faq: about Goth culture

[Gothic.sy]

Hi all i want a website or something to now about Goth culture ? i have been read this :

Quotations by Goths:

"...being Goth, for me, is seeing beauty, and its coming destruction, at the same time. For me...It's the last dance as the walls are crumbling around you..." Beatgrrl

"[Goth] is the ability to find the art where art seems to be lacking; to find the light in the darkness and embrace it for all its worth..." Jennifer Mason

"When a Goth dies, God laughs." R.G. Green from the parody web site GodHatesGoths.

Why discuss the Goth culture on a religious web site?
In the aftermath of the student and staff murders at Columbine high school in Littleton CO in 1999-APR, some of the media searched for simple reasons to explain the terrible tragedy. Some reporters bypassed the obvious causes (two teens having easy access to handguns and rifles; sustained ridicule, harassment, and rejection by their peers; their lack of respect for human life; their lack of hope for the future; etc.). Some reporters mentioned that the alleged perpetrators followed the Goth culture. A few reporters have incorrectly associated Goth with Satanism, violence, white supremacy and intolerance. The implication was that the Goth culture had been the cause of the alleged perpetrators' obsession with revenge, and thus is at least partly responsible for the homicides. Some quotations:

"...morose subculture of Gothic fantasy."

"They're basically outcasts, Gothic people, They're into anarchy. They're white supremacists and they're into Nostradamus stuff and Doomsday."

"Black trench coats are a consistent theme in the Gothic subculture that has attracted many teenagers to the poetry, music and costumes of a scene that ranges from benign fantasy to violent reality."

"Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, Gothic has become a fascination of many American high schoolers, some of whom simply dress and paint their fingernails black while others immerse themselves in a pseudo medieval world of dark images."

"Tuesday was Hitler's birthday, an occasion for demonstrations, mock funerals and other macabre commemorations among both neo-Nazis and parts of the Gothic scene." 7
The perpetrators at Littleton were apparently not Goths; rather, they had incorporated some Goth symbolism into their group's unique image. Similarly, they held hands in school; not because they were bisexual or homosexual, but in order to shock other students. Their goal was to disturb their fellow students and distance themselves from the school jocks who ridiculed and harassed them.

What is the Goth culture?
It is basically indefinable, because "Goth" means different things to each follower. Many adopt unusual fashions in order to separate themselves from other youth. Gordon A. Crews, associate dean of the School of Justice Studies at Roger Williams University in Bristol, CT is an investigator of what he calls the "occult" which-- in his opinion -- includes the Goth culture. He said: "It is up to the individual to define what Goth is for themselves ... The mentality is, 'I want to be left alone but I want to be seen. I want to see the shock on other peoples' faces." 11
Some factors that are commonly observed are:

Its unique music, art and literature.

The use of extreme black clothing, light colored makeup, unusual hair styles, body piercing, bondage items, etc.

A fascination with medieval, Victorian and Edwardian history.

Wearing of symbols such as a Christian cross; an Egyptian ankh or "Eye of Ra," or "Eye of Horus;" a Wiccan pentacle, a Satanic inverted pentacle. etc. 14

Goths tend to be non-violent, pacifistic, passive, and tolerant. Many in the media have mistakenly associated Goth with extreme violence and hatred of minorities, white supremacy, etc.

Many Goths write about being depressed. Followers seem sullen and withdrawn, when in public. They are often much more "happy and carefree in the company of [other] Goths." 1 Examples of depression are:

"Tigriss," commenting on her own life, writes: "So my gothic persona fit me quite well. My black clothing and dark music aptly reflected my own depression, pain, and anger which was what I made most of my life about. Most of my goth friends had dysfunctional families and troubled childhoods as mine. We could identify with each other through our dark make-up and painful pasts." 12

Researcher Jasin Tamlin comments: "If you take a look at the 640 sites that are listed on the Gothic Web Ring, you will find many of them filled with desperation, depression, anger, hatred, despair and angst." 13


"A lot of people turn to the Gothic subculture after having a hard time in school, feeling alienated, and looking for a way to express themselves that mirrors those feelings. Others find the scene through literature, still others want to be shocking, and some people just find black clothing slimming." 1

Goth music often deals with thought-provoking topics, concentrating on societal evils, like racism, war, hatred of groups, etc. Their music tends to concentrate on the very "nasty, unhappy" topics that "North American culture" wants to "ignore and forget."

A fascination with death. They try "to find a different way of thinking about life, like trying to find beauty in life, pain and death. It's all a quest for immortality." 2

In contrast, many Goths are optimistic about the future and see much beauty in the world.

Some Goths enjoy playing role playing games. However, RPGs are not an integral component of Goth culture. It is just that those intellectual and creative challenges that draw them to the Goth scene make them more likely to enjoy RPGs as well.

Other interests: writings by authors like Dante, Byron, Tolstoy; German Expressionist silent films; writing music; painting, etc.


History and background:

The words Goth and Gothic have had many, largely unrelated meanings in the past:

the name of the Germanic Visigoth tribes that overthrew the Roman Empire. From this source arose the concept of a Goth as an uncivilized person, a barbarian. 4

a style of architecture in Western Europe which was popular from the 12th to the 16th century.

a style of horror/mystery literature that is dark, eerie and gloomy.


Goth, as a modern movement, started as one component of the punk rock scene. As the latter faded, Goth survived by creating its own subculture.

The first use of the term Goth in its present meaning is believed to have been on a British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) TV program. Anthony H. Wilson, manager of Joy Division described the band as Gothic compared with the pop mainstream. The name stuck.

Their use of black clothing was originally "something of a backlash to the colorful disco music of the seventies." 5 It also stuck.

The movement first became established in the Batcave, a nightclub in London, England, in the early 1980's. 3

Spreading to the U.S., it first became popular in California.

Goth is featured in The Crow horror movies (1994, 1996). Other Gothic movies are the original Nosferatu, the color remake Nosferatu the Vampyre, and the Cabinet of Doctor Caligari.

Popular music bands are the Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Sisters of Mercy, Dead Can Dance, and many others.

Religion:
Many Goths reflect popular culture and are probably nominal or devout Christians. Atheism, Agnosticism, the New Age, Gnosticism, Shamanism, Wicca, other Neopagan traditions, and other minority faith groups are represented more frequently than in the general population.
Goths often wear Christian crosses or Christian crucifixes, which many regard as a pre-Christian religious symbol. Others wear New Age/ancient Egyptian Ankh symbols. Some do this as expression of their religious beliefs, some for satire, and others because they like their appearance.
Religion is frequently discussed on the Goth newsgroups. Many songs, band names and album titles have Christian themes. 6
The public incorrectly commonly associates Goths with Marilyn Manson. 10 "Manson publicly presents himself as a follower of the Church of Satan... He was ordained a priest in the Church of Satan by the [late] founder, Anton LaVey. Many fans refer to him as the Rev. Marilyn Manson." 9 (Actually, Manson is not a follower of that Church; he was simply appointed as a Reverend within the Church by its founder, Anton LaVey.) From this Satanic connection, the perception has grown that Goths are frequently linked to Satanism. There are a few Satanists who are also Goths, but they are rare.

Stereotypes:
People have accused or described Goths as being:

Depressed,

Unusually bigoted,

Violent,

Suicidal,

Involved in illegal drugs,

Vampires or believe themselves to be vampires,

Sado-masochists,

Satanists,

Musicians, painters, and other artists,

Computer programmers (although there seem to be a lot of them)

Wearers of black (some wear white and gunmetal),

Dyers of their hair,

Users of white makeup. 4
Some of the above probably apply to some Goths, but definitely not to all.

.


is it all right or what ???

[Gothic.sy]

and i found this too :

Anti-Goth parody web site:
Please do not read the next six paragraphs unless you
have a strong stomach, are slow to anger, and are over 18.
GodHatesGoths . com is apparently a lampoon web site written from an exaggerated fundamentalist Christian point of view. They present themselves as the official website of an apparently non-existent organization "Parents Against Goth" headed by a fictional character, Rev. R. G. Green. He writes: "I hope you will find much comfort in the message of hope and inspiration our website offers."
He quotes the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and its list of crimes for which the penalty is death: Witchcraft, Satanism, Divination, spell casting, acting as a medium, rebellion against one's parents, blasphemy, worshiping Gods other than Yahweh, disrespecting a member of the clergy. He implies that these prohibitions and their punishment by execution are still valid today.
He interprets the Bible as condemning to Hell all Buddhists, Goths, Hindus, Jews, Satanists, Wiccans, as well as children who die young or individuals who are challenged mentally. Aborted fetuses will also "burn in Hell."
They conclude:
"GOD ALSO DETESTS RETARDS. DOWN SYNDROME, CEREBAL [sic] PALSY, THALIDOMIDES [sic], DWARFISM, SPINA BIFIDA, AND OTHER CREATURES SPASTIC RETARDATIONS ARE REPULSIVE TO GOD. THE BIBLE STATES QUITE CLEARLY THAT THESE TWISTED LIMBLESS MONSTERS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED ANYWHERE NEAR A CHURCH, AS THEY ARE UNCLEAN AND REPULSIVE TO GOD. THEY ARE AN ABOMINATION. THEY HAVE MINDS OF SUCH A REPROBATE NATURE THAT THEY ARE GIVEN TO SEXUALLY GRATIFYING THEMSELVES IN PUBLIC, AND ARE NOTHING MORE THAN SLOBBERING STAMMERING ANIMALS. WHY SHOULD THEY GET THE BEST CARE? GET GRANTS TO BUILD RAMPS FOR THEM? WHEELCHAIRS? PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT? IF GOD DID NOT INTEND THEM TO WALK, LET THEM CRAWL LIKE THE SNAKES THEY ARE."
"GOTHS ARE PROUD OF THEIR SIN, PROUD TO PARADE AROUND LIKE SICK HALLOWEEN FREAK-SHOWS, PROUD TO DEGRADE THEIR BODIES WITH TATTOOS AND PIERCINGS, PROUD TO ENGAGE IN FILTHY SEXUAL PERVERSIONS, AND IN THAT PRIDEFUL STATE THEY CANNOT REPENT - YOU CANNOT REPENT OF SOMETHING YOU'RE PROUD OF. PRIDE IS ONE OF THE 7 ABOMINABLE SINS WHICH ARE HATED BY GOD."
"THE GOTHS' ONLY HOPE IS TO HAVE THE UNAMBIGUOUS TRUTH PREACHED TO THEM, AND PERHAPS GOD WILL SOFTEN THEIR HEARTS AND GRANT THEM REPENTANCE TO DEPART FROM THEIR SIN AND NAME THE NAME OF CHRIST. NOT VERY LIKELY, THOUGH, SINCE GOD HAS GIVEN UP ON THEM. HE HAS ABANDONED THEM. HE SHALL MOCK THEM WHEN THEY SUFFER, AND LAUGH AT THEIR DEMISE. WHEN A GOTH DIES, GOD LAUGHS

[malcolm]

fascinating. unfortunately i skimmed it as i have a short attention-oh! squirrel! nice to know the info though

[sickybuaaaaa]

yep its pretty interesting. pretty dumb too. goth is just a label put on certain group of people for a lack of better expression or just to make something easier to refer to. finding a real "definition" of goth is impossible. then again why would you even want to?

[Donald Rilea]

Funny thing about the white supremacist charge thrown at Goths, is that, given US history and culture, I think you can probably find white supremacists, separatists, and the like, in just about every culture and sub-culture in this country.

It's just that most of them babies don't advertise it in their dress and public conduct, unlike, say, Nazi-Skins and such.

So, I'd say that there maybe is a small sub-culture inside the Goth community that are racists, but, hey, there were and are plenty of metal-heads and the like who can be pretty racist, when given the opportunity.

But, in my experiences with some of the Las Vegas area Goths back in the mid-and late '90's, I can say I never saw any of that shit goin' on with them.

[malcolm]

ive met people other than white who go by the goth title. black goth guys are hot!

[evilstonermonkey]

actually the first part was good in that it made it very clear it was not saying "this is what goth is" and repeatedly emphaized that 'this is what is commonly beleived, and it just isnt true'.

on the other hand, its like having an article that says 'no matter what yous ay the sky isnt green' and only handing it out to members of the latter day church of blue skys. the only people that will read it already know it, and those that dont either wouldnt care or wouldnt believe it.

[malcolm]

you know whats sad? what really fucin got my gstring in a knot last night? i was lookin for pics of one of my favorie singers-the great freddie mercury-"<3 !"
and i came across this pro rightwing christian website that was talkin about the endtimes being real and how freddie was a perfect example of it being as he was bi and died from aids. fuckin boiled my blood to see some(tis may tae a minute-grab a snack)
narrowminded
toothless
inbred retarded
rejected southern baptist
snake sucking
gloryhole goin
squirrel brain eatin
tobaccy spittin
moonshine drinkin
cousin fuckin
pibgbutt breathed country bumpkin fuckhead who got his fuckin title from a box of cracka jacks badmouth one of the greatest fuckin voices of music this century and be all like
"duhr....he deserved it cus he was a sodomite....duhrrrrrr......."
urgh.

[Donald Rilea]

you know whats sad? what really fucin got my gstring in a knot last night? i was lookin for pics of one of my favorie singers-the great freddie mercury-"<3 !"
and i came across this pro rightwing christian website that was talkin about the endtimes being real and how freddie was a perfect example of it being as he was bi and died from aids. fuckin boiled my blood to see some(tis may tae a minute-grab a snack)
narrowminded
toothless
inbred retarded
rejected southern baptist
snake sucking
gloryhole goin
squirrel brain eatin
tobaccy spittin
moonshine drinkin
cousin fuckin
pibgbutt breathed country bumpkin fuckhead who got his fuckin title from a box of cracka jacks badmouth one of the greatest fuckin voices of music this century and be all like
"duhr....he deserved it cus he was a sodomite....duhrrrrrr......."
urgh.

Not to worry, Old Son. Bit o' ventin' every now and then never hurt anybody.

As for the whole hillbilly thingy in your rant, well, my maternal half of the family comes from West Virginia-Southeastern Ohio, but I don't recollect any of we 'uns ever doin' those things.

Figger the son of a bitch must be one of those Ozarks assholes, or maybe some Southern Californy-type suburban creep with more money and teeth than brains.

Was never a big Freddie Mercury or Queen fan, but, and I know absolutely nothing about Freddie Mercury's life, as far as I know, he never went out of his way to harm others.

So, what that preacher said on his site is just so much doodly-shit, spewed out by someone who will never have a tenth or even a thousandth of the impact that Mr. Mercury and Queen did on people's lives.

Let him ROT in his own insignificance, and his own ignorance of just how insignificant he is.

After all, the very worst kind of con-artist is one who believes his or her own con.

Hope this helps you feel even just a teeny bit better, Malcolm.

[sunkarma]

What people cannot understand- or attempt to control- they label- and then they turn that label into hate to justify their own insecurities.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

I found these...

PROBLEMS ONLY GOTHS HAVE

Trying to get blacks that match after they fade in the wash (damn blue/black and brown/black)

Trying to convince the drunk frat boy who is hitting on you that really are a guy.

Big hair, small cars. (This goes right along with big hats and big skirts).

Airport metal detectors..."Hang on, just let me unbuckle my boots...”

The "Shoes, then corset" dilemma.

Having your little sister nick your make-up.

Living with a slightly homophobic father.

Going to a school which nicknames you "that gay devil worshipping freak that dyed his hair purple".

Getting your jewelry tangled in your clothes/hair (or, even worse, getting them tangled in the clothes/hair of someone else)

People ask "what's so funny and what prescription are you on?"

When your pointy toe shoes/boots get caught in the holes in the hem of your skirt.

Wearing a black turtleneck when it's 90 degrees outside.

Accidentally removing someone's nose with your spiky bracelet while dancing to Nemesis.

Getting people to look you in the eyes when you talk to them.

Getting your slave bracelet caught in your fishnets.

Unconsciously staring and having people try to look you in the eye to get your attention -- which doesn't always work.

People declaring that your eyes are yellow, when, in fact, they are green.

Having to reach for the salt with one hand while holding back your sleeve with the other so it doesn't drag in the gravy.

Trying to find your possessions in an all black room.

Finding your coat in the pile on the bed after a party.

Trying to get the hair-dye stains out of your towels / sink / floors / doors / ceilings / carpets / pets / furniture.

Being asked to defend your entire existence in 30 seconds or less.

Finding a detergent to get those blacks blacker.

Thoroughly embarrassing yourself by finding that fog makes you so bouncy you have to sing along to your walkman, before you realize that fog also means that you can't see the people nearby.

Having little kids tug on their parent's arm and say, "Look, Mommy, isn't she pretty? I want to look like her!" while the parents grab the child and leg it.

Trying to wash dishes with those flowy sleeves.

Having someone try to pick you up, just so they can tell their friends they've had sex with you.

Going out in the winter and having all the metal stuff you are wearing freeze against your exposed skin.

Returning home the next day after clubbing, on a train full of businessmen.

Getting your skirt caught on:
...the buckles of your boots when you are walking up stairs
...part of the seat-adjustment-thingamie in the car
...your heels while walking.
...the outside of the door of your car while you're driving, and you don't notice till you get where you were going, only to find when you get there that a portion of your outfit is now caked with road slime.

Lending your eyeliner to a friend and finding out later that he's returned it without mentioning that he completely emptied the entire brand new tube.

Trying to buy mundane clothes to go job hunting in and not being able to bring yourself to buy anything with enough colour.

The salt stains on the hems of skirts in winter.

Not being able to climb really small stairs because the pointy toes on your pixie boots stick out past your toes enough that you can't get your actual toes on the steps.

Trying to stand up and getting the hooks on your left boot caught in the fishnets on your right leg. And managing to look graceful while extricating yourself.

Dancing in a corset.

Attempting to explain Goth to someone who has no familiarity with any reference you manage to come up with.

Driving in a rather large cloak.

Getting other peoples black eyeliner smudges on your face from greeting hugs at the club.

Having to wash black lipstick off of your neck.

Wearing 24 rings and getting them all stuck in various bits of lace and fishnet (not all of it yours).

Having to rush out of bed the moment you wake up just so you can get to the bank / store / whatever before it closes.

Convincing someone that you are straight even though you are wearing a skirt and makeup.

Convincing your sister to let you use her makeup because you are too broke/cheap to buy your own.

Trying to find women's clothes that fit you without it looking too obvious that that is what you are trying to do.

Wearing that ultra-cool pewter cross you just bought to the club spinning around and knocking yourself silly...then trying to cover your dizziness and nonchalantly checking your forehead for blood while still dancing.

Finding that your freshly washed black t-shirt is covered in bits of lint, which while undetectable by the naked eye, show up very well under UV, thereby making you appear to have terminal dandruff.

Waking up at with the most painful hangover ever. Walking to the little store to get aspirin, thinking "Damn even my feet hurt like hell". Then realizing that your wearing someone else's Doc's.

After using your black eyeliner pencil as a lip liner and getting lipstick on it, coming back and fixing your eyeliner w/ the same pencil, thus creating a big black oily smudge where a nice angled black line should be.

Trying to find food you can eat without messing up your lipstick. French fries are good for that.

Having to tell your clothes apart by fabric only, basically: "Bring me that black shirt." "Uh, which black shirt?"

Trying to get seated so that the eye that you did just right will be the one facing outward.

Wanting to go and play out in the rain but fearing it'll ruin your hair.

Being unable to decide which rings look best over the black lace gloves.

Fearing your sharply filed nails will ruin your mesh shirt!

Realizing your next cat better have black fur, as it's getting trying ripping off the fur from all of your clothes with scotch tape.

Finding that your cape gets in the way of your cleaning tools when going to work at the graveyard.

Getting a sunburn right through your t-shirt due to the fact that you are very pale from not seeing much daylight (prefer to stay up at night and sleep during day).

Trying to ride a bicycle with a long black skirt (or, even worse, a chiffon skirt-preferably one of those “shredded"-style ones)

Trying to ride a bicycle without reminding the people you pass of Miss Almira Gulch, forcing them to hum the wicked witch theme from The Wizard of Oz.

Trying to type with your lace gloves on.

Religion: while everybody still thinks you are a Devil-worshipper despite all your explanations... especially if you tell them you are Pagan...
Other Pagans/Wiccans don't take you seriously because of what you look like. (In the end, nobody really understands)

In school... how can one draw and draw and draw in one's sketchbook at boring lectures without attracting the teacher's attention with one's jingling bracelets... (It's a very scary situation when you notice suddenly that it's the only sound in the whole classroom and the teach stares at you with a look that will guarantee you not to pass the course...)

To like some Goth metal bands and not to be confused with the "ordinary" (especially Blackmetal) metal fans, who tend to be about 100 times dumber than the average Goths?

To keep your white makeup on at gigs, hot summer festivals etc.

Not noticing that you might have fresh black/dark stains on your clothes until they mess up everything non-black around you.

For girls: menstrual blood doesn't show that well on black panties, so you might not notice your period's began before it's too late!

Accidentally kicking things and having parts fly off because you're wearing steel toes boots.

Brushing against walls and having chips fly off because of your spiked bracelet.

Needing to be specially dodged in group photos with normals so you can all be seen clearly.

Waking up late for that Sunday gig, and having to finish dressing up at the subway, trying to put on your 20 hole Doc's while running up the stairs and getting your fishnet/skirt caught on the seat or door.

Having to avoid potential self-mutilation after just finishing filing one's nails to a point.

Freezing your toes in your steel cap shoes in the winter.

When it's cold, your nose will be red no matter how much make-up you have on.

Trying to explain to people that the scars up and down your arms are actually from your cat.

The extensive hair loss caused from bleaching and re-bleaching hair.

Trying to find a soap that will remove the purple hair dye stains from your hands and face.

Flicking trough a magazine or a newspaper with velvet gloves on.

(For net-Goths only) Trying to tell someone that you admire their footwear without making it sound like a come-on.