Free Speech has it's Limits

[Buster Friendly]

it's about time someone taught these punk kids today that no one owes them any answers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/...tudent_tasered

if a U.S. Senator can't be bothered with answering a deviant hooligan's disrespectful questions than i guess the police will have to show him where his constitutional rights end, and his right to remain silent begins.

[One Eyed Cat]

it's about time someone taught these punk kids today that no one owes them any answers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/...tudent_tasered

if a U.S. Senator can't be bothered with answering a deviant hooligan's disrespectful questions than i guess the police will have to show him where his constitutional rights end, and his right to remain silent begins.

I'm kind of amazed they try to portray these sorts of incidents as a "free speech" issue. The only relevant issue would be whether the police had followed proper procedures in "tasering" the suspect. The 1st Amendment is not at issue here. Freedom of speech does not imply the virtual right to an audience in what I doubt would qualify as a "public forum". Time allotments were set in advance.

The only question would be police conduct: 2 were put on leave. The kid acted in an absurd manner. Still, even imbeciles have constitutional rights.

JT

[Buster Friendly]

asking questions, and being a jerk about mic time doesn't necessarily equal acting in an 'absurd' manner, especially in an acedemic/colliget setting.

now if he'd been asking kerry if he had sex with mules, and then proceeded to demand that the senator buy him a pony, that might have been a bit off.

even so, going from 'hey buddy, times up, we're going to cut the mic here.' to "ON THE GROUND DIRTBAG!!' is a bit of a stretch.

personally, if i were this kid, his parents, or a student at that school, i'd be talking lawsuit, and backing it up with the kind of lawyers that make school administrators piss themselves in bed at night, just so that i got my point across. "hey, you don't want us asking akward questions at open forums? fine. i don't want campus security, or the police kicking in my ribs for sneezing out of turn."

but then again i'm just kind of funny that way.

[One Eyed Cat]

asking questions, and being a jerk about mic time doesn't necessarily equal acting in an 'absurd' manner, especially in an acedemic/colliget setting.

now if he'd been asking kerry if he had sex with mules, and then proceeded to demand that the senator buy him a pony, that might have been a bit off.

even so, going from 'hey buddy, times up, we're going to cut the mic here.' to "ON THE GROUND DIRTBAG!!' is a bit of a stretch.

personally, if i were this kid, his parents, or a student at that school, i'd be talking lawsuit, and backing it up with the kind of lawyers that make school administrators piss themselves in bed at night, just so that i got my point across. "hey, you don't want us asking akward questions at open forums? fine. i don't want campus security, or the police kicking in my ribs for sneezing out of turn."

but then again i'm just kind of funny that way.

His conduct after the mic was shut off seemed absurd to me. He made, at the very least, a case for resisting arrest easy to prove. Let them arrest you, sue later. I like winning There will be a suit, but the kid's conduct on video weakens the case. FTR: Kerry did answer the question after telling the crowd to settle down. Unfortunately for the kid, he had some voltage him by that time.

JT

[Mr Karl]

looks like he got off easy to me

[One Eyed Cat]

looks like he got off easy to me

haha. Nah. That many officers should be able to subdue a guy like that without tasering him. Still, it will come down to whether he was in cuffs when his "bro" "tased" him. He was being removed at the request of the event's sponsors.

JT

[VoldtaEngler]

Damn kids and their emo rock music. And beer 101.

[Mr Karl]

what I saw was a guy spazzing out, no matter how many people were holding him down as soon as they let go he would have been jumping around again,

so, give him a little zap so he doesn't hurt something as he's being removed from the room, it is pretty harmless, unless somethings wrong with you in which case you really should know better

[One Eyed Cat]

what I saw was a guy spazzing out, no matter how many people were holding him down as soon as they let go he would have been jumping around again,

so, give him a little zap so he doesn't hurt something as he's being removed from the room, it is pretty harmless, unless somethings wrong with you in which case you really should know better

I saw the same thing. The only relevant points would be whether he had already been cuffed and what the procedures for tasering were under the circumstances. All else is an appeal to pathos. The 1st Amendment is simply not an issue here.

JT

[Mr Karl]

it must be hard to resist the urge to taser someone

[One Eyed Cat]

Damn kids and their emo rock music. And beer 101.

What's sad is: It just cheapens the concept of civil disobedience. Say your peace, let them cuff you, then sue. Don't squawk like a chickenhead. These kids are a nuisance to any "cause" they take up in that manner. O'Reilly will love this guy.

JT

[Buster Friendly]

oh, it is...

...still all they accomplished was drawing more attention to this dork, who got his video on MoooToob. couldn't have worked out better for him if they'd tried.

if they'd let kerry handle him we'd never have heard about this.

[Donald Rilea]

Saw several videos of this incident on YouTube to-day, and, for my money, Meyer(the student being tasered)was being an over-enthusiastic jack-ass, sure.

Also, some of his conduct after the officers first approached him and tried dragging him out of the auditorium will, as Jackie T points out, hurt his case in court.

But, I personally think that the officers botched the approach and take-down of Mr. Meyer, and tasering him was the last bit of icing on the rotten cake they'd made.

I also agree with Buster. Better to have let Kerry answer his questions, then get him the Hell out of there, as quickly and quietly as possible.

Sometimes, those in positions of power, however great or small, can end up making martyrs out of people, because of bad policies and actions made by the former.

If I could whisper any words of advice into any powerful person's ears, they would be, "Don't martyrise people by over-reacting to what they say and do."

It just ends up creating more trouble and headaches all 'round than necessary.

[ForrestBlack]

Right or wrong is a whole different can of worms to me, but I do think that tactically the officers really blew it. Taking someone who is willfully making that kind of scene down by force in front of the very crowd they are trying to leverage for support is ALWAYS going to go badly. That's kind of the point.

I suspect if one officer walked him out of the room, there would have been little or no reason it would escalate to wolfpack submission and tasers.

Now, I do think it's a bad sign that we've gotten to be so afraid of asking a confrontational or uncomfortable question that it takes this sort of nervous fearful off the rails personality to even have the audacity to bring it up. You kind of knew what was going to happen as soon as he opened his mouth. I'm disappointed that we've gotten to a point where we're seen as recklessly stupid if we're not paralyzed by the fear of being beaten up by authorities for confronting them, rightly or wrongly. Clearly we're living in a time where some accountability would do us some good, and I think that the people involved should have understood the importance of handling that better.

[One Eyed Cat]

Right or wrong is a whole different can of worms to me, but I do think that tactically the officers really blew it. Taking someone who is willfully making that kind of scene down by force in front of the very crowd they are trying to leverage for support is ALWAYS going to go badly. That's kind of the point.

I suspect if one officer walked him out of the room, there would have been little or no reason it would escalate to wolfpack submission and tasers.

Now, I do think it's a bad sign that we've gotten to be so afraid of asking a confrontational or uncomfortable question that it takes this sort of nervous fearful off the rails personality to even have the audacity to bring it up. You kind of knew what was going to happen as soon as he opened his mouth. I'm disappointed that we've gotten to a point where we're seen as recklessly stupid if we're not paralyzed by the fear of being beaten up by authorities for confronting them, rightly or wrongly. Clearly we're living in a time where some accountability would do us some good, and I think that the people involved should have understood the importance of handling that better.

You really think we've gotten to that point? Personally? If I believed a question were important enough, I would have no fear of being arrested for it. I would put down the mic, surrender, then appeal to the public. Honestly though? I could have asked the same questions and probably not been arrested. Police misconduct does look likely. The kid's ability to perform an act of civil disobedience was simply non-existent.

JT

[ForrestBlack]

I certainly think the question could have been reasonably raised without hijacking the whole presentation. Schools pay a lot to have speakers like that and they shouldn't have random selfish people grandstanding in such a way as to devalue the overall presentation. I think he would have done better to respect the time of the presenter and the sort of decorum of the occasion, while still posing what at it's core might have been a perfectly reasonable question. He certainly would have been a lot more likely to get a perfectly reasonable response.

[Velvet-Tongue]

*Kudos to Forrest: Exactly. He could have asked all his questions without being a dick and got his point across just aswell.

So a guy there to cause a scene starts yelling and acting hysterical. The Campus police who's job it is to protect the other students and the speaker try to escort him away.

Guy decides this is the perfect time for MARTYR SYNDROME and begisn to yell hysterically and act like a complete attention whore. Police officers ar ethen forced to arrest him. He is asked multiple times by the officers to stop resisiting arrest. He decides to not listen and to act like more of a jackass.

To avoid possible long term injuries to the guy or to avoid having to empty the building (mace) they taser him to get him into cuffs.

The cops did exactly what their job entails. They had the right to remove him, he did not have the right to resist. Their grounds; their rules.

Complete drama whoring of the guy makes me lose all mercy for him. What a fucker.

The people yelling "POLICE STATEEE" "FREEDOM OF SPEECH ATTACKKED" have apparently never watched the Tanks roll into the university students in China or see the national guard killings here in the US. A jackass being tazered for being a jackass is not an attack on freespeech, but an upholding of laws created by people WE voted in.

[One Eyed Cat]

I certainly think the question could have been reasonably raised without hijacking the whole presentation. Schools pay a lot to have speakers like that and they shouldn't have random selfish people grandstanding in such a way as to devalue the overall presentation. I think he would have done better to respect the time of the presenter and the sort of decorum of the occasion, while still posing what at it's core might have been a perfectly reasonable question. He certainly would have been a lot more likely to get a perfectly reasonable response.

Agree. The police misconduct issue is obviously important, but a school-sponsored forum can be subject to some basic ground rules. Kerry has really never shied away from the Ohio controversy to date.

JT

[ForrestBlack]

*Kudos to Forrest

Thank you

The cops did exactly what their job entails...

See, here is where my perspective differs a little. I actually think they were being attention whores as well, and it not only prevented them from doing an effective job of minimizing disruption during the lecture, it actually hurt the reputation of the speaker in too many people's eyes. There was no need for the officers to make such a spectacle. One officer could have walked him out and locked him out. But, instead, they had to show off their strength and overwhelm the guy in front of everybody and that was just a really poor move. So, I guess I'm saying I don't think they really did exactly what their job entails.

[GnArKiLL]

he can act like a big tough guy when hes asking his questions, but he sure cries like a bitch when hes getting tasered.

[One Eyed Cat]

See, here is where my perspective differs a little. I actually think they were being attention whores as well, and it not only prevented them from doing an effective job of minimizing disruption during the lecture, it actually hurt the reputation of the speaker in too many people's eyes. There was no need for the officers to make such a spectacle. One officer could have walked him out and locked him out. But, instead, they had to show off their strength and overwhelm the guy in front of everybody and that was just a really poor move. So, I guess I'm saying I don't think they really did exactly what their job entails.

Two were placed on administrative leave (pending an investigation). It's hard to gauge what threat the police perceived from their vantage point. The kid did not present himself well. I think they probably could have walked him out, but I could see where they perceived an actual threat. It will probably come down to what actually happened just prior to the kid being tasered. I can't tell if he had been cuffed or restrained. Needless to say, you had so many cops on him tasering seemed a bit excessive. The kid's panicky behavior would be the one mitigating factor. That was just odd.

JT

[Mainline_Iodine]

Okay, just read the article and watched the video.
He is being a little bit of a jackass, but not enough to involve the police.
He wasn't that big of a guy that they needed that many police officers plus a taser to subdue him.
Finally, the article says that the forum sponsors say that they didn't ask for the police involvement.

[Exquisite]

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[One Eyed Cat]

Okay, just read the article and watched the video.
He is being a little bit of a jackass, but not enough to involve the police.
He wasn't that big of a guy that they needed that many police officers plus a taser to subdue him.
Finally, the article says that the forum sponsors say that they didn't ask for the police involvement.

Do you have a link to the quote by the forum sponsors? That's not what I was reading early on. It changes nothing in a legal sense, but would help the kid if he pursues a suit (as does 2 officers being placed on leave)

I'm getting all sorts of conflicting stories. One has the kid speaking to the Lewinsky incident. Weird shit.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

If they came for me, I'd go out kozak style. They can scrape me off the wall

JT

[Pyre]

they said down, he said no. i see no problem with free speech, i saw no duct tape or staples either, hell fry him again. and to me it didn't look like they got anything on his hands. he should have stayed down the first three times, maybe now he will learn to think before he gets a cute notion to be an idiot.

[Morning Glory]

to "resist arrest" implies that you are being arrested. what crime did this guy commit? it's not against the law to be an obnoxious jerk.

[Morning Glory]

also kerry gets to talk for three hours, but this guy doesn't get to rant for five minutes. how can anyone say that it's not a free speach issue? everyone has the right to free speach. the law doesn't dictate whose speach is more important or worthy of listening to. the only legal reason that someone can't say whatever the fuck they want to whenever they want to is if thier speach is a threat to public safety or if it is expressing intent to commite a crime. this guy didn't do that. they had no right to remove him.

Now, I don't expect to have to listen to what every single person has to say, but if I don't want to, then I have the right to walk away. If you don't want people calling you out for what you are saying, then don't give a speach in a public forum. It's as simple as that. If we operated like these guys in this incident on this board, then there wouldn't be any members here. we'd all be fucking tazored. But most of us can recognize that not everyone in the world agrees with us, we have our say, we let them have thier say, and we don't call the cops.