and tax evasion. If you are a non-citizen, then you don't have to pay federal taxes, and are not entitled to the benefits of government programs. but everyone should still have to pay sales tax and state taxes.

Now there is no longer an incentive for employers to show a preferance and can hire people based on who they think is the best worker. There is no longer an arguement to be made against immigrants exploiting americans. With these conditions it would be easier for an immigrant to become a citizen, as well as allow an american to disvolunteer citzenship if they don't want to pay federal taxes. Now the only argument that can be made against it is one based on ethnicity and as such is pretty racist and goes against the ideals of what america is supposed to be about.

[Morning Glory]

PS. having kids learn spanish is not a bad idea. Most americans were taught english as kids. Most americans that are less then second generation from mexico were taught spanish as kids. deal with it. people should not have to give up thier cultural herritage. this is true for all americans. most europeans speak more then one language, because unlike us, they don't think that they should go out of thier way to not accomidate anyone else.

That being said, since the language of our government is english, if you are in america you should learn to at least speak it passingly. the same goes for anywhere else. English is the primary language of most americans and it should be treated as such... but it doesn't have to be in a way that is disrespectful to everyone else.

[KilLAtomiK]

yeah fuck those canadian icebacks stealing jobs from me that i stole from some white people.if anyone needs their lawn mowed or grapes picked send me a ring but not after 8 PM thats when im getting my teenage girlfriend pregnant .

[inox]

Im all for sending illegals back to their own countries.

Same. I will repost something here that I put in a friend's LJ:

Most of these people who are coming here illegally are not fleeing imminent death...they are looking to make a better life here (and, in a great many cases, send the tax-free money they make back home, where dollars go far.)

Those who are fleeing death or torture have the right to seek asylum, and be granted the legal right to be here.

However, let's be honest: most people come here because it's more economically prosperous.

Bear in mind also that none of these people are falling out of some wormhole in the sky. They all have countries of their own, and it's the responsibility of a government to look after its own people. If a government can't do that, then those people have a responsibility to work to change their government, or otherwise better their situations. Or, you know, seek asylum or otherwise legally immigrate.

I find it ironically humorous that many times, the same people who say that we shouldn't be the World's Policemen, need to get out of Iraq, etc. are also the ones thinking that we should be the World's Nanny, and simply treat like a citizen anyone who just happens to sneak in.

If we don't control the flow of immigration, and simply let the impoverished masses from every disadvantaged country flood our borders, we'll end up a lot like the countries they left...only more smug.

[bohoki]

I say open all borders to all countries

amen brotha but them first


how about this as a compromise

we bill the countries the expenses of unlawfull entrants that they come from

we can take it out of the foreign aid sent to the countries or impose it as import tarrifs

[Morning Glory]

...

While I agree for the most part with your sentiment, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you put it. You say that's the people's job to change their government if they don't like it ... well most Americans don't want the war in Iraq and most of them don't approve of our president, so what are we doing about it? Nothing. In the most free land in the world, we can't do anything to change the government but wait it out. Now imagine a rule like Mugabe's where if someone said about their government what I just did, they would be killed or tortured.

But nonetheless there are some people that do manage to change their government. Usually cuz some asshole is in charge that is sucking up all the countries money and that's just fine with us, as long as we get some. when some of those impoverished masses take power and decide they want to give the money to their people and not trade with NAFTA, then they are on our shit list.

You're right it's all about economics.

But let's take the ostrich syndrome. Say that we are only gonna mind our own business, and keep our nose out of the world. how good is that going to be for us to let Al Queda "work itself out"? The fact is that we have a responsibility to take a part in the world, because it effects us on more then just an economic level. And mostly just because we CAN, we have the ability to do something, and most of us believe that freedom is worth while. But that should extend to more then just dropping bombs on someone because we don't agree with them. So I say again, we do have a responsibility to the world, but as it's brother, not as it's keeper.

[Flip]

disregard my last post, i have not got a leg to stand on based on my views of immigrants in my own country, so i conceed :P

[inox]

While I agree for the most part with your sentiment, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you put it. You say that's the people's job to change their government if they don't like it ... well most Americans don't want the war in Iraq and most of them don't approve of our president, so what are we doing about it?

Most people really don't care all that much. Yes, they think he's an idiot (although many rabidly support him), but it's possible for the vast majority here to go on living happy, peaceful lives. You won't generally see people rising up and taking action until times are hard (read: poverty).

But let's take the ostrich syndrome. Say that we are only gonna mind our own business, and keep our nose out of the world. how good is that going to be for us to let Al Queda "work itself out"? The fact is that we have a responsibility to take a part in the world, because it effects us on more then just an economic level.

Exactly. Being isolationists in 2006 would be short-sighted in the extreme. However, being global in perspective also requires an honest understanding of the dynamics at play.

Wars tend to be fought over (generally religious) ideologies and/or resources, with resources being far and away the prime motivator throughout history.

However, unrestricted (read: illegal) immigration depletes our resources. Eventually, this will lead to squalor (like where many of them came from), or more war to obtain additional resources.

So, unless you want to play Timon of Athens on a national scale...

[BloodredProject2402]

because they arent bothering us and how could we not let the good old Canadians cross (they're so adorable)!

[BloodredProject2402]

hey, got an idea! why not everyone from blueblood get together and those who are battle ready, go down to the good old white house, take control, and do what we want with the border.......ya and then we wouldnt have to worry about people who are just lazy and dont care about what the hell is going on.........at least it would be more productive than what we are doing about the whole situation right now......im not real sure what the point of this reply is......i guess it is that while we are sitting here talking about it (like many other people minus the talking) nothing is being done........does anyone know how to contact the white house?

[hewhoisagod]

Eh, I'm against illegal immigration unless it's as a refugee. Of course building a wall is going to make coyotes and groups like the triad that much more powerful.

On languages though, that's different. The southwest has been speaking spanish for centuries. The US doesn't have an official language. That's up to the states, Arizona has two, so does Texas, New Mexico and California. Louisiana has two too. That's why you have to learn them in school. Of course, historically speaking. The official language of New York would have been Dutch. The Great lakes and Great Plains and would be speaking French. And Russian would be the official language in Alaska.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

does anyone know how to contact the white house?

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

http://www.senate.gov/general/contac...nators_cfm.cfm

Just because we are talking here doesn't mean it is all we are doing.

[BloodredProject2402]

thanks for the links

[Bondage Clown]

Well if anyone remeber the thread that I started about speaking the language... Then you know how I feel..

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I agree with Jax. I live in the UK, and I think quite a few people here feel the same way.
It does seem as if France is sending all the immigrants they have here.
I live in a tower block and it seems to be turning into the United Nations, with me and my wife being one of the few British people here.
My wife works in a call centre,and more than once she has been called a stupid British bitch by someone that barely speaks English, just because she doesn't speak Hindi/Urdo/Kosovan/Rwandan/(The list is endless)
I work for the Government, and every day I see files of immigrants claiming untold benefits. The favourite one at the minute is the "Tax Credit" where the state gives someone that is working money to pay for child care. But some exploit this by owning things like a shop, living above the shop, and the children help out in the shop, not needing child care money.
Another scam to stay in the country seems to be "get a local girl pregnant, claim you want to be with the child, so as soon as your citizenship is granted to you, you grab the child and run to some other part of the country where the mother can't find them!"
The Government's stance seems to be "They're contributing to the Nation." I say they're contributing to the statistic that 1 in 6 British citizens and willing to vote for the BNP (British Nationalist Party) whose policy is to deport anyone that isn't a British national. (That may be a problem for my friend, since he was born here, but his father is Turkish and his mother is Swedish. Needless to say, he can't go to Turkey for his holidays EVER, as he has never done his National Service there.)

[Morning Glory]

sounds like a good plan, it reminds me of a catchy little slogan they used to have here in the 20's:
America for Americans!

[BloodredProject2402]

Mexico for Mexicans!

[Flip]

I agree with Jax. I live in the UK, and I think quite a few people here feel the same way.
It does seem as if France is sending all the immigrants they have here.
I live in a tower block and it seems to be turning into the United Nations, with me and my wife being one of the few British people here.
My wife works in a call centre,and more than once she has been called a stupid British bitch by someone that barely speaks English, just because she doesn't speak Hindi/Urdo/Kosovan/Rwandan/(The list is endless)
I work for the Government, and every day I see files of immigrants claiming untold benefits. The favourite one at the minute is the "Tax Credit" where the state gives someone that is working money to pay for child care. But some exploit this by owning things like a shop, living above the shop, and the children help out in the shop, not needing child care money.
Another scam to stay in the country seems to be "get a local girl pregnant, claim you want to be with the child, so as soon as your citizenship is granted to you, you grab the child and run to some other part of the country where the mother can't find them!"
The Government's stance seems to be "They're contributing to the Nation." I say they're contributing to the statistic that 1 in 6 British citizens and willing to vote for the BNP (British Nationalist Party) whose policy is to deport anyone that isn't a British national. (That may be a problem for my friend, since he was born here, but his father is Turkish and his mother is Swedish. Needless to say, he can't go to Turkey for his holidays EVER, as he has never done his National Service there.)

yup, our countries policy on immigrants is ridiculous.

[Morning Glory]

Mexico for Mexicans!

OK. pop quiz. American History. Which is the formal political lobby that popularized the phrase I cited and you just turned?

[Pull~My~Hair]

OK. pop quiz. American History. Which is the formal political lobby that popularized the phrase I cited and you just turned?

uhhhh...americans?kkk? lol i give

[Morning Glory]

yeah, it was the KKK.

so that's pretty much where we are right now. welcome back to the time of segregation. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at any of the biggoted hypocrisy that comes out of the average american anymore. So instead I propose that we just be honest and while we're on the subject of slogans, let's change some to reflect what we really mean.

for starters:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

hmm. well this won't do at all. there's really no way around this. let's throw out the whole thing. 'America for Americans' sounds better anyway, it doesn't require you to be able to read beyond a first grade level.

allright, here's a good one. the orignal text is just silly, so instead i'll just qoute the newly revised version:

"I have a dream that one day my children will be judged not by the color of thier skin, but by their country of origin."

[World*in*my*Eyes]

My opinion is, it is not so much about the people that come and work with us, here in the USA. I do wish they would learn English. My complaint is more about the jobs we lose to the people still living in the foreign countries. Everyone here should remember, our ancesters all came from foreign countries.

[World*in*my*Eyes]

Well if anyone remeber the thread that I started about speaking the language... Then you know how I feel..

I don't remember your thread, but yes they should learn our language instead of us learning theirs. Most of the people I work with speak only spanish except for the supervisors (they speak both)and a very few others also speak both. They work hard and seem nice, but it is difficult to communicate when them when trying to work together. I only speak English. I am the only English speaking only, there except for the watchman. At least I am allowed to dress and look the way I want here. That matters alot and no drug tests.

[bohoki]

good god noy you are comparing stopping unlawful entry into this country to the actions of the kkk?

we have a fairly easy citizenship program compared to other countrys
is it easier or harder to become a mexican. mexican is not a race neither is guatamalan, honduran,panamanian,japanese,iranian those are nationalists terms not racial terms

america for americans logically speaking is wrong since this whole section of the planet is america north and south

we allow people to become us citizens we just want people to follow our rules if people wont respect our rules then why should we have any respect for them

now we have mexicans wanting to create a country out of a section of the us because mexico is so bad yet i never hear any of them disparage their own country of origin

[BloodredProject2402]

why isnt our government doing anything to change thier government? seriously im open for any suggestions

[bohoki]

because the mexicans here arent saying "mexico sucks" till they all march and complain about mexico how are we supposed to know i like california better than north dakota but that isnt saying north dakota is bad

[Morning Glory]

assuming that someone was really so ignorant as to not know what conditions are like in mexico, I think we can all say that it is the job of the government to be aware of what is going on in thier neighboring countries. to think that people in politics need to have that spelled out for them... well, then we have a hell of a lot more to worry about in this country then undocumented workers.

as for your notion that anyone who doesn't have respect for the laws shouldn't be here... first of all we as a free society should have the right to pass legislation that we see fit as appropraite. we should not have the obligation to accept any rule "just because". that's the defintion of a democracy. If such an absurd notion was passed i'm sure that would require you to be deported my freind, as well as every person I've ever met and millions of americans a day. and that's just people that break the laws, not even counting ones that merely don't respect authority.

[Morning Glory]

why isnt our government doing anything to change thier government? seriously im open for any suggestions

because we have the mentality in our society that "it's not our problem" and therefor we don't have to deal with it. When it does become our problem then we have a particular way of dealing with it. That way is "we are right and everyone should do what we say because we are right." We don't make any effort at all to convince people that we are right, we just make a list of things that people can't do and punish them if they do them. Ultimately, as I pointed it this is the stupidest system in the world for running things. not only does it not stop people from doing something, it's entire basis is the fact that it's trying to stop people from doing something that it knows they are going to do anyway. That's a useless legal system thta accomplishes nothing. what's the point of outlawing something if it doesn't stop it? It's much better to say "Hey, we have to deal with this and accept that it's going to happening, even if we don't like it, so what are we going to do so that we can manage and get by with it?" that is an intelligent way to actually solve a problem.

[bohoki]

how would you like the immagration policy morning glory

open the borders to everyone dont take any names or anything just say come on in do what ya like?

how woudl you set it up if you were king?

[Jax]

I say that if any immigrant wants US citizenship, they should be required to serve 4 years in our military. FIGHT for the country they think is so precious! If they are caught here illegally, fuck deportation, either give them the option of serving in our military for 4 years or go to prison for 4 years and THEN send them back to where they came from, since they were willing to not respect the country they so want to thrive in.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I think every one should do some form of "National Service" even if that service is just pushing files around or helping the community by keeping it clean. No-one should be just given the "Dole" without expecting to give something back.
Immigrants should be expected to learn the main language of the country they want to move to. A lot of people believe this. We have a lot of "radical extremists" preaching hatred toward the West, while living off our taxes. If you don't like where you are, then get the Smeg out and go somewhere else.

[interzone]

I say that if any immigrant wants US citizenship, they should be required to serve 4 years in our military. FIGHT for the country they think is so precious!

fucking great. Lets make an army of bankrupt immigrants and make them fight alongside all the impoverished US. Citizens that already serve in the army .

What’s more, lets pretend that they are doing it to protect the American way of life!

Or better still, why don’t we just disenfranchise all people beneath the poverty line.

[bohoki]

that a good idea jax i think i posted the same thing a while ago

but you said it so much better

[Jax]

fucking great. Lets make an army of bankrupt immigrants and make them fight alongside all the impoverished US. Citizens that already serve in the army .

WhatÕs more, lets pretend that they are doing it to protect the American way of life!

Or better still, why donÕt we just disenfranchise all people beneath the poverty line.

Ahh but see, once in the military they wont be bankrupt or immigrants, and serving four years to fight for a country they think is so great and want into so bad is a reasonable solution.

Are you kidding? They NEED people in our armed services. Obviously not many American CITIZENS are all that interested, otherwise we wouldnt be hurting for new recruits.

If the military recruiting process finds ay reason why they shouldnt serve, deny them citizenship. If they refuse, they obviously arent here for the American way of life they feel is so precious. If they sneak in there are options.

Give them an education in the military. Teach them english and all other subjects to help them become valued citizens.

You are so quick to criticize, but yet you have not provided a better solution. That makes me think you are just one to sit on the sideline, lazily, to do nothing but look down on those who actually want to come up with a solution.

[bohoki]

yea it reminds me of the team america speach on assholes,pussys and dicks


Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!


so using that analogy

so if you dont have any ideas and just criticize others that makes you an asshole

and if you dont want anything done to change anything your a pussy

trying to change anything sometimes fucks things up so that makes you a dick but hey at least they are trying

if any of you pussys are going to be assholes us dicks will fuck the shit out of you


figuratively speaking of course

[Morning Glory]

actually I do agree with required social services for citizens. This not only offers insight into the way things are run and community respect, it's a good way for people to do a variety of things that would benefit them with work experience. I'm not sure that army service is the best thing, and I'll discuss that in a minute, but national guard duty might be a good thing.

once again what im seeing here is princibles over reality. Jax, I find your view of the military to be a little bit, how shall I put it.. idealistic. the reason that the military has such low numbers joining is because most of our armed forces have been in Iraq for the last four years, and the majority of americans think that has fuck all to do with "the american way" and defending this country.

Bohoki, if you are interested in my suggestion for specifics related to a policy of my choosing, it can be found on the first page of this thread. I know that I've posted a lot in this, so it may be hard to find. It's in between posts by Mr.Karl and Killatomic, if that helps.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Man, I got lucky. I don't know what you all had to go through to be citizens here but I just had to be born here. And on top of that I am allowed to hate my country if I want to, and it's rules. If I want to I never have to speak English. I never had to serve in the military or in social service. It's like I won the lottery.

I understand why you guys expect so much from immigrants after all you had to do to be a citizen here.

[interzone]

yea it reminds me of the team america speach on assholes,pussys and dicks


Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!


so using that analogy

so if you dont have any ideas and just criticize others that makes you an asshole

and if you dont want anything done to change anything your a pussy

trying to change anything sometimes fucks things up so that makes you a dick but hey at least they are trying

if any of you pussys are going to be assholes us dicks will fuck the shit out of you


figuratively speaking of course