Acceptable Uniforms...

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I am on another forum and they are arguing about the growing number of Goths wearing "Nazi" uniforms, and how they are inappropriate. My opinion is that nowadays, they are just antique clothing, so are ok.

Some people are saying that they should be banned from events. My reply was to if you're going to ban one army's uniform, you should ban them all.

I was just wondering what you guys thought about this.

[Buster Friendly]

fuckin' ban 'em.

fuckin' nazis.

hate fuckin' nazis...

...ooooooor, let people wear them, but don't get all bent out of shape when other people kick the living shit out of the nazi fucks.

[EasyRider]

Some bikers back in the 60s wore swastikas and iron crosses just to piss people off.

The swastika is coming back amongst some of that crowd thanks to the Jesse Jameses of the world. You can get iron cross pencil cases at Target now for kids.

Result: the swastika. Co-opt that one, assholes.

[Bondage Clown]

Well, I don't give a shit.. Funny story, I was in college, and during Spring quarter.. there was this buzz about a Neo-Nazi (Wearing the uniform and spouting propaganda) and he was doing this on campus.

I thought it would be fun to search this guy out, to see what he had to say, because I am a history buff, and have studied that time period and those events fairly well, and I like calling BS when I see it.

Well, imagine my shock and disbelief when I find the fellow, and the mother-fucker is a Black Guy. I was so amazed and in shock, that I walked up to him, and said, "Do you know that you are a balck man, talking about Nazi propaganda?" He said, "Nope, I am an aryan, with a deep suntan."

We became instant friends after that. I don't care what people think of Hitler's Nazi's.. I was part of the Sharps, I was a skinhead, I still am a racist. But that doesn't stop me from being friends with individual people. I just stereo-typically hate everyone.

Anyway, I was called a Nazi in the 8th grade through Sophomore year in High School because i had my head shaved, was wearing black, and wore combat boots. Worst was the fact that I was in ROTC, and loved wearing my uniform.

SO no, Don't ban anything. Don't discriminate against clothing. If the people wearing the clothing know the meaning, and are not giving a shit about it.. I say More power to them.

What doesn't hurt you or someone else, shouldn't bother you nor should the choices of what someone makes for themselves, as they are only going to be damaging to themselves, and no one else. SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!!!

Oh and Buster (with all due respect, my friend), ..."ooooooor, let people wear them, but don't get all bent out of shape when other people kick the living shit out of the nazi fucks. "

What happens if they got their gear from a relative and they are respecting their ancestors. What if they are making a political statement. Talke a chance and don't jump to conclusions.. You never know, you may find out that you don't have to kick their asses, maybe the guy behind in line at the club, but not them.

[One Eyed Cat]

I am on another forum and they are arguing about the growing number of Goths wearing "Nazi" uniforms, and how they are inappropriate. My opinion is that nowadays, they are just antique clothing, so are ok.

Some people are saying that they should be banned from events. My reply was to if you're going to ban one army's uniform, you should ban them all.

I was just wondering what you guys thought about this.

Banned from which events specifically? Are they attempting a public ban or are private parties banning people from Nazi uniforms from attending these events? This is a bit more complex than you might think. Specifically, what and where are they being banned from (or may be banned from)? A ban by law or a ban by event organizers?

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Well, I don't give a shit.. Funny story, I was in college, and during Spring quarter.. there was this buzz about a Neo-Nazi (Wearing the uniform and spouting propaganda) and he was doing this on campus.

I thought it would be fun to search this guy out, to see what he had to say, because I am a history buff, and have studied that time period and those events fairly well, and I like calling BS when I see it.

Well, imagine my shock and disbelief when I find the fellow, and the mother-fucker is a Black Guy. I was so amazed and in shock, that I walked up to him, and said, "Do you know that you are a balck man, talking about Nazi propaganda?" He said, "Nope, I am an aryan, with a deep suntan."

We became instant friends after that. I don't care what people think of Hitler's Nazi's.. I was part of the Sharps, I was a skinhead, I still am a racist. But that doesn't stop me from being friends with individual people. I just stereo-typically hate everyone.

Anyway, I was called a Nazi in the 8th grade through Sophomore year in High School because i had my head shaved, was wearing black, and wore combat boots. Worst was the fact that I was in ROTC, and loved wearing my uniform.

SO no, Don't ban anything. Don't discriminate against clothing. If the people wearing the clothing know the meaning, and are not giving a shit about it.. I say More power to them.

What doesn't hurt you or someone else, shouldn't bother you nor should the choices of what someone makes for themselves, as they are only going to be damaging to themselves, and no one else. SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!!!

Oh and Buster (with all due respect, my friend), ..."ooooooor, let people wear them, but don't get all bent out of shape when other people kick the living shit out of the nazi fucks. "

What happens if they got their gear from a relative and they are respecting their ancestors. What if they are making a political statement. Talke a chance and don't jump to conclusions.. You never know, you may find out that you don't have to kick their asses, maybe the guy behind in line at the club, but not them.

You were a SHARP then became a racist skinhead (and are still racist)? Can you kinda describe how this happened? I'm just curious. That has to be fairly rare (unless a word was omitted or something)

OEC

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

It's not the symbol or the uniform I have ever had a problem with. It wasn't the uniforms that killed people. It wasn't the symbols either. People wear the uniforms to shock, you see it in artists all the time. I prefer goths in nazi uniforms over actual racists in goth uniforms any day.

However, I can kind of understand why they would want to ban them at events. I would get some weird looks from my neighbors if there was a parade of nazi's coming and going. While I don't agree with buster that they shouldn't get uspet if someone kicks the crap out of them for it, but it is a bit silly to wear the uniform for reaction, then get upset by the reaction.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

The discussion was for a UK goth event. The organisers are trying to get people to not wear Nazi paraphenalia, as they think it's in bad taste.

One argument I put forward was that if you're going to ban one army's uniform, you may as well ban all army uniforms.

I'm certain that if someone wore an Iraqi Elite Force dress uniform, some people would find it offensive. Or someone wearing an Argentinian dress uniform over here.

I also pointed out that nowadays they should be seen as what they are, ANTIQUE CLOTHING (since the classic view is, if something is over 50 years old it is considered an antique)

Should we ban Napoleonic french uniforms, since we were at war with the French at the time?

Where do you draw the line?

[Velvet-Tongue]

Oh and Buster (with all due respect, my friend), ..."ooooooor, let people wear them, but don't get all bent out of shape when other people kick the living shit out of the nazi fucks. "

What happens if they got their gear from a relative and they are respecting their ancestors. What if they are making a political statement. Talke a chance and don't jump to conclusions.. You never know, you may find out that you don't have to kick their asses, maybe the guy behind in line at the club, but not them.

Well there are alot better ways to respect your ancestors and to make a political statement then to wear a nazi military uniform. Especially considering how most of the world views them. They don't see the Nazi's as a military force from a dead political movement but as a symbol of hate, ignorance and murder.

[Buster Friendly]

well, i can honor my german ancestors, who went back over to germany during WWII and blew the fucking brains out of their cousin's heads, by kicking nazi poser ass. it also makes an nice political statement, "nazi punks FUCK OFF!"

...of course in the world of post adolecent testosterone, i'd much rather find their personal data, and ruin their credit, get them flagged as AIDS carriers, have them put on the FBI terrorist watch list, and marked as donors to every concievable religious charity, so they'll get a constant stream of solicitations from religious kooks.

but that's just me...

[Morning Glory]

it's one thing to go about preserving history for the sake of remembering it, especially if it's paying condolenses to a tragedy. It's another to celebrate things like nazism. I can understand that there are some people that want to "take back" infamous things in order to seperate the idealogy from them and return them to a neutral meaning in order to delegitimize the negatives. to a certain degree I can respect that intention, but the problem is that by celebrating certain bad things it gives celebration to people that are honoring it as it's original intent. to make things clear: if you say it's ok for people to wear nazi insignia, it's only going to encourage people that hold nazi beliefs to display them proudly, not renounce them.

I'm not neccesarily in favor of cencorship to anything that may be found offensive, god knows I embrace the blasphemous... but some things are just too horrible that they can't ever be forgotten for what they were and still are.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I am not glorifying the Nazis, and there has been a lot of posts on the other forum about how if you're going to ban SS uniforms, then you should ban Leather Trenchcoats, people driving VW cars and anything by Hugo Boss (since he designed the original SS uniforms)
What I'm saying is where do you stop? There are a lot of people that wouldn't be upset by someone wearing a British "Boer War" uniform, but the British were the people that invented the Concentration Camp during the Boer War.

Do you stop people wearing Ankhs because it's a symbol of the Egyptian Pharoahs (persecutors of Jewish slaves)? Or crosses and pentagrams with the same outfit, as they are "opposing symbols"?

The Nazi party did some horrendous things, but I think there are very few countries in this world that don't have skeletons in their historical closets!

Someone on the other forum made the suggestion that a uniform with no insignia was just a badly tailored suit. So I said if someone wore an SS uniform but with a Smiley on the Armband instead of the Swastika and funny badges in place of the Totemkoffs, would that be ok?

[GnArKiLL]

does holloween count?

[One Eyed Cat]

It would be at the discretion of the organizers. You can have a "black tie" event for example. Studio 54 in NYC only allowed in the people the found hippest and/or prettiest. You can "discriminate", in that sense, as you wish. I'd do do a cost/benefit analysis on which way my customers may have more fun. Also, I would have to consider liability if the Nazis were beaten senseless. In short, they ain't getting in.

OEC

[Black Spiral Dancer]

The problem is, the event I'm talkng about is the Whitby Goth Weekend (I was reluctant to mention the forum, to discourage cross forum posting as I was just getting other people's opinions), where the general rule is wear what you want, as long as you cover yourself (and I've seen some people only just doing that) They are very relaxed on the dress code, so people can wear jeans and t-shirt in the same place as someone in a ballgown and someone in full Fetish outfit. The whole atmosphere is normally very relaxed, especially for an evening in a small fishing town on the east coast of England.
The whole nazi uniform thing has been blown up out of proportion. I personally own a t-shirt that says "Nazi Goths Fuck Off", since I don't condone the Nazi party and what they did, but I wouldn't stop anyone wearing any clothing they like, just because it looked like a Nazi uniform. If they want the attention, it's up to them.

[One Eyed Cat]

I am not glorifying the Nazis, and there has been a lot of posts on the other forum about how if you're going to ban SS uniforms, then you should ban Leather Trenchcoats, people driving VW cars and anything by Hugo Boss (since he designed the original SS uniforms)
What I'm saying is where do you stop? There are a lot of people that wouldn't be upset by someone wearing a British "Boer War" uniform, but the British were the people that invented the Concentration Camp during the Boer War.

Do you stop people wearing Ankhs because it's a symbol of the Egyptian Pharoahs (persecutors of Jewish slaves)? Or crosses and pentagrams with the same outfit, as they are "opposing symbols"?

The Nazi party did some horrendous things, but I think there are very few countries in this world that don't have skeletons in their historical closets!

Someone on the other forum made the suggestion that a uniform with no insignia was just a badly tailored suit. So I said if someone wore an SS uniform but with a Smiley on the Armband instead of the Swastika and funny badges in place of the Totemkoffs, would that be ok?

Personally, it would not bother me to be banned from a completely private event. I see this as whining by the faux or actual Nazis. They are free to have their own event and discriminate against myself and others who may choose to defame the same symbol. I may wear whatever I wish, but it is absurd for me to stomp my feet and demand a positive response from others. In my view, this is a matter of volition. I do not believe private actors need to allow me into their events.

OEC

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I mean, my wife has been ponderig buying me a Panzer Commander's jacket. I wouldn't say no to a new dress jacket, as long as it fitted.
All of the insignia has been removed, so I could adorn it how I liked.

[One Eyed Cat]

The problem is, the event I'm talkng about is the Whitby Goth Weekend (I was reluctant to mention the forum, to discourage cross forum posting as I was just getting other people's opinions), where the general rule is wear what you want, as long as you cover yourself (and I've seen some people only just doing that) They are very relaxed on the dress code, so people can wear jeans and t-shirt in the same place as someone in a ballgown and someone in full Fetish outfit. The whole atmosphere is normally very relaxed, especially for an evening in a small fishing town on the east coast of England.
The whole nazi uniform thing has been blown up out of proportion. I personally own a t-shirt that says "Nazi Goths Fuck Off", since I don't condone the Nazi party and what they did, but I wouldn't stop anyone wearing any clothing they like, just because it looked like a Nazi uniform. If they want the attention, it's up to them.

I was quite certain you did not condone the Nazis in any sense. I may allow them in if the conditions were conducive. It does not sound they like they are in this instance. I'm not sure if/how U.K. law may apply here. This does not sound like an instance where the matter should be forced. If you feel their right to expression is being denied, I would boycott the event. The event coordinators may reconsider if enough people did.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

I mean, my wife has been ponderig buying me a Panzer Commander's jacket. I wouldn't say no to a new dress jacket, as long as it fitted.
All of the insignia has been removed, so I could adorn it how I liked.

You are entirely at liberty to do so. While I may find it silly for you to be denied entrance, I still would not necessarily force the issue. As private actors, we do still have some degree of discretion whom we do and do not associate with. If the "Nazi Goths" were to disallow yamulkes and stars of david at their own private events based on their audience, I see that as their right. I would boycott their event based on my own personal convictions, however. If the symbols are meaningful to them, they should have no problem doing the same here. I am assuming these are not "public accomodations" or anything that may meet a standard of legal discrimination (I doubt it could in any sense)

OEC

[Mr Karl]

yeah we got those 'nazi goths' around here too, except we call them 'the youth'

[EasyRider]

Sad, really.

I once saw a gal at a Goth club who had a dress that didn't quite meet at the back. It was held together by a shoelace type affair. Nicest asscrack I'd ever seen.

*thinks of it wistfully*

[Kidthorazine]

Yeah its perfectly within the rights of the owners and/or promoters to ban stuff like that. I support that.

On the whole issue of Nazi uniforms, it's freedom of expression I really don't care, hell it was really big in the early British punk scene to wear swastikas for shock value. Even if its being worn by neo-nazis, it's thier right to do that, even though I think neo-nazis are absolutely disgusting.

[Morning Glory]

hey, do what you want. everyone is entitled to whatever they wish to believe right or wrong. but you asked my opinion so I politely told you that one of the things that I think is wrong is wearing a nazi uniform. honestly, I will respect peoples viewpoints to a certain degree and I may agree or disagree or tolerate or not; I still believe what I do and that won't change. If someone else's beliefs or actions or any manner of being is perceived by me to be hostile to my own than I will respond to it whoever I feel appropriate. that's not a threat, that's a statement of self preservation.

[Bondage Clown]

You were a SHARP then became a racist skinhead (and are still racist)? Can you kinda describe how this happened? I'm just curious. That has to be fairly rare (unless a word was omitted or something)

OEC

IN High School, I joined the SHARPS... Then i got into other scenes, it was a crazy spiral and whirlwind of time. I was 19, and hanging out at Punk Shows, then i am going to OI Band shows, then i end up in Cor D'lane (sp) Idaho at a few retreats, watching American History X, and listening to bands like Prussian Blue (The Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen of the Skin's).

When I say I am a racists, I meant just that.. I can not stand groups of people and what they stand for... I every group of people.. except two... The French, and the Ugandans. Yes, I hate Americans too.

However, I am also individualist, because I have friends in almost every group. I try to sit down and talk to them every now again, about how i feel, and the funny thing is that most of them agree with me.

Sheeple are sheeple, no matter what race, gender, creed. They all suck.

[Toe Cutter]

They wear that shit to say "Fuck You", not because they are Nazis. Sid Vicious, Billy Idol & Siouxsie (among many others) wore swastikas for the same effect. To me it seems like in western culture where you can see so much crazy shit on the internet and whatever, it's one of the few things that still totally offends people. It's like being a heavy metal satanist in the late 70's or 80's. Practically the same thing.

If your pissed off about it, that means that it still works. In that context I think it's fine. I'd laugh my ass off if I saw a hot topic goth teen wearing a swastika Tshirt.

[One Eyed Cat]

IN High School, I joined the SHARPS... Then i got into other scenes, it was a crazy spiral and whirlwind of time. I was 19, and hanging out at Punk Shows, then i am going to OI Band shows, then i end up in Cor D'lane (sp) Idaho at a few retreats, watching American History X, and listening to bands like Prussian Blue (The Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen of the Skin's).

When I say I am a racists, I meant just that.. I can not stand groups of people and what they stand for... I every group of people.. except two... The French, and the Ugandans. Yes, I hate Americans too.

However, I am also individualist, because I have friends in almost every group. I try to sit down and talk to them every now again, about how i feel, and the funny thing is that most of them agree with me.

Sheeple are sheeple, no matter what race, gender, creed. They all suck.

I hear ya. That's more how you come across. Individualism with a few hits of misanthropy.

OEC

[KilLAtomiK]

say what you will about the Nazi party, but they had the snazziest uniforms of the war, esecialy the black SS uniforms. other than that fuck em and their racist views because basicaly people are like dogs, we come in diferent colors and shapes but were still the same species. I never got the whole my people are better because we are a difernt color than you mentality.

[Mr Karl]

yeah they did have snazzy uniforms, didn't they

[Black Spiral Dancer]

And people are surprised when the uniforms are emulated for fetish purposes...

[EasyRider]

Coeur D'Alene is how it's spelled.

[grebo]

Remind them they are wearing the uniform of the losing side in WW2, whos leader was so hypocritical that he and his generals were nothing like the ubermensch he wanted germans to be and took the pussys way out by killing himself.

[One Eyed Cat]

They wear that shit to say "Fuck You", not because they are Nazis. Sid Vicious, Billy Idol & Siouxsie (among many others) wore swastikas for the same effect. To me it seems like in western culture where you can see so much crazy shit on the internet and whatever, it's one of the few things that still totally offends people. It's like being a heavy metal satanist in the late 70's or 80's. Practically the same thing.

If your pissed off about it, that means that it still works. In that context I think it's fine. I'd laugh my ass off if I saw a hot topic goth teen wearing a swastika Tshirt.

It would depend on the context in which it was done. Many did just do it for a fuck you and a few laughs, some believed in it. If you're the one running the gig, you have to make a quick call.

Off the Topic, but I find these dipshits wearing USSR t-shirts and such a lot more pathetic. The reason: They tend to be "well-intentioned" or "anti-capitalist" (despite the fact that these are mass-produced ) It doesn't offend me per se, but it makes me just a bit more cynical. The ones wearing the Nazi shit tend to know what it stood for, these Sovok twits don't even know what it was even about. It is a lot more disturbing. Trotskyites are even worse. Trotsky devised the grain requisition scheme that starved millions of peasants, Stalin simply implemented the plan. One thing the USSR did right: Put an ice pick through Trotsky's skull. These people just don't get it.

OEC

[grebo]

what about fuckwits wearing the ww2 rising sun japanese flags?

[One Eyed Cat]

what about fuckwits wearing the ww2 rising sun japanese flags?

I don't think I've seen any. Hirohito has a following still?

OEC

[mmmcherry]

from kidthorazine...

On the whole issue of Nazi uniforms, it's freedom of expression I really don't care, hell it was really big in the early British punk scene to wear swastikas for shock value. Even if its being worn by neo-nazis, it's thier right to do that, even though I think neo-nazis are absolutely disgusting.

from BC...

Sheeple are sheeple, no matter what race, gender, creed. They all suck.

i couldnt have said it better myself, with those 2 quotes... then that makes me think of "im not racist, i hate everybody equally."

basicaly people are like dogs, we come in diferent colors and shapes but were still the same species. I never got the whole my people are better because we are a difernt color than you mentality.

i never understood that either... makes me wonder what goes on in some peoples minds sometimes.
then again i probably dont want to know, itd just piss me off too much.

[One Eyed Cat]

And people are surprised when the uniforms are emulated for fetish purposes...

Soviet Uniforms are now used for the same purpose. An odd twist: It is generally people who hated em who do it. Ukrainian women do it on occasion. It's also popular when exploring various aspects of one's sexuality.My overall deal would be: Why are they doing it? Will my gig work? Hell, I'd throw a damn fetish gig in my studio (basically venue size). It's practicalities though BSD. With Soviet uniforms, it's a power relationship. The "Sovok" submits to you. It puts history on its head. So yeah fetish purposes, but they all have a different twist. Thought the dynamic might interest you. My issue with the twits wearing the shirts is that they believe the lies. You have to separate the two or it won't be fun at all.

OEC

[Bondage Clown]

what about fuckwits wearing the ww2 rising sun japanese flags?

Who The Karate Kid?

[One Eyed Cat]

Who The Karate Kid?

Oh shit those.. In the US, it would mean laughing your ass off. He's from Aus though. There is probably some odd real politick there.

OEC

[shiki]

I don't like that nazi shit but to each their own. That way you can at least spot them in the fuckin crowd. They're not hiding shit.
I personally wear the rebel flag on a regular basis. I have the most adorable rebel flag visor and a rebel flag patch on my purse. People do look at me like im crazy but I don't really care.

Why do rednecks get to tote it around but I don't for some reason. I think design wise it is much more attractive than the US flag. I like it. Around here people worship the Washington Redskinz which to me is one of the most racist names ever, so when they question my rebel flag I just remind them of that. and yes im a negro.

[One Eyed Cat]

I don't like that nazi shit but to each their own. That way you can at least spot them in the fuckin crowd. They're not hiding shit.
I personally wear the rebel flag on a regular basis. I have the most adorable rebel flag visor and a rebel flag patch on my purse. People do look at me like im crazy but I don't really care.

Why do rednecks get to tote it around but I don't for some reason. I think design wise it is much more attractive than the US flag. I like it. Around here people worship the Washington Redskinz which to me is one of the most racist names ever, so when they question my rebel flag I just remind them of that. and yes im a negro.

It's always the meaning behind the symbol that people are wondering about. Is there a specific reason u favor the Rebel Flag? I can only relate to it in the sense of force being used to maintain a Union the southerners had rejected. Obviously, I disagree with racism and slavery. This is the only way I can even understand it from my own perspective and experiences.

Here in PA, it seems to only have the racial connotation. I was at a bar night for school. Some guy came in wearing the Rebel Flag as a shirt. Was obnoxious. Whne questioned, he said it was because he hated n*******. Unfortunately for him, some of my classmates are black. We were able to get him out of there but just barely. He was provoking people and would have been beaten senseless. Is it family history for u? Or just kinda the old Billy Idol and Siouxsie fuck all to the world with the Swastikas?

OEC