Copycats

[Amelia G]

Say a model shoots with Photographer A and Photographer A has a creative concept for shooting the model. What do people think about the model suggesting to Photographer B that they do another shoot with the same model using Photographer A's concept?

I found out today that one of my models did that. On the other hand, odds are good that the shots Forrest and I did look better. I just work really hard to do original work and it sort of ticks me off. Not sure if it should, given that our work always comes across stronger than copycats'.

Opinions?

[Tequila Zaire]

Well I would make an example of the model and never work with her again...may seem a bit severe but that's in bad taste to blatently steal another persons idea. I'm sure the idea will lack the creative execution you and forrest always pull off...but I would not let the gal get away with what is essentially theft.

[Hypnotic Vampire]

Flat-out rip-offs never work, because the people doing them haven't 'arrived' at the idea in the same way as the original creator, hence they are invariably always pale pastiches of the original idea.

I have to agree with Tequila Zaire...bad etiquette on the model's part too.

[MistressJennifer]

Take her pictures and photo shop the head of a cat on it, and write "Copycat" under it!!!!!

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, I also agree with Tequila. That the photographer agreed in copying someone else's technique is wrong, but if the idea was the model's, she should be beaten with a splintered stick. In the ass.

... yeah, and make a shoot out of that.

[Amelia G]

Wow, I thought I was overreacting, but maybe I've been underreacting.

[Ouroboros]

Don't you just hate when that happens?
Also, don't you just hate how that sounds?

... oy! That was silly.

[Drakken]

Say a model shoots with Photographer A and Photographer A has a creative concept for shooting the model. What do people think about the model suggesting to Photographer B that they do another shoot with the same model using Photographer A's concept?

I found out today that one of my models did that. On the other hand, odds are good that the shots Forrest and I did look better. I just work really hard to do original work and it sort of ticks me off. Not sure if it should, given that our work always comes across stronger than copycats'.

Opinions?

Most of yours and Forrests works are published. (I'd actually wager that ALL is published.) If another photog takes a concept you've used before isn't that actionable? I'm not certain about copywrite and photos.. but same model? same concept? different photog? Get yours out first and than bitch slap 'em both!

(I'm very much with Tequila on this one)

[Jax]

Say a model shoots with Photographer A and Photographer A has a creative concept for shooting the model. What do people think about the model suggesting to Photographer B that they do another shoot with the same model using Photographer A's concept?

I found out today that one of my models did that. On the other hand, odds are good that the shots Forrest and I did look better. I just work really hard to do original work and it sort of ticks me off. Not sure if it should, given that our work always comes across stronger than copycats'.

Opinions?

Get rid of the model! Thats just screwed up. If they want your style of work, they go to you, if not, go somewhere else. They are abusing the privelidge of shooting with multiple photographers.

[purplepixie]

yeah i also agree with tequila zaire being as it was the model that stole your concept not the photographer you should disgrace her

[Nightingale]

I concur with the general concensus of opinion here. Of course, it is also a little bit ego boosting to know that what you've done is so good that someone wishes to copy it - always assuming that the copy is good enough for others to ask where the idea came from.

[LrdSatanas]

make an example so that other models know not to do it again. in buessness you haft to cut some necks to show you mean buessness. tons of girls want to be a model and the few who are should fell privlaged to do so. and its ur job to remind them of that

[Kidthorazine]

or you could just kill them all with a dull rusty swiss army knife

[funkatron]

Sometimes it might be necessary to just take the person aside and explain why it's not cool -- even though it's obvious to us, some people are kind of naive about certain things. Hell, I know I've blundered into plenty stupid errors of judgement, and I value the people who explained to me what was wrong with what I did without embarassing me.

OTOH, you know the person much better than we do, and it may be the case that he or she knows damn well that it's not cool, and just ignored basic ettiquette. In that case, I would simply not work with them again.

At the risk of getting off-topic: I disagree, though, with Jax's notion that "they are abusing the privelidge of shooting with multiple photographers." If the model isn't under contract, he or she has every right to work with whomever he or she likes. It's no more a priviledge than my ability to work with multiple clients as a contractor.

[Amelia G]

Wow, I just found out that it was a different photographer who shot the photos from who I assumed. Someone who is pretty equally on my jock but maybe mildly less irritating than my initial assumption. This is a photographer who was helped shopping for lights and taught how to pose girls by another one of our models.

In this particular instance, the thing that really puts a bee in my bonnet is that the model in question asked me and Forrest to draw her a map to the location when we were shooting. When we did not immediately attempt to display our cartography skills, she blurted out that she was specifically never going to tell certain people about the location. Even though we sure had not asked her if she was. Of course, these are the exact same people she turned around and directed to it.

So, not only was it bad etiquette for a model to do this in general, but she specifically brought up at the time that she would "never" do exactly what she did.

[funkatron]

Wow, what a crazy whore. Kill her.

[Kidthorazine]

Wow, what a crazy whore. Kill her.

...with a dull rusty swiss army knife...

[CPRB]

I agree with tequila, I just got back form Quebec City and had and iteresting time I will sometime go into the women of quebec and thier amazing sense of independet fashion. ANyhow I decide to check a skateboard shop and see what the skater of quebec are rawking. THERE..that board....I think oh oh..ohhhhh my I know thatgraphic it was an example of an illustration Idid for a Quebec skateboard/snowboard distributor....I did the graphic just to show what i could do I got the idea nd basic design layout form a russina propeganda site .....how do I feel angry as hell and sad it was when ididn't think about having copies of my artwork on disk and maybe an original hardcopy and make second "client" copy...but I aso think hey if they liked to put on a board cool....anyhow I think if that is the case amelia, I would suggest telling her that her time at blueblodd was greatly appreciated but she has commited no no and her ability to use you and forrest for shoots is over...and that's that.....I am sorry it happened....I wish i could send you choclate to cheer ya up champ

[Morning Glory]

ah, amelia. It's sad to see that you're still clinging to intellectual possesiveness. There's nothing new under the sun, it's all been done before. and anything that's percived as new, is merely a new slant on an old ideas that ahve influenced us, even if unconsciously. Let it go, and appreciate your art for it's TRUE unique beauty, that is what you bring to it. they'll do it "thier" way, but if they seek to do it "your" way know it's only because they couldn't do it on thier own, and without your insights. There are many imitations but they are only a style, they lack your substance, and everyone can tell that.

[Jax]

At the risk of getting off-topic: I disagree, though, with Jax's notion that "they are abusing the privelidge of shooting with multiple photographers." If the model isn't under contract, he or she has every right to work with whomever he or she likes. It's no more a priviledge than my ability to work with multiple clients as a contractor.

They most certainly are abusing a privelidge, if they are stealing ideas and concepts from one photographer and giving it to another. This is WHY photographers make contracts, just so this sort of thing doesnt happen!

[Hypnotic Vampire]

ah, amelia. It's sad to see that you're still clinging to intellectual possesiveness. There's nothing new under the sun, it's all been done before. and anything that's percived as new, is merely a new slant on an old ideas that ahve influenced us, even if unconsciously. Let it go, and appreciate your art for it's TRUE unique beauty, that is what you bring to it. they'll do it "thier" way, but if they seek to do it "your" way know it's only because they couldn't do it on thier own, and without your insights. There are many imitations but they are only a style, they lack your substance, and everyone can tell that.

Whilst I agree with the notion that there is nothing new under the sun, and that all 'new' ideas are merely extensions, extrapolations, re-interpretations or updates of pre-existing ideas, I still think that there is a modicum of creativity required to 'see' where to take those ideas or how to reshape or repackage them for contemporary tastes.

Now, what artistic value or lack thereof you attribute to this ability is a matter of personal taste, but I think the case Amelia draws attention to is completely different...the example of the map being the final nail in the coffin.

No doubt the location in question is great, but if you were a photographer with any kind of aspirations of being taken seriously, would you want to use it with the possibility that Amelia and Forrest had already shot the hell out of it and it would soon be pretty overexposed...i.e. 'old news' when clients and editors are looking for something fresh and new, something they (and their readers/customers) have never seen before. Surely you would want to find your own location to shoot...you never know, you might find one that's ten or a hundred times better than the one Amelia and Forrest have picked.

But, no, instead you try and get the same one...that speaks volumes on the depth of that photographer's lack of creativity. If you copy everything Amelia and Forrest do, be it equipment, models, poses, locations, themes and ideas, you might knock out some good stuff....but you'll still just be the little league version of Forrest and Amelia.

Maybe that's all they aspire to be, but whilst it's entirely possible that one day they could surpass Forrest and Amelia, it's a stone cold certainty that they won't if they just satisfy themselves with imitating them.

As for the model in question, whereas before I said it was simply bad etiquette on her part, the situation with the map does tend to imply complicity with the photographer. Personally, I'd cut her out of the loop....with a dull rusty Swiss Army knife !

[corachaos]

Wow, I just found out that it was a different photographer who shot the photos from who I assumed. Someone who is pretty equally on my jock but maybe mildly less irritating than my initial assumption. This is a photographer who was helped shopping for lights and taught how to pose girls by another one of our models.

In this particular instance, the thing that really puts a bee in my bonnet is that the model in question asked me and Forrest to draw her a map to the location when we were shooting. When we did not immediately attempt to display our cartography skills, she blurted out that she was specifically never going to tell certain people about the location. Even though we sure had not asked her if she was. Of course, these are the exact same people she turned around and directed to it.

So, not only was it bad etiquette for a model to do this in general, but she specifically brought up at the time that she would "never" do exactly what she did.

This is clearly a case of her ripping you off, and further or her planning and executing the rip off. I would not work with her again. Depending on just how bitter I was, I might take her shots off my site too. It's tacky.

[pelelaka]

i agree with the "not working with her again" opinion. this has obviously caused you a lot of stress and as a photographer you just don't need extra stress. cut her off, tell her specifically why she's being cut off, and then forget about the whole thing so that it doesn't block your creativity. let us know how you handle the situation. good luck!

[funkatron]

They most certainly are abusing a privelidge, if they are stealing ideas and concepts from one photographer and giving it to another. This is WHY photographers make contracts, just so this sort of thing doesnt happen!

No, you misunderstand. My point is not that they weren't doing anything wrong -- clearly they were. I was disagreeing with your statement that working with multiple photographers is, in and of itself, a privilege. Again, to quote you:

"they are abusing the privelidge of shooting with multiple photographers."

I don't think it's a privilege. It's a right any model has, unless they've signed a contract to the contrary. That doesn't make what they did less shitty, but I think it's important to not imply that models should feel privileged to not be tied to one photographer (or web site....)

[Nightingale]

Funnily enough, the line seems to have been discontiued. http://eshop.msn.com/fts/ftsresults....hType=1&fcId=9

[Jax]

No, you misunderstand. My point is not that they weren't doing anything wrong -- clearly they were. I was disagreeing with your statement that working with multiple photographers is, in and of itself, a privilege. Again, to quote you:

"they are abusing the privelidge of shooting with multiple photographers."

I don't think it's a privilege. It's a right any model has, unless they've signed a contract to the contrary. That doesn't make what they did less shitty, but I think it's important to not imply that models should feel privileged to not be tied to one photographer (or web site....)

I guess we just have different views on it. I model for many different people, and ALWAYS feel its a privilege, not a right. Thats just me though;]

[funkatron]

I guess we just have different views on it. I model for many different people, and ALWAYS feel its a privilege, not a right. Thats just me though;]

I think I can dig what you're saying. It's certainly a privilege to work with talented, respectful pros like our own AG and FB. I guess I'm just coming at it from a different angle, having known people who were given shit/made outcasts for working with multiple sites or photographers.

Nice to have a disagreement on a message board resolve amicably, I must say. 8)

[Piercer Dude]

Orginality is prime, imitation is a form of flattery,
but flat-out rip-offs?
that is the suq!

[Morning Glory]

yes, it is best that you let her go. her worst crime is not stealing your idea for a shoot, but to propose that idea to someone else, and worst of all, condem herself to unoriginality.

[Szandora]

You know I'd let her ass go. I don't know who this girl is and maybe I know her and like her... but. I cannot stand copy cats. Especially if you've done something with one photographer, really why would you go and do the samething for another? That's when it's only about the money and not the creativity. That just sucks. Sorry A. -- Just think though... This weekend we are gonna do some fun shoots and stuff! oh yea! and we're gonna have FUN! whooo!

1 more day! whooooo!

[funkatron]

"stuff"

[sadiesucks]

Idea rip offs make me angry. I can understand having similiar inclinations, ideas, etc., but plagairism is another thing entirely.