Shit that Irks Me

[Buster Friendly]

hmmmm. i've typed, and retyped my response 5x now.

fuck this war.

that is all.

....except this:

Toecutter- your friends and family should go AWOL.

[Toe Cutter]

I agree. Tis fucked.

[Toe Cutter]

Toecutter- your friends and family should go AWOL.

Well the thing is they know the war is unjust, and that Bush is a liar and a twat, but the alternatives (AWOL, desertion i.e. Jail) are not really an alternative.

[Buster Friendly]

none of my AWOL friends ever regretted it.

war is dangerous, obviously, but breathing in depleted urianium dust, and being used as medical experiments by a govt. that doesn't even give a enough of a shit about you to give you proper water, and armor... forcing soldiers to buy their own armor is really one of the most vile things that pissed me off early on.

i was dead set against everything going on with this bullshit, but that really fucking appalled me.

rich men want you to die for their wealth. soldiers are no better than fucking wal-mart employees in their eyes.

every one i know who's gone into the military has been fucked over by it. even the most gung-ho pro-sucking-bush-cock assholes i know.

gulf war syndrome ain't no joke either.

like i said, fuck this war.

[Toe Cutter]

I agree with everything you said, the government is screwed-up. My point being it's not as black and white. How many AWOL friends do you have? Did they go AWOL during this conflict, do they have families?

I also think most people with yard sign that say "Support the troops" those are nothing more than a thinly guised pro-bush/war statement. The republicans have perverted that statement to further their agenda. The administration would love to have everyone believe it's as black and white. They would love it if people who were against the war be then by proxie unsupportive of the troops. It would vilify the anti-war movement into a bunch of unpatriotic kooks.

I do think it's possible to be against the war and stand behind the soldiers.
Also, let me point out that I personally find those magnet ribbon things people put on their car with "support the troops" totally lame.

I could be wrong but these are my gut feelings on the subject.

[LoraLie]

I also think most people with yard sign that say "Support the troops" those are nothing more than a thinly guised pro-bush/war statement. The republicans have perverted that statement to further their agenda. The administration would love to have everyone believe it's as black and white. They would love it if people who were against the war be then by proxie unsupportive of the troops. It would vilify the anti-war movement into a bunch of unpatriotic kooks.

I do think it's possible to be against the war and stand behind the soldiers.
Also, let me point out that I personally find those magnet ribbon things people put on their car with "support the troops" totally lame.

I could be wrong but these are my gut feelings on the subject.

look at me. i'm patriotic cause i have a sticker/magnet/braclet/etc.
half the people i know who have them are hick fucktards who dont even really know what is going on. its quite sad.

but yeah, i too do support the troops but this 'war' is quite pathetic in my opinion.
most of my friends who are soldiers, when i asked them why they joined the army i usually get the same reply which is . . . i dont know. or something along those lines. my boyfriend joined because he didnt see a better option for him.
not to go kill people.
my boyfriend & i were talking last night & he said he would never want to kill anyone. ironic that he is infantry. *shrugs*

[Pull~My~Hair]

[QUOTE=LoraLie]look at me. i'm patriotic cause i have a sticker/magnet/braclet/etc. QUOTE]

I have a red one that says support strippers, and a pink one that says support prostitution

[Morning Glory]

Naw. I don't think anyone should protest at anybodies funeral. Let the dead have thier peace, they don't care anyway. Those people are just followers of the philosophy, "there's no such thing as bad publicity". they just do that because they know that it pisses people off and get's them in the spotlight.

I pretty much agree with you toecutter and buster, and that was my point as well: that it's not just black and white. I have a freind that's in the marines and he's in Iraq right now, I can say all the anti-war anti-soldier stuff that I just did, and I don't agree with my freind but I know that the reasons are complex for why he is doing it and they have nothing to do with the governments intrest. But he still is serving those intrests whether he likes it or not by making the choice of joining the military. The very real possibility that he will end up killing someone or dying scares the shit out of me.

I guess what I disagree with the most is the inhumanity of war. While the soliders are the one's out there fighting, there individual perspective is not factored into it, they are forced to follow orders and if they disagree, they will be punished for it. And on a larger level that same rational is expanded, a soldier is a number not a name, and must reamin in anonymity. If you are viewing people as people with families, thoughts, loves and lives that may be closer to yours then you'd care to admit, It would be next to impossible to kill that person, because it would be murder, not just a strategic target. the more war advances, the farther it removes people from thier own actions and experiences.

[Morning Glory]

PS.
the purpose of war is to make profit. even a religious war is fought for land and resources and people to be won over to the "right" side. a war is never fought for survival, people simply need to not fight and they would survive. the reason they are fighting is so one or both can profit. the purpose is not to kill people, but since the notion is that profit is important above all else, even the people on your side that will surely die fighting, it's invevitable that human lives are going to be discarded in that pursuit just as much as buildings, bullets and any other tool of war.

[One Eyed Cat]

If you know something was the case, it kinda strikes me as odd that you would not be open to the possibility that it is the case again now. I have to admit that I have a little trouble getting my head around the logic there. When it was the case in the past, there wasn't exactly a stockpile of evidence laying around in the street. It took years to uncover. But, it seems like all the work it took to uncover that sort of operation was a total waste of time if we don't learn something from it. One of the strongest anti-war voices that has been raised during this current conflict was that of Cindy Sheehan, support her or not, the voice of a mother's rage is a powerful thing. What is the best way to prevent that sort of commitment from being made by other mourning family members of fallen soldiers? Simply make the opposition look like tasteless buffoons during the funeral. We're hardly talking about untravelled ground here. I just think that an objective mind should question people's motivations when a valid political movement is discredited by the buffoonery of certain tasteless 'factions'.

I would need more evidence. I am certain that some of these people are acting of their own volition. It may be that some are not. I refuse to just lay everything unpleasant on the "establishment". I have seen enough to know that has not been the case in many instances here.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

One of my favorite things about Blue Blood has always been the high intelligence level. Whether one attained a high level of schooling or not, it seems to me that such recent history is something intelligent and curious people would know something about. That is why I am shocked to see people who seem like they would be as least passingly familiar with Vietnam War history totally failing to apply that information to the present day situation.

I have to apply the facts as I know them. I don't discount the possibility of a COINTELPRO movement being active, but I have seen instances where people do this of their own volition. The burden of proof is in the positive, so you would have to prove the level of conspiracy. I can't just assume it from the COINTELPRO report.

OEC

[TheDeathKnight]

War is not always about profit.

In a place like Iraq, it has a lot to do with oil, etc...

But in a place like Israel, it's about land and religion.
People who were forced from their homes and land.
Maybe that is what you consider profit. Land.
But it's not particularly wealthy land.
It's just sand.
But it is where these people think they come from,
and where they consider their home. It would be no
different if some country pushed us out of a part of our
country, because they considered parts of the USA their
holy land. Even if the land was useless, we would still
want to go back to our homes, and our land, if we felt
that it was taken away from us...

It would be nice if people could share the sand in the middle east.
But religion and a sense of injustice, is what makes them fight.
They aren't doing it for profit.

In Iraq, perhaps we are.
But not in Palestine and Israel.
That's all about land and religion.

[malcolm]

So there is a group of people who hate homosexuals and soldiers, especially dead ones, (or at least claim to in public) and they protest their funerals?

yeah, it's run by some reverend out of like alabama or something. a few years back, he actually wanted to erect a statue of this kid who was beaten to death by fagbashers in the towns square with some epiteph like "another fag goes to hell" or some shit...oh! and he has a second site that i've come across somehow but cannot remember the url too which is basically god hates america. he's a loud mouthed deuche bag that likes to get the extreme nutjob people from my future political party all rilled up.

[Buster Friendly]

OEC-JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING POGO STICK THE PREZ. OF THIS COUNTRY FUCKING OPENLY ADMITS TO ILLEAGALY WIRE TAPING AMERICAN CITIZENS BECAUSE HE FIGURED NO ONE WOULD FUCKING CARE!!!!!!!!!!

sorry to yell, but how much fucking 'proof' of conspiracy do you want?

fuuuuuuck.

[One Eyed Cat]

OEC-JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING POGO STICK THE PREZ. OF THIS COUNTRY FUCKING OPENLY ADMITS TO ILLEAGALY WIRE TAPING AMERICAN CITIZENS BECAUSE HE FIGURED NO ONE WOULD FUCKING CARE!!!!!!!!!!

sorry to yell, but how much fucking 'proof' of conspiracy do you want?

fuuuuuuck.

None in that instance. The supposition here seems to be: Godhatesfags and a few sundry left wing orgs that protest funerals are automatically tools of the "establishment". I can't accept that at face value.

If the question is: Is government fucking with us, the answer is yes. I could go into a spiel on what certain corporations are doing to movements I care about as well. I refuse to draw conclusions based on the current evidence regarding an element of the antiwar movement.

OEC

[Buster Friendly]

i seriously doubt that Godhatesfags is anything other than sincere in their retardedness.

i could probably make a few calls and find out if there were agent provocatuers in the anti-war funeral protests, although leftists don't always need outside instigation to act like nitwits. self sabotage is a blood sport with that type.

that they are wiretapping, raiding, sabotaging, and otherwise fucking over the anti-war movement is no mere supposition. enviro's as well, who are more likely to be branded terrorists than abortion clinic bombers, or gaybashers.

ugh!

[ForrestBlack]

I refuse to draw conclusions based on the current evidence regarding an element of the antiwar movement.

OEC

But you did draw conclusions. You started this thread based on those conclusions. I think some folks were just pointing out that there is at the very least a possibility that you are being manipulated into those conclusions by less than above board tactics. Any objective analysis should be open to more explanations than the one spoon fed to them. I'm certainly not suggesting you should buy into every wing-nut conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, but seriously, there are more than enough people and organizations in authority positions that are suffering from a bit of a credibility deficit these days.

[One Eyed Cat]

i seriously doubt that Godhatesfags is anything other than sincere in their retardedness.

i could probably make a few calls and find out if there were agent provocatuers in the anti-war funeral protests, although leftists don't always need outside instigation to act like nitwits. self sabotage is a blood sport with that type.

that they are wiretapping, raiding, sabotaging, and otherwise fucking over the anti-war movement is no mere supposition. enviro's as well, who are more likely to be branded terrorists than abortion clinic bombers, or gaybashers.

ugh!

The portion I put in bold print is what I'm seeing at present. I would appreciate *any* information, however. My guess is we'll see elements of left/ghf stupidity with a cointelpro chaser. I know from animal rights that the rest is taking place.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

But you did draw conclusions. You started this thread based on those conclusions. I think some folks were just pointing out that there is at the very least a possibility that you are being manipulated into those conclusions by less than above board tactics. Any objective analysis should be open to more explanations than the one spoon fed to them. I'm certainly not suggesting you should buy into every wing-nut conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, but seriously, there are more than enough people and organizations in authority positions that are suffering from a bit of a credibility deficit these days.

I never specifically stated that the govt had *no* role in this. I can only describe the facts as they stand.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

Naw, I really don't think that the government is trying to subvert the anti-war movement like they did in the 60's and 70's. wait. let me rephrase that. If there was an anti-war movement now, then they would feel the need to subvert it, the way that they did in the 60's and 70's. It was possible to effect change in the system the way that they did it then, so it was a threat to the establishment and must be stopped. they did it in the 90's too.

the anti-war movement is never going to get anywhere if it keeps the armchair-revolutionary pose that it strikes today, which is not only pro establishment, but pro war. I am against the war... BUT I support the troops, I support the people that are fighting the war, and so I support the tactics used by the military in the war, because they are being carried out by the troops, I support the military itself, evenb apart from the troops, because to not do so would be to not support the troops, so basically the only part of the war that Iam really opposed to are the one's that aren't on our side, so I support our side against there side, and in effect I support the war.

[Amelia G]

I never specifically stated that the govt had *no* role in this. I can only describe the facts as they stand.

OEC

Actually you specifically said:

They really believe it.

OEC

I don't think anyone here (please correct me if I am mistaken) is saying that unappealing anti-war groups are definitely seeded with secretly pro-war rabble rousers. I think the general feeling is that sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. There is a historical precedent for having agitators mingle with loonies. So, when faced with people behaving in a way anathema to most people, one needs to be open to the idea that they do not all in fact really believe it. Basically, I don't think anyone is debating you that this is definitely the case, just that your mind should be open to it being possible.

[One Eyed Cat]

Actually you specifically said:



I don't think anyone here (please correct me if I am mistaken) is saying that unappealing anti-war groups are definitely seeded with secretly pro-war rabble rousers. I think the general feeling is that sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. There is a historical precedent for having agitators mingle with loonies. So, when faced with people behaving in a way anathema to most people, one needs to be open to the idea that they do not all in fact really believe it. Basically, I don't think anyone is debating you that this is definitely the case, just that your mind should be open to it being possible.

I'm open to it. When applied to God Hates Fags, it barely passes the laugh test however. Saying a small group of people does believe it does not foreclose the possibility of govt involvement (or at least that was not my intention).

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Naw, I really don't think that the government is trying to subvert the anti-war movement like they did in the 60's and 70's. wait. let me rephrase that. If there was an anti-war movement now, then they would feel the need to subvert it, the way that they did in the 60's and 70's. It was possible to effect change in the system the way that they did it then, so it was a threat to the establishment and must be stopped. they did it in the 90's too.

the anti-war movement is never going to get anywhere if it keeps the armchair-revolutionary pose that it strikes today, which is not only pro establishment, but pro war. I am against the war... BUT I support the troops, I support the people that are fighting the war, and so I support the tactics used by the military in the war, because they are being carried out by the troops, I support the military itself, evenb apart from the troops, because to not do so would be to not support the troops, so basically the only part of the war that Iam really opposed to are the one's that aren't on our side, so I support our side against there side, and in effect I support the war.

I understand your argument vis a vis supporting the troops. I guess, on some level, a lot of us are becoming resigned to war (which may be wrong).In terms of movements, I think the media focus is often a driving factor in creating public perception. They tend to concentrate on the extreme cases. If the govt is also involved, that is ultimately a recipe for disaster. They will get caught sooner or later.

OEC

[malcolm]

honestly, the guys dying over in the middle east should be respected and their funerals shoudlnt be protested. they are soldiers, marines, airman and fellow sailors doing thier job. they didnt get a choice when they got stationed over there and they were doing what they are supposed to do. they died in line of combat and that should be admired if not atleast respected in the fact that most of these people arent even old enough to buy beer and yet they had the balls to go over there and do something
(wether one sees it as right or wrong why we're there.)
and wether the government has anyhting to do with the protests.....honestly, i dont think they would and if they do-thats just sad.
the whole thing behind god hates fags and god hates america is they are like the klan, they go to rallies and protests or do their own rallies and protests just to piss people off and get em to fight them or each other and then they soak up the publicity-in the words of james saint james, "no publicity is bad publicity."

but those who have died in the middle east, I have the greatest deal of respect for and am proud of. may they rest in peace.