With all the bickering and finger I never thought this plan would actually go through. Still scares me that the government will now own a good chunk of the financial market. Now to see if this will all spiral into anarchy.
I can't help but find dark humor in this. As Russia becomes us, we become Russia. The 17 year plan has come to fruition. I'll have to read some Bakunin now.Originally Posted by a_small_death
OEC
Pence is a Conservative Republican. I disagree with him on a lot of issues. I think he hit the nail on the head with this though:
From Congressman Pence's Office
WASHINGTON, DC – U.S. Congressman Mike Pence sent the following letter to his colleagues today in opposition to the deal struck last night on the bailout of the financial services sector:
Dear Colleagues:
Our nation has been confronted by a serious crisis in our financial markets. The President and this Congress were right to act with all deliberate speed in addressing this crisis.
We now have a deal that promises to bring near-term stability to our financial turmoil, but at what price?
Economic freedom means the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail.
The decision to give the federal government the ability to nationalize almost every bad mortgage in America interrupts this basic truth of our free market economy.
Republicans improved this bill but it remains the largest corporate bailout in American history, forever changes the relationship between government and the financial sector, and passes the cost along to the American people. I cannot support it.
Before you vote, ask yourself why you came here and vote with courage and integrity to those principals.
If you came here because you believe in limited government and the freedom of the American marketplace, vote in accordance with those convictions.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.
We have fought the good fight. Now we need to finish the race and make sure that posterity and the American people know there were conservatives who opposed the leviathan state in this dark hour.
And if you do this I promise you, I will stand with you and, I believe with all my heart, the American people will stand with you as well.
MIKE PENCE
amazing how easy things like this are to get done
Originally Posted by One Eyed Cat
I feel like the Irony Police need to get to work making arrests.
And I was already bummed out today.
Well, better to get the initial shock over with. What amazes me: I heard a lot of common sense opposition from conservatives, progressives, and others that at least try to act out of some semblance of their vision of the common good.Originally Posted by Amelia G
I was just thinking to myself: What moral effect does this have? How do I tell someone: Dude, pay your debt .... only the corpocracy gets to socialize their risks and shit?
OEC
As someone who didn't buy a house when the housing market was stupid hyped, I'd have to say I'm beyond pissed about all this. I feel like people like me were the ONLY responsible ones in this whole equation and I'm furious to have to have any part in a cleanup. I'm not getting 'bailed out' of squat. I make a bad investment and I fucking lose. That's it. Clear as day. You simply can not justify socializing the losses. There is no excuse. The Fed should have VERY LITTLE hand in the free market. It was government protectionism spoiling the natural balance of capitalism that led to this mess in the first place and now they want more interventionism instead of less.
yep, it is a fucked-up system.................
Socialized risk + privatized profit for the "elite". I can't vote for either of those clowns now. They *both* supported it.Originally Posted by ForrestBlack
OEC
I'm just trying to imagine playing monopoly where some players investments are backed by a guarantee that says the other players cover their losses and over extensions. It's simply not a fair game.
It's disguisting. I don't really know what to say or do. I have to look after my family first and foremost. They don't need any bailouts. They do need a stable dollar and insured savings. Beyond that, something just ended.Originally Posted by ForrestBlack
OEC
Mission accomplished. JP Morgan Chase bought WaMu for cents on the dollar, get the income from the mortgages and credit cards, and tell the investors to go to hell.
That sounds better to me than this shit. I had hoped they'd just recapitalize these fucks and let them deal with the bad paper. Not that even that is fair, but it beats this. We'll see what the next "5 year plan" brings.Originally Posted by Bikerpunk
OEC
Well, do keep in mind that the deal purchases these assets from the banks at the highest prices these securities reached. Not at market value.
That's even worse. They're trying to say they can resell these things. They can't polish these "credit default securities" turds. They shouldn't even exist to begin with.Originally Posted by Bikerpunk
OEC
Conservatives should have revolted at the very suggestion of Government bailing these supposedly capitalist folks out and Liberals should have revolted at the very suggestion that the citizens should have the burden of losses foist upon them. Citizens of a true democracy should have revolted at not having a say in the matter.
Land of the Free, Home of the Brave... failed on both counts today.
Originally Posted by ForrestBlack
Amen.
I've been living as much off the grid as one can possibly in this digital age. I've not done conventional banking for reason of shit hitting the fan like this. I seen people loosing their life savings and these bank CEO's getting off with their millions and leaving their customers high and dry. One women I saw lost 20,000 she had been saving for decades. I guess it's the old saying, "It's a huge shit sandwich and we're gonna have to take a bit".
feel like puking
Mission Accomplished.
What I don't get is that this does not seem to be a blue state/red state thing or whatever way partisan issues are being described this week. Everyone I've seen post about it is totally horrified. How can this have happened if nobody, no matter what their political preferences, agrees with it among the people?
Originally Posted by Amelia G
If a man knocks at your door and asks if you prefer to be shot in the head or the foot, you are still allowed to complain as you limp to the bathroom.
If the deal hadn't gone through, the US, and most of the rest of the world, would be back in the 1920s within a month. Don't matter if you have a mortgage or not, or if some investor is getting 'bailed out' and you're not - it's the same street you'd both be sleeping on.
That would be fine with me. I believe in a hard lesson from time to time. What is this going to teach them? It's just spoiling them and ruining everything we stand for anyway. You kick the man at the door, punch him in the throat, take his gun and beat him to death with it. Even if it goes poorly for you, you didn't lose much you wouldn't have lost anyway and you get to keep your self respect.Originally Posted by Mindgames
I'd like to know just how exactly this is supposed to crash the entire world economy (without the bailout)? If the cost to buy it up is 700 bil, then it stands to make sense that is what the total loss would be just to let it go. So I'm supposed to believe that is enough to collapse the global market, compared to all the other systems that are still running intact (such as oil exchange)? considering that (the US mortgages) is a very small percentage of the total investment in just this country alone, that doesn't make sense to me.
The value of the US accounts is largely irrelevant, as by now we've pretty much established a sub-prime loan package ain't worth jack. What matters is that the world markets are scared to death of uncertainty. They're fine with good news, and mostly fine with bad news, but tell them you're not sure about something and the indexes drop through the basement.
That's what the US did - by telling the world that "without this deal the US economy is basically buttfucked into disaster", the markets kinda believed it. No deal might not mean the US economy would die, but people think it might. The entire world would withdraw their money, and THAT would kill the US economy. New world order, China in charge, bread at $500 a slice, French people laughing.
If you're thinking "screw the world.. we can do without their money.." then take a look at how much of the domestic reserve is made up from foreign investments. China and Saudi Arabia technically own most of what you have in your wallet, and wouldn't be too bothered about asking for it all back.
It means the people have little to no control over the actions of government. This was paradoxically passed with bipartisan support.Originally Posted by Amelia G
OEC
I was thinking more like screw the US, the rest of the world doesn't need our money.
I'm broke as fuck, I can barely afford to eat, I can't afford to own a home, I can't afford to go to the doctor. I don't really see what I have to lose. You're telling me that if the billionares go broke, then we'll all be living in poverty? newsflash: we allready are. they will just be joining the rest of us.
Devaluation of the dollar was not imminent. It would have been stagflation correct? I was ready to take the hit. I don't believe in isolationism either, but I don't think this will work over the long term.Originally Posted by Mindgames
OEC
Deflation rather than stagflation, probably. I agree it's not a great long-term plan, but then again we didn't have a better short-term one, and there's no point predicting how we'll all feel in 2050 if the country can't survive past Xmas. Nobody was proposing devaluation, but I've heard a few analysts who said if the bulk of foreign money actually did pull out, that would be the only option left.
MG - I appreciate many people are already having a harder time than they've experienced, but remember that as a society we're still doing a lot better than we used to. Folks might not have a lot of cash. Many might not be able to afford houses, have jobs, etc. - but the hospitals are open, the water still flows and the army isn't standing outside Walmart to check ration cards. Things could get a whole lot scarier if the slide doesn't stop.
Well you can see how eager they are to "join " us. This is just anothere case of the upper levels doing everything at their disposal to maintain their status quo. I think that in the end oddly enough those of us who are broke as fuck are better off, when the last fail safe doesnt work we will still be able to survive . Consider it training for when the wheels fall off, and practice your scavenging abilities.Originally Posted by Morning Glory
Well holy crap.
The House blocked it 208 to 228.
<-- heads towards secret escape capsule, white cat in tow
Originally Posted by Mindgames
The structure just really seems set up for dependency. The super-rich get to decide how the money is handed out, but they need to take a big slice of it to maintain their lifestyles. The super-lazy and super-unwilling to plan get freebies.
And the people in the middle, the people who are trying to take care of themselves, the people who are willing to work, who just want to be given a chance, who are trying to be responsible for their own needs and wants, they get no security, no house, no expensive medical care, and basically get crushed in between cruel overlords and lazy bums.
This whole thing is really optimism-destroying. I've had good years and bad years, gone hungry some times and eaten lobster others, but I've never felt as pessimistic as I do now.
Sometimes I feel like the system is rigged such that, if you can't manage to get into a high end enough position fast enough, the system is trying to grind you into poverty, like destitution and needing a handout are the equilibrium. I'm a fucking hard worker and a huge optimist, so, if I feel that way, we have a problem.
Originally Posted by Mindgames
And I just wrote that long post. Maybe there is a lil benevolence out there after all.
They did? Wow. They rarely vote without knowing they have passage insured. I don't think the block holds though. They'll throw some populist idiocy into it and it'll pass.Originally Posted by Mindgames
OEC
Let's be very cautiously optimistic. Something must have went down between yesterday and today.Originally Posted by Amelia G
OEC
I gave up hope for America after they elected Bush for a second run. I'm still going to vote, though. I'm just going in not expecting anything. Well, maybe worse. After this bailout? Yeah, no doubt they can do worse. Just not trying hard enough.
Texas asked what'd happen if he asked for a reconsideration, was told it'd be placed straight away and then he retracted it. The Dow's gone insane - lost 540 in the last 20 minutes, and my cat is bothered the escape capsule has no litter tray.
Anyone want some second hand henchmen? Low mileage, one careful owner...
Ladies and gentlemen, the end is here...
Seriously? This is madness. The fucking media. I'm glad it failed .... but indecision makes matters worse. They want to see "we're" doing something. We're in deep shit. Oh well. I'd just like to know what I'm going to be dealing with out there.Originally Posted by Mindgames
OEC
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