Digital Downloads Beyond Itunes

[One Eyed Cat]

The itunes selection is decent. Invariably, it lacks a lot of music I might like to simply download. Having uploaded an entire collection, it defeats the purpose to buy more cds. Napster and emusic seem to have little more to offer than itunes. I have found bands that allow u to buy albums digitally, but this still does not suffice in terms of what I want.

The potential here is immense for bands. I wish more would simply allow downloads of their albums for a set price (or even individual songs).

What do folks here use beyond the 3 I mentioned? It would behoove the music industry to sell albums digitally. As it stands, it would seem easier for folks to trade uploads as historically one traded albums.

My specific search was for Sex Gang Children. I bought the only album on itunes. The same album appeared on emusic and napster (which have some rather odd dtipulations in their memberships). Beyond that, I was directed to mp3 sites in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Dobri. Dobri. WTO?

Any recommendations? I will literally end up buying used cds, uploading, and chucking em otherwise. Bands would still not get paid. Vinyl I will buy. Cds: bleh fuck em.

OEC

[Mindgames]

So you're saying that you found what you were looking for on all three of the major online music stores, and that there are CDs as well.. but all that 'does not suffice'.

How bout a service where you pay 50 cents and the band comes round your house and cooks you dinner?

[One Eyed Cat]

So you're saying that you found what you were looking for on all three of the major online music stores, and that there are CDs as well.. but all that 'does not suffice'.

How bout a service where you pay 50 cents and the band comes round your house and cooks you dinner?

No. no. I *couldn't* find anything past one album. I have Deiche and bought Song and Legend. I can get em all on cd, but I was wondering if there were additional legit mp3 sources. Totally new at this. Wasn't downing bands. They'll just get more cuts the more legit stuff u can download.

OEC

[EasyRider]

I'm looking for the Wurzels, but unless I'm in the UK I can't get "Combine Harvester".

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm looking for the Wurzels, but unless I'm in the UK I can't get "Combine Harvester".

what format? Try www.gemm.com

OEC

[EasyRider]

Instant digital download.

[Kidthorazine]

I stick to buying CDs for more obscure stuff. If you don't like CDs that much then buy it, rip it and sell it back, it would probably be the same price or cheaper than DLing, plus bands usually get more royalties from CDs than they do downloads.

[One Eyed Cat]

I stick to buying CDs for more obscure stuff. If you don't like CDs that much then buy it, rip it and sell it back, it would probably be the same price or cheaper than DLing, plus bands usually get more royalties from CDs than they do downloads.

If you buy a cd or vinyl used though, they get nothing. I do still buy and trade cds, I just wish more was available for download. That was really my only point. I don't know what the royalty differential is, but a lot of people would buy d/ls just for convenience.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Instant digital download.

You'd probably have to upload on that.

OEC

[Mindgames]

No. no. I *couldn't* find anything past one album.

Always the best approach is to contact the band via their website and ask - that way you'll get an accurate answer and only lists of legit sites, plus if they're small-scale it may prompt them to add more stuff to their online catalog.

With most bands the distribution on back catalog is controlled by the label with a fist of iron, and just 'adding it to iTunes' isn't as easy as it sounds - many of the contracts for those involved are written assuming a fixed retail life for the impression, and it can be a problem when old BC stuff hits retail years later. It's the reason why it takes so long for labels to agree terms even with iTunes (EMI, etc. took years to broker a deal because of contract problems on older albums). Deleting an album is sometimes an intentional sales tool to massage the figures and once it's deleted it can be horribly complex to 'undelete' without issuing a new version (which is why 'best of' albums and 'remastered' versions are used instead. Added to all this some contracts written before the download market really took off don't allow for sales of anything but legacy (CD etc) as the royalties are different.

Take for example a band I worked with whose first album contract was a 'tester', where the label wanted to see if they'd sell enough to turn profit in 6 months. The contract just said "sales of 75,000" (retail units) as everyone know the CD would be deleted at 6 months. If that is now uploaded to iTunes, the band have a case against the label if they NOW clear their 75,000 and if they were dropped for missing it (which they were in this example) lawyers would be running scared.

[One Eyed Cat]

Always the best approach is to contact the band via their website and ask - that way you'll get an accurate answer and only lists of legit sites, plus if they're small-scale it may prompt them to add more stuff to their online catalog.

With most bands the distribution on back catalog is controlled by the label with a fist of iron, and just 'adding it to iTunes' isn't as easy as it sounds - many of the contracts for those involved are written assuming a fixed retail life for the impression, and it can be a problem when old BC stuff hits retail years later. It's the reason why it takes so long for labels to agree terms even with iTunes (EMI, etc. took years to broker a deal because of contract problems on older albums). Deleting an album is sometimes an intentional sales tool to massage the figures and once it's deleted it can be horribly complex to 'undelete' without issuing a new version (which is why 'best of' albums and 'remastered' versions are used instead. Added to all this some contracts written before the download market really took off don't allow for sales of anything but legacy (CD etc) as the royalties are different.

Take for example a band I worked with whose first album contract was a 'tester', where the label wanted to see if they'd sell enough to turn profit in 6 months. The contract just said "sales of 75,000" (retail units) as everyone know the CD would be deleted at 6 months. If that is now uploaded to iTunes, the band have a case against the label if they NOW clear their 75,000 and if they were dropped for missing it (which they were in this example) lawyers would be running scared.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I have downloaded off individual artist's sites a few times. I do wish more indie labels would consider going this route, albeit it is a bit pollyanish.

OEC

[Mindgames]

I agree that indies and self-signers can benefit a lot from putting their stuff online in retail format (it's not impossible for an act, signed or not, to get stuff onto iTunes or Napster, just a whole lot of paperwork) but it depends on the route to profit they want. Quite a lot of small labels are geared up to make their cash from upselling artists (signing them off to a major) and I know indies that think if they put stuff online it will somehow make their stable less 'saleable' to the majors. I don't agree with it, but the music industry is full of people who last learnt a new idea when Reagan was still thinking about the primaries.

In terms of a self-signer putting music direct on their own website that's a whole different ball game, as to set up the DRM system is a nightmare - no band looking for an upsell can put more than a small sample of their stuff online DRM-free as obviously A+R isn't going to pay for a bunch of tracks the world can get for free - the act may still get signed but on a new-material-only deal, which means months living off tester advances trying to write 12 new tracks. Integrating Fairplay or WMDRM into a standalone site is... interesting.

It's the eternal juggling act.. give away enough of your best stuff to get attention, and you'll get signed. Give it all away and you won't.

Finally (since I'm rambling, may as well..) a lot of startups change their management/label a few times, with demos and EPs being produced by people on a master-hold deal (the rihts to the recording stay with the label, not the artist). When they get a following it's often impossible for the artist to get access to their early stuff, or to stop the old deals being exploited. Friends of mine are plagued by an early producer selling second presses of their deleted first album on eBay as 'originals', as back in the day it was rarer than hens teeth and now the fans want copies. Nobody can stop him so the band have to resort to telling fans to look for the tracks on filesharing sites instead - they're probably the only people who can't post the stuff to their own website!

[One Eyed Cat]

I agree that indies and self-signers can benefit a lot from putting their stuff online in retail format (it's not impossible for an act, signed or not, to get stuff onto iTunes or Napster, just a whole lot of paperwork) but it depends on the route to profit they want. Quite a lot of small labels are geared up to make their cash from upselling artists (signing them off to a major) and I know indies that think if they put stuff online it will somehow make their stable less 'saleable' to the majors. I don't agree with it, but the music industry is full of people who last learnt a new idea when Reagan was still thinking about the primaries.

In terms of a self-signer putting music direct on their own website that's a whole different ball game, as to set up the DRM system is a nightmare - no band looking for an upsell can put more than a small sample of their stuff online DRM-free as obviously A+R isn't going to pay for a bunch of tracks the world can get for free - the act may still get signed but on a new-material-only deal, which means months living off tester advances trying to write 12 new tracks. Integrating Fairplay or WMDRM into a standalone site is... interesting.

It's the eternal juggling act.. give away enough of your best stuff to get attention, and you'll get signed. Give it all away and you won't.

Finally (since I'm rambling, may as well..) a lot of startups change their management/label a few times, with demos and EPs being produced by people on a master-hold deal (the rihts to the recording stay with the label, not the artist). When they get a following it's often impossible for the artist to get access to their early stuff, or to stop the old deals being exploited. Friends of mine are plagued by an early producer selling second presses of their deleted first album on eBay as 'originals', as back in the day it was rarer than hens teeth and now the fans want copies. Nobody can stop him so the band have to resort to telling fans to look for the tracks on filesharing sites instead - they're probably the only people who can't post the stuff to their own website!

You mean the phony 7" and demos I take it? Thia is pretty pitiful. Caveat Emptor on ebay though as well. It is definitely a juggling act. I've seen bands on ******* put up their whole catalog for free. I do have a friend who has a mid-level following. He charges for downloads off his site. I would imagine a lot of bands fall somewhere in between. I could see it benefitting say a Trisol.de or Tribes of Neurot Records band.

OEC

[Mindgames]

It's down to what the band thinks they need to 'make it' - many new bands "doing it for the music" see success as a vast sea of individual fans, and posting free material or myspacing like a rabid squirrel gets them that - but it won't get them airplay or a record deal unless they really stand out from the crowd. Other bands are looking for a 'career' and don't see fan numbers as that important but want the security of a record deal and regular mechanical checks. In truth it needs to be a bit of both, unfortunately 90% of new acts don't learn that until it's too late.

There's also summat called the 'loyalty breakpoint' - a new act develops a small group of fans that feel more dedication to 'supporting' their new artist, and so it's massively easier to sell them stuff like MP3 files without the fans all shafting the act and filesharing to the world. At some point the act gets interest from the wider community and what started as a 'polite arrangement with friends that like us' turns into something exploitable by people who just want a free tune. Labels have to predict the breakpoint and change the entire marketing package just in time, so the original fanbase is nurtured but the newcomers don't steal the free beer - it's another reason why old material can suddenly vanish from the public arena.

[One Eyed Cat]

It's down to what the band thinks they need to 'make it' - many new bands "doing it for the music" see success as a vast sea of individual fans, and posting free material or myspacing like a rabid squirrel gets them that - but it won't get them airplay or a record deal unless they really stand out from the crowd. Other bands are looking for a 'career' and don't see fan numbers as that important but want the security of a record deal and regular mechanical checks. In truth it needs to be a bit of both, unfortunately 90% of new acts don't learn that until it's too late.

There's also summat called the 'loyalty breakpoint' - a new act develops a small group of fans that feel more dedication to 'supporting' their new artist, and so it's massively easier to sell them stuff like MP3 files without the fans all shafting the act and filesharing to the world. At some point the act gets interest from the wider community and what started as a 'polite arrangement with friends that like us' turns into something exploitable by people who just want a free tune. Labels have to predict the breakpoint and change the entire marketing package just in time, so the original fanbase is nurtured but the newcomers don't steal the free beer - it's another reason why old material can suddenly vanish from the public arena.

Damn this is synchronicity. I just put up one example under promotionals. It is consistent with what you're saying (for better or worse). The band had been on Atlantic and had a steady fanbase. Obviously, that made it way easier (this is the third of fourth album u can d/l). My sense is he has both loyal fans and some that go past the breakpoint. He's doing pretty well financially. I wish this model was more operative, but it sounds like you're gonna hit a catch-22 if a major is even a possibility.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Damn this is synchronicity. I just put up one example under promotionals. It is consistent with what you're saying (for better or worse). The band had been on Atlantic and had a steady fanbase. Obviously, that made it way easier (this is the third of fourth album u can d/l). My sense is he has both loyal fans and some that go past the breakpoint. He's doing pretty well financially. I wish this model was more operative, but it sounds like you're gonna hit a catch-22 if a major is even a possibility.

OEC

*Elektra* rather. WEA.