Alternative Parenting

[DeviantMommy]

Ok,was talking about opening up a thread on this once before so here it is.
Basically I just wanna hear from other BB parents about how they feel their parenting is (or isn't) effected by thier "alternative lifestyles",ie:looking and living outside of the norm.

Personally,I feel my husband and I have 2 strikes against us as far as fitting in w/ other "mainstream" mums and dads. Firstly,our outward appearance,the way we dress,our tats and piercings etc.,and second the fact that we are for the most part atheists..(my husband follows the teachings of Anton LeVey,and myself more along the lines of the Tao te Ching..what a pair,I know)..but neither of us believe in the xtian god and feel very strongly about people trying to expose our daughter to the xtian faith.

It does make things difficult sometimes..I hardly ever feel comfortable among other parents,I get alot of dirty looks and talking behind my back. I'm used to that,but I'm also worried that when Petra is old enough to go to school,she may be treated differently because of her "weirdo" parents. In fact I'm sure it's inevitable.

Anyhow,these are just some of the things that I think about from time to time now,I wondered if anyone else feels the same. Do you think "alt. lifestyle" parents should tone down their appearance for the sake of their children,or be more accepting of xtian concepts like xmas/easter etc. so the child won't feel excluded during these times? I feel like it's the worst kind of conformity personally and I want to show my daughter that she should be brave and be herself reguardless of what others think.

That's my opinion,I look forward very much to any feedback.
Btw,this would also be a great place to post baby pictures,I'm dieing to see everyone's cute little spawn.

[DeviantMommy]

Here's a few of my favorites of Petra Mae..

Squee! This is my favorite,check out that tongue!

Petra and carrots

Petra and Daddy

So innocent,right? lol

[tatum radcliffe]

I don't have children of my own at the moment (fingers crossed on that one..) but I have to say, I don't see anything at all wrong with the way you are choosing to raise your child. Ultimately, you are the mommy and the opinions of others are just that. As long as the kid grows up knowing she's loved and is raised in an environment of acceptance, I don't see a problem.

When I have kids, I plan on raising my little monsters in a similiar "do as you will" pattern. Hell, I'm already sewing little black clothes (although mygothicbaby.com is excellent). My boyfriend and I rock the whole vamp scene and tend to forget that we have our fangs in. I can't imagine having to "tone down" who I am. I got out of the education field when one of my professors suggested that my appearance might be detrimental to the kids. Personally I'm just waiting for the day that we have to go to a parent teacher conference because of something little Vladia or Attilla has done.

And yes, unfortunately she may get some grief over her parents being different, but with friends it should be okay. Just give her the tools to respond to it. Try making friends with other parents in the community and have play dates.

Like I said, I don't have kids, so I can only go on hypotheticals and on the actions of parents that I liked and those that I didn't. I think it shows that you are a good mom for worrying about it. Take care!

P.S. does the pic of my cat count as a pic of kids?

[tatum radcliffe]

Here's a few of my favorites of Petra Mae..

Squee! This is my favorite,check out that tongue!

Petra and carrots

Petra and Daddy

So innocent,right? lol

she is too freaking cute!

[mmmcherry]

my god the cuteness...
yeah i get funny looks sometimes from people when i go out in just my jeans and a hoodie with my kid... i guess if ive got my backpack on i look young enough to be a highschool student... im freakin 23 okay haha!! but yeah i guess thats not really alternative...
i used to wear my crazy raver style pants all the time with extra fabric sewn into the sides to make them super extra flarey... i love those pants. my favorite pair right now though has a huuuge hole in the crotch so i cant wear em hahaa...

mah baby pics: go to photobucket,com and the username is mmmcherry, password is tattoogurl, and the baby photo album is called limabean. theres tons in there, and even a couple really cute videos, altho theyre really dark

[Morning Glory]

Thank you for not breeding.

...nothing personal, just a general thought.

you wanna leave your mark on the world
by bringing another boy or girl
into this terrible fucking place
i think its selfishly derate
and you're too arrogant to see
all the reasons why you shouldn't breed
we have people starving on the streets
but you want to make another mouth to feed
a million kids that already need a home
but you say you've got to have one of your own
its your attempt at immortallity
i think its pure stupidity

[DeviantMommy]

Morning Glory,you are so entitled to your opinion. I probably would have been right there w/ you before I had a baby of my own. I never wanted children,Petra was very unexpected. Carelessness on my part totally,I accept complete responsability for that. But I couldn't bring myself to destroy her,I just don't have that in me. Now that she's here,I'm so glad that was never an option for me,she is one of the greatest joys in my life. Also,I am of the opinion that you will never stop people from breeding,there is a baby born every minute,and yes it's usually the undereducated,lower class people that have the most children. People w/ higher I.Q.'s usually feel the same way you do,and hence opt not to breed at all. So what is this doing to the gene pool? Intelligence and open-mindedness is slowly but surely being phased out. I think people should need a licence to breed,have to pass an I.Q. test,child care classes etc. Because if people stop breeding altogether,the human race will just peter out and die,so people have to breed,it should be controled,not illiminated altogether. Maybe if the majority of parents weren't ignorant,white-trash,redneck christians and knew when to stop breeding,after one child (just my opinion),then there would be fewer unwanted children,and the children that were born would be higher quality people who go on to be better assets to society as a whole.

[Exquisite]

Personally I would say just raise your kids to know that they are number one in your life and you should be ok. What you look like doesn't matter. My parents weren't christian but Canada can be a bit more open minded than other places in the world.

Being pagan myself I understand your reluctance to participate in easter or any other christian holidays however, if you explain the reasoning behind the festivals it can become an interesting history lesson. And lets be honest most young kids think of christmas as being Santa's Birthday and I have even heard Santa referred to as Jesus' brother.

The only important thing is to love and cherish your kids, everything else is secondary. I also feel the same way you do, distribute as many smart ass independent thinking spawn out there as possible.

[Velvet-Tongue]

I used to want kids because of my faith. Once I lost my faith, the desire to have a kid was lessend. The whole Idea of being remembered, of passing on your dna etc used to seem valid to me. Then I realized its just not important. There are a million other Thomas's out there, a million other people with my interests and beliefs, and to bring another human being into this world seems cruel to the child. I just don't want a part in it anymore. Plus, why would I wnat to put my wife through that kinda trauma/pain. Plus with what Deviantmommy just said about the genepool etc, just another reason to not bring a child up into this world. It sounds arrogant or whatever..but why would I want my offpsring to have to suffer hrough life, yeah it has its good parts but by not creating offspring I don't have to put my child or me through anything.

just my opinion.

[Gabriel]

@MorningGlory:
Well I'm absolutely loving life and would not at all have a problem sharing all my joy with a baby. I personally feel that welfare (trying to feed all those who are starving) is a wasted effort because people in general are greed driven and communism takes an entire population dedicated to the good of everyone else. Impossible within human nature. However, if you were suggesting that people who would like to raise a child adopt one of those who've already been abandoned before considering birthing their own... I would support that idea completely.

@DeviantMommy:
Having been born into a Christian home, I can guarantee you that the religion mommy and daddy try to shelter you from is a beacon for curiosity. I haven't really considered it before now, but I might lend some thought to introducing them to Christianity early and letting the child know exactly how you feel about it. Children worship their parents and want to be just like them. If mom and dad are quiet on a topic (this religion that 60% of his/her classmates proclaim) it's confusing, if the child knows mom and dad believe differently and don't feel the need to argue with others about their beliefs, it is likely to give the child some ground in which to plant an anchor.
As far as getting picked on at school for deviant parents? Only until Jr. High, then the kids got the coolest parents ever, and all the other kids wish THEIR parents were like Petra's mom, and not only LET her buy that new album, but freaking took her to the concert and got into the mosh pit with her.
It's different from a parent who ignores their kid until he / she is 13 and starts to act out, THEN tries to be the kids friend, those kids are embarrassed of their parents. Parents who are cool to start with though have a good chance on only being a source of embarrassment on every other Tuesday or whatnot.

Good luck with the baby. Old addage says it takes a village to raise a child. We don't really have "villages" anymore, but perhaps now a subculture will work instead.

[HeadlessBill]

Having worked at a toy store for over 9 years (not Toys R Us), I saw a whole bunch of parents with their kids of different lifestyles and cultures and countries come into the store and watched them interact with their kids. In all honesty, I felt that it was usually the goth, punker, skate rat parents that tended to actually play with their kids and interact with them, while the other parents tended to just sit back and watch their kids play.

As for the whole Christianity thing, I wouldn't hide it from your daughter. When the time comes when she feels she needs to adopt a religion allow her to make her own unbiased choice. I'm sure you and your husband didn't pick which religions you wanted to follow without a bit of research first.

I do agree with Gabriel's opinion about how your child may be recieved by others kids. Just raise your child to be accepting of anyone regardless of who they are and they'll be fine.

As a side note, I remember one little boy coming into the store wearing a long sleeve t-shirt covered with tattoo designs. As I was talking to the dad, and saw the tattoos on his lower arms and I realized that the tattoos on the boys t-shirt matched his dads tattoos. I thought that was really cool.

Then there was the goth couple that had their daughter all dressed in clothes that had Strawberry Shortcake emblazoned on them.

[CorporateGoth]

As for the whole Christianity thing, I wouldn't hide it from your daughter. When the time comes when she feels she needs to adopt a religion allow her to make her own unbiased choice. I'm sure you and your husband didn't pick which religions you wanted to follow without a bit of research first.

Well said....My wife and I live near the buckle of the bible belt, yet neither one of us is xtian. We dont raise our kids to believe one way or the other, but try to instill a sense of curiousity about all faiths. We just feel it isnt our decision to make for them.
To face the facts...this is a overwhelmingly Xtian society, so "hiding" it is kind of impossible. We have even allowed 2 of our kids to go with thier friends to various "Sunday Schools" because they asked to go...they were curious. Once we were fairly sure these werent, how shall I say this,....Radical Fundamentalist type churches (?) we figured it would be good for them to be exposed to it. Note that I say exposed and not forced (their choice). They came home with some interesting questions. The basic pillars of Xtianity arent the problem, its how so many of the followers misrepresent them that causes the problem.
The cool thing is that we found that our kids were able to see through the B.S. that has driven us away from it in the first place. "But I thought god wanted us to be nice to each other...they arent always nice, arent they listening?".
I also think its important to include all faiths in their education. They will run into Jews, Muslims, Athiests, 7th Day Adventists, Snake Handlers, Druids, etc. They will be exposed to religions of all kinds and I think its best that they have some kind of understanding of what they are about before someoneelse tells them what to believe.
Whatever you choose, it sounds like you are active parents and have the best interests for your child(ren ?) at heart. You'll do fine.

[Morning Glory]

you're right DM. what we really need above all else is good parents. unfortunetly, I think that is something that is few and far between since everyone I know has had pretty fucked up lives, I can't really trust anyone to be. not that that makes them bad people, I consider myself a pretty caring person and I try to do my best, believe it or not, but even I doubt my abilty to raise kids that don't turn out screwed up. My own mom and dad are good people, but they sucked at being parents. it's not thier fault, that's just how it goes. If you don't have any experience with it, then you can't do a good job at it.

[Jebadiah]

This'll be short I'm on the run.
One of the strangest things for us, being alt. parents, is that are son (who we adopted when he was eight and is nearly eighteen now) gets away with nothing. Both my wife and I pretty much did what we wanted since we were thirteen, but our poor son is sheltered. I believe this is due to the fact that my wife is basically a stayhome mom and because of the experiance we recieved from our raunchy lives.
I've actually had a discussion with him about how he needs to get better at hiding stuff and keeping secrets.
But it won't help we know way to many tricks of the trade.

[Mr Karl]

her blanket has bears on it, that could mean therapy one day

[WickedFaire2007]

Do you think "alt. lifestyle" parents should tone down their appearance for the sake of their children,or be more accepting of xtian concepts like xmas/easter etc. so the child won't feel excluded during these times?:

Absolutely not! I don't think anyone should have to change who they are or what they believe for the sake of their children. And, even moreso, I don't think anyone should have to appear to be or pretend to be something they're not for the sake of other people's opinions and interactions with their children.

As for being more accepting of Christmas and Easter and such... it depends on what you mean. I think everyone should be "accepting" of and tolerant of other people's religious beliefs, even if they're not their own. So, yes, I think you should be accepting of other people's beliefs.

But, should you embrace traditions that aren't yours so your child will feel more excepted? No. You should teach your child to be proud of their family and their background and their beliefs. And...if it gets really bad and your child feels like "the only one who doesn't celebrate such-and-such"? Go out for Chinese food with all the Jews on X-mas and show them that LOTS of people have LOTS of different beliefs, and that they're not alone.

[TheDeathKnight]

Well, my parents were hippies, and they knew that they did not fit in with all the other christian, conservative parents. They had their own set of friends, so I could play with other kids who had hippie parents, so those kids would not tease me because of my parents or me being different. So it works fine if you stay in your own little world. That is easier in a big city, than it is in the midwest or something... But I think you have to be honest with kids, as my parents were with me, and explain that not everyone is like you, and they do other things. I remember asking my mom what church was all about, because other kids went to church on Sunday. So she said if I wanted to go, I could go check it out. So I went. Once was enough. Boring! But it wasn't like she said I had to only go to wican stuff, or could not try to fit in if I wanted to. It was up to me.

One word of warning though...

One of my friends has a daughter that is about 17.
Her mom is very liberal, alternative, etc.
She raised her kid to be open-minded, etc...
So when her daughter got to her rebellious teenage years,
guess what she said?
"Why can't you be *normal* like the other moms?"
She wanted her mom to dress normal, look normal, and fit in.
So it seems like kids want to fit in, no matter how you raise them.
Even though some kids would have thought her mom was cool,
the kids she was hanging out with all had "normal" parents.

My mom once apologized for all the teasing and hardship I had to go through as a kid. She said she felt responsible, because she knew she had the choice to raise me "normal" or the way she thought was right. I told her that even though kids are assholes, and it was hard, I would not trade it for anything. Being who I am, and how I was raised, and the things I went through, make me the person I am today, and I like who I am. So do what is in your heart, and your kids will respect you for it, and thank you one day for being cool, and not uptight, etc...

[Kat]

If you tone yourself down to fit in more with other parents, is that not sending a message to your child to not be themselves, or be proud of their family/beliefs/background?

As for holidays, they can teach children about various different beliefs, not just Christian ones, although they are probably the most common ones your children will encounter. As Gabriel said, if you try to shelter them from a particular belief, they'll be more and more curious about it. Use it as a tool to educate them about diversity.

As they get older, if they have Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc friends, there's probably little harm in letting them tag along to services or holiday events if they're curious. They'll make up their own mind about what they want, and acting like its not a big issue will probably make them less likely to rebel and join a religion you'd prefer they not join.

[Morning Glory]

you should homeschool your kids. think about it, spending 8 hours a day with other kids and adults telling them what to think will ensure that they are pressured to be "normal" and since they will want to go with what they know at home, they'll feel rejected at school. but ugh, you should actually teach your kids things. too many parents just don't do anything in homeschool and then their kids just turn out to be stupid.

[dirty_lil_bitch]

i think you should stay the way you are because you dont want to teach your kid to be fake, its better to be yourself around your kids because they look up to u.

[DeviantMommy]

Wow,wasn't expecting so many responses,I'm pleasantly surprised.
Like I previously stated though,I don't advocate conformity simply because someone becomes a parent,like I said,I think this is the worst kind of conformity. I definetly believe in teaching your kids to stand up and be whoever it is they are,reguardless of what anyone may say or think. And as far as xtian beliefs and traditions go,I do plan to let Petra make up her own mind. I do think sheltering children from certain ideas or lifestyles leads to curiousity and ultimately rebellion. I want her to always know we have faith enough in her intelligence to make her own choices. My husband Steve and I were raised in xtian households and came to our own conclusions eventually,given the understanding we took away from our upbringing. So I think it's a given that Petra should be exposed to xtianity as well as all other religion throughout the course of her life so she can find the way that suits her on her own,but be able to make an educated decision instead of just doing as we do w/out question. We will always encourage her to question anything told or given to her. I think more parents should encourage indepent thinking. Not to say that we have all the answers,this is just the way we feel is the best for us.

[Scar]

I have no kids but my brother and sister are 11 and 13 years younger than me. I have often gone to their school functions to help out, such as doing face paint for the haunted house. Also, I am usually the sitter when my little sis has slumber party birthdays. The girls all think I am weird. Their parents are nice enough to me cause they know they have to be, since they are in my moms house. I also don't wear make-up most the time or get super dressed up, but of course it's obvious what 'kind of person' I am. Now that my sisters friends got to know me they like me but it took them a while to warm up. The still call me weird and once all chased me and tackled me and stole my socks. I think personally you are doing all the yuppy moms a favor and opening their kids minds. If they are not exposed to different kinds ofstuff they will end up with a narrow view of the world.

[Buster Friendly]

i became a satanist in the 3rd grade because after two years of patiently explaining to the exact same kids every day about my atheism, and then another year of just beating the same kids up after they said the same exact things from previous years it was just easier.

Godhumper:If you don't believe in god you believe in the devil"
Me:bullshit, your devil is just the opposite of a god i don't believe in.
Godhumper:"if you don't go to church you must be a devil worshiper"
Me:"shut the fuck up, or i'll give you another bloody nose"
Godhumper:"if you don't believe in god you believe in the devil"
Me:"i mean it, remember when i cracked your skull against the cement on the playground last year?"
Godhumper"you're a devil worshiper, if you don't believe in god, you believe in the devil"
Me:"fine, i worship the devil. i'm a devil worshiping satanist, now fuck off."
Godhumper:"awww, i'm telling you said a bad word, you devil worshiper."

aaaaand so on, about like that...

fuck almighty was i pissed when i finally read lavey's books... not even that douchebag believed in the devil... fucking objectivists.

i just drove through the rural midwest today, like 5 fucking christian stations in one area... i'd almost gotten over my intense dislike for the religion, and here these dweebs had to go and remind me of why i think they should all be shipped back to jesusland...

raise your kids however you want... just make sure they can fight.

[Gabriel]

you should homeschool your kids. think about it, spending 8 hours a day with other kids and adults telling them what to think will ensure that they are pressured to be "normal" and since they will want to go with what they know at home, they'll feel rejected at school. but ugh, you should actually teach your kids things. too many parents just don't do anything in homeschool and then their kids just turn out to be stupid.

Homeschooling was great academically, but didn't prepare me to deal with the outside world. I was very socially inept when I finally made it out of the house and into the world. I would not say homeschooling is bad, but I think it needs to be supplemented by other social gatherings where children will be exposed to people who believe differently than mommy and daddy, especially while still at an age where they will question mom and dad about it. Contrasting other people against your parents is a huge part of childhood development, and if kids only see people who are like their parents it can be a system shock you aren't ready to deal with when you finally do see them and your parents are no longer right there.

[DeviantMommy]

Homeschooling was great academically, but didn't prepare me to deal with the outside world. I was very socially inept when I finally made it out of the house and into the world. I would not say homeschooling is bad, but I think it needs to be supplemented by other social gatherings where children will be exposed to people who believe differently than mommy and daddy, especially while still at an age where they will question mom and dad about it. Contrasting other people against your parents is a huge part of childhood development, and if kids only see people who are like their parents it can be a system shock you aren't ready to deal with when you finally do see them and your parents are no longer right there.

I agree Gabriel,I think it's important to expose your kids to the outside world. I have seen kids who went through the early part of their lives sheltered,and wow..what a psychiatrists dream! Also,it teaches tolerance,which is very important,especially to people of "alternative lifestyles",you can't ask someone to give you what you can't give yourself,right?

I think personally you are doing all the yuppy moms a favor and opening their kids minds. If they are not exposed to different kinds ofstuff they will end up with a narrow view of the world.

Agreed. Also,and I got this idea from my best friend Jon,who is probably the greatest dad I know,w/ full sleeves and an 8g in his septum..I think it's good for punker/goth/etc. parents to be really active in programs like the PTA,and present at kids soccer games and whatnot,being ourselves..most of us are very intelligent,tolerant,and just generally nice people if you get to know us instead of making flash judgements..(atleast from my expieriance,of course there's always a few bad apples..)..maybe if more "yuppy parents" see us being responsible, social, caring parents...they'll start to change thier view of our subculture being just a motley crew of drug addicts and whores..or atleast it will be a step in the right direction.

[TheDeathKnight]

I got this idea from my best friend Jon,who is probably the greatest dad I know,w/ full sleeves and an 8g in his septum..I think it's good for punker/goth/etc. parents to be really active in programs like the PTA,and present at kids soccer games and whatnot,being ourselves..most of us are very intelligent,tolerant,and just generally nice people if you get to know us instead of making flash judgements..(atleast from my expieriance,of course there's always a few bad apples..)..maybe if more "yuppy parents" see us being responsible, social, caring parents...they'll start to change thier view of our subculture being just a motley crew of drug addicts and whores..or atleast it will be a step in the right direction.

I agree with that 100%.
It's easy to just be angry with the mainstream, and hate them.
But if you act nice, and cool, and are successful, and tolerant, and friendly, you will change the minds of tons of people. By being weird, tattooed, etc, but still being a good person, it teaches those judgemental people, that their impressions may be wrong. Just because some people who look like us are drug addicts, or criminals, does not mean we all are. So don't assume things based on appearances. So the more you can be out in the world, meeting "normal" people, the more it will change their ideas about the subculture.

[Buster Friendly]

the only problem with being nice, cool, tolerant, and friendly with people is that folks take that for granted and then won't leave you the fuck alone.

[Janiac02]

Things will inevitably change when you have a child, as I'm sure you've already noticed. If you've gone through all of THOSE changes already, I see no reason to change your lifestyle, as long as you aren't in any way trying to convince your child that there is no other right way. It doesn't seem like that's your goal in life, so I'm sure all will be well.
Everyone has to deal with crap from their peers at some point. That's inevitable, and nothing you change about yourselves will make that stop. I think it's wonderful that you have at least considered your child's future welfare this early on.

[Morning Glory]

I disagree about the social interaction. think about all the problems that kids have... shit, think about all the problems that adults have. it's because people are constantly pressured to feel like they have to coform to the herd because they are conditioned that they have to be accepted by society. even "alternative" people still give a shit about what everyone else thinks and seeks thier approval. when I was a kids in school I was really socially awkward because I realized at a young age to do what I thought and not just go along with everyone else, so everyone hated me because I wasn't like them and I didn't buy into thier authortiive heirarchy that means they get to use me and I am supposed to be grearful for the privaledge. the only time that people were ever nice to me was when the shool shootings started happening and people were sacred that if they kept calling me a fag and pushing me around then I'd pop a cap. Kids don't need that.

I don't think you seem to know what acceptance means. it doesn't mean changing the way that you are so that you are more like mainstream people so that they will no longer misunderstand you. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be nice to people. but it's not your fault that people think you're a scumbag because you wear black. sure it's easy to be bitter about people that are assholes. it's much easier to be one of those assholes that's dishing it out. fuck em.

sorry for the blunt hostility, I know it seems like I'm just venting. but really I've just to the point in my life where I feel comfortable enough with who I am that I don't care or need to convince other people. and I really don't worry about if I offended people that I think are peices of shit. they should be offended by thier own actions, and it's not my fault or responsibility. they have the option of acting like decent human beings and being treated accordingly. I'm not the one that's going out of my way to disrupt.

[DeviantMommy]

I disagree about the social interaction. think about all the problems that kids have... shit, think about all the problems that adults have. it's because people are constantly pressured to feel like they have to coform to the herd because they are conditioned that they have to be accepted by society. even "alternative" people still give a shit about what everyone else thinks and seeks thier approval. when I was a kids in school I was really socially awkward because I realized at a young age to do what I thought and not just go along with everyone else, so everyone hated me because I wasn't like them and I didn't buy into thier authortiive heirarchy that means they get to use me and I am supposed to be grearful for the privaledge. the only time that people were ever nice to me was when the shool shootings started happening and people were sacred that if they kept calling me a fag and pushing me around then I'd pop a cap. Kids don't need that.

I don't think you seem to know what acceptance means. it doesn't mean changing the way that you are so that you are more like mainstream people so that they will no longer misunderstand you. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be nice to people. but it's not your fault that people think you're a scumbag because you wear black. sure it's easy to be bitter about people that are assholes. it's much easier to be one of those assholes that's dishing it out. fuck em.

sorry for the blunt hostility, I know it seems like I'm just venting. but really I've just to the point in my life where I feel comfortable enough with who I am that I don't care or need to convince other people. and I really don't worry about if I offended people that I think are peices of shit. they should be offended by thier own actions, and it's not my fault or responsibility. they have the option of acting like decent human beings and being treated accordingly. I'm not the one that's going out of my way to disrupt.

Ok,first of all I don't think it's cornformist to be involved w/ your child's school. When I said I think more of us goth/punker type parents should join the PTA and go to kids' soccer games,I didn't mean we should all go buy some cardigans to wrap around our shoulders and hop into our minivans and vote republican.

I personally would feel better having an inside look at what's going on at this institution where my little girl will be spending 6-8 hrs almost everyday for the majority of her young life. If they're talking about uniforms, or kids being reprimanded for not standing for the national anthem, or manditory prayer in school,I want to know about it first hand,and you'd better be damned sure I will make my voice heard too.

Secondly,like I said before,how can we expect people to be tolerant of us when we won't even try to be tolerant of them? And what kind of message is that sending to our children? Yes,I think respect is something to be earned. But I also feel the same about disrespect. Everyone deserves a chance. Just because some "mainstream" kids made fun of you in elementary school doesn't mean that for the rest of your days everyone who isn't just like you is going to judge and mistreat you.

Of course there will be people who do. But that shouldn't discourage you from speaking your mind,wearing what you like,voting for the candidate you feel is sincere,or joining the effing PTA if you want to! Just because you live an "alternative lifestyle" doesn't mean you have to be anti-social and generally unfriendly/unpleasant. People are expecting that,surprise them! Don't box yourself into the universal stereotype that we're all moody,suicidal,satan worshipers.

[RAGE]

I dont yet have kids. (well, human anyways, my animals are my kids. And I have a god-daughter.)

But I do have very firm beliefs in child-rearing.

1. Religion:
I'm not Christian. I'm a Germanic Traditionalist and very secure in my beliefs.
My fiance is Christian Methodist and very secure in his.
As such, neither of us has issues discussing, learning about or having exposure to other religions or participating in their ceremonies, celebrations or holidays.
Hell, I occassionaly go to church (baptist with my family, methodist with him), participate in church functions and happen to like damn near all holidays. Good experiances no child should be denied out of insecurities or prejudices of the parents.
I would have NO problem what so ever if my kid were exposed to Christianity. So long as my child knew that his/her faith was her path and dicision to make (so long as it isnt Fluff-truff new age bastardized humbary. Unless of course it was specifically chosen in a speghetti monster / discordian fashion.)

I believe exposure to as many religions, including Christian sects, as possible is healthy for a child's spiritual developement. I'm also against placing my religion on my child's shoulders. If thats their way, they'll initiate a search for it on their own.

2. Appearence:

While I'm definately pro-body mod... I'm also pro-rationality. My child will not get a tattoo until s/he has proved to me the desired piece is more than a passing fancy. That it was drawn and revised until perfection where it has gone a year without alteration. And has substantial meaning.

My kid will have no piercings until they've shown me they are responsible enough with their hygeine and health as to keep up with proper after-care.

3. Manners:

So many parents are fucking failures in this department.
My kid will learn proper ettiquette. They will learn "please", "Thank you", "yes/no ma'am/sir". They will chew with their mouth closed and not talk with food in their mouth. If its a boy, he will learn respect, manners and how to sweep a girl off her feet without being an obnoxious, pretentious snot. And if its a girl, she'll learn that no matter how bad ass or cool she thinks she is, she is still a lady with standards, morals and ethics.

4. Education:

They WILL learn. They WILL advance. They WILL graduate.
I'm sick of all the shitty education kids are getting. And its not just the schools at fault. The kid and parents are to boot.


Other than that. Loads of travels, exposure to different cultures and places, new things and the pursuit of what they feel drawn too.

[RAGE]

In regards to PTA and social exposure.

I'd agree with that. Parents should be active and attentive to every aspect of their childs life.

Attending PTA gives parents a part of and heads up in what happens with their child's school. It helps them stay familiar with their teachers and any problems the child might have both at school and at home. It gives parents an idea where they might need to be more supportive or helpful to their child.

School sports and social activities are great for the kid to be a well rounded individual. These should be selected on the child's preference though... Not the parents. (My mother continually tried to get me into Cheerleading. No desire, so it went no where. I continually tried to get into soccer. No such luck. I did end up being on Step Team for three and half years though.) I did, however, make good friends from intermingly with the various extra-curricular teams. Including the Varsity Cheer-leading captain. How very conformist of me *gasp*! Or is that naughty of her?

It also presents a more respectable image than the "School/society/normal people/conformists are so uncool yo!" image that many often give ME. I dress this way because I like it, its appeals to my aesthetics, and so many, many reasons. I live this life-style because it suites me. Its not to rebel. Its not to go against the norm. Its not to be non-conformist. Its just to go with who I am and what suites me personally. And attending PTA and socializing my potential future offspring is not going to ruin my image.

My fiance is a metro-sexual, clean cut Korean man. No piercings, no Tatts, no unusual hair-style. Just laid back, khakis and buttun ups. And hot as shit to boot.

[Morning Glory]

believe it or not, I actually agree with most of the stuff you said RAGE.

the difference is that the way I live my life is not just fasion, I actually do consider myself to be a rebel, a non-comformist, and all around hater. (kidding on that last bit.) I guess you could say that that's an egotistical, or immature, or just full of shit thing to say, but that's how I feel.

my point about school and social conventions wasn't that the parents shouldn't be involved with it for the sake of thier kids... but that the kids shouldn't neccesarily be involved with it for the sake of thier parents. I really don't believe that being a cheerleader does anything to prepare you for life other than to learn to get ahead by acting and practicing that you are better than everybody else and the comforts that go along with it. It's not that I'm bitter about the whole thing, I don't care, most of the people that treated me like shit are in no different position than I am right now, or even worseoff. and that's the point. I don't think that school realistically prepares people to deal with life and have relationships with people, all it teaches is how to follow orders to mimic the social roles in the workplace that you observed among your peers, that are often shallow and manipulative to go along (or maybe to mask) the fact that no one has any idea what they are doing.

I'll be honest, I'm not really a big fan of society as a whole. I really don't think that it has accomplished anything worthwhile and valuable that I want to pass on to the future. All it has really done has made me (us) lazy and completly incapable of self-reliance.

[RAGE]

Oh, its not just fashion. As I said, its the lifestyle that suites me, the appeal to my personal aesthetics, interests, social draws and such...

What it isnt is a form of rebellion. I'm not actively rebelling against anything. I have no issue with society, "normal" people, Christianity or any such entity. To me that isnt a sign of immaturity, but rather insecurity or irrational bitterness.

I like my choice of style because it suites my aesthetics. Not to rebel.
I like the music I prefer because it appeals to me, my frame of mind, moods, auditory aesthetics and interests. Not to rebel.
I like the scene and clubs because it appeals to me socially. It is not the only social group I spend time with and party with though. I'm rather outgoing.
I like BDSM because it suites my mind set and is sexually fulfilling.
I'm not Christian not because of bad experiances, but because I felt a calling elsewhere. I have no issues with the religion, no disdain or hatred for it.

The only things in society that annoy me are:

Those that cry persecution.
Those that do nothing better than whine about how shitty everything is.
Those that dont research the religion they claim to follow.
Those that rebel for the sake of rebellion and image.
Those that choose a lifestyle not be personal calling but out of spite for how they were raised.
Those that see no worth in education.
Those that see no worth in guidelines, rules or laws.

*shrugs*
Everyone goes their own ways. But just because I disagree with some of it doesnt make me a rebel.

So, how are you a rebel and non-conformist? What makes you such?

[Morning Glory]

It must be pretty nice to live in a bubble, since that's where you must be if those are the only things in society that you find fault with. ****, murder, and gross exploitation don't bother you so much as people that burst your bubble by trying to draw attention to them?

I think one way that I am a "rebel and a non-comformist"... which, by the way, are words that I don't normally use because they are just meaningless cultural buzz words that were created and are generally used to describe things that are anything but those things for the sake of allowing people to buy into the idea without any of the threatenting substance (see: goths that want to get along with thier right-wing neighbors.)... is reflected in my views on society and parenting.

[GnArKiLL]

It must be pretty nice to live in a bubble, since that's where you must be if those are the only things in society that you find fault with. ****, murder, and gross exploitation don't bother you so much as people that burst your bubble by trying to draw attention to them?

I think one way that I am a "rebel and a non-comformist"... which, by the way, are words that I don't normally use because they are just meaningless cultural buzz words that were created and are generally used to describe things that are anything but those things for the sake of allowing people to buy into the idea without any of the threatenting substance (see: goths that want to get along with thier right-wing neighbors.)... is reflected in my views on society and parenting.

Since when did the words "rebel" and "non conformist" replace the phrase Common sense?

[RAGE]

Bubble? No. I've had my fair share of bad experiances.
What I dont do is allow them to make me bitter.

Actually... A Rapist, murderer and such is what I would concider not the norm of society. Or rather, the rebel or non-conformist. Because they're the ones really going against the norm. They're the ones really going against society. They have made them selves a literal threat to society, rather than part of it.

And... How does your presented views make you non-conformist or rebellious? They arent all that uncommon, alternative life-style or not.

[Morning Glory]

sorry soccer mom, I don't need to prove my 'street cred' to you. I wasn't aware that this was a pissing competition.

[RAGE]

*shrugs*

Just trying to see where your coming from.
Because so far, your still just another member of society, like myself and everyone else, thats not really rebelling against anything other than the ideal of normal.

[Velvet-Tongue]

Oh Morning Glory, you're just such a rebel! *stary eyes*