Your God Given Rights!

[Morning Glory]

People are talking about these things called "rights"?

Just what the heck are these things?

Sometimes people call them your God given rights. I looked into it, but I couldn't make much sense of that one. God gave Moses a list of commandments, but these were more like things that you aren't allowed to do. It doesn't really say much about the powers of government. In fact, it turns out that the bible was written a couple hundred years before anybody had a constitution, so God's pretty mum on the subject of your rights. Ten Commandments, ten amendments- I think that people are confusing the two, it's a simple mistake to make.

On the document it says "All men... are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." My old man never gave me a list of my rights, he didn't really say jack shit to me. How about you guys, did you ever have a father son talk about your rights? is that the one after "Santa Claus" and "the birds and the bees"? I don't know, that seems like a really inconsistent way to run a country.

The guys who wrote this thing are called the Founding Fathers. Ah, I see. So maybe that's where these whole dad rights come from. But when I think about it, I assume that there were other people around at the time, so it would appear that there is a whole lot of people that aren't even related to them. And what about all the people that immigrated here?

You've heard about the people that fought for your rights. It's true, there was a war fought against England to gain independence for the US. But most of those guys are dead, they weren't around during the creation of the constitution. So who the fuck are these guys that came up with our rights? They didn't fight for them, they weren't even there!

It turns out that your rights are just some shit that a couple people made up. They don't mean anything. There are millions of people in this country today, it seems to me that their opinion is just as valid as those guys, and those guys lived 500 years ago, they don't have any idea what society is like! Why should we listen to what these guys have to say?

Oh you know what? I got it now, I finally figured out where our rights come from and what they are all about. This guy in a uniform pointed his gun at me and said, "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you."

[ForrestBlack]

on a related note...

Under God: It's Time to Update the Pledge by David Waters
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...herty_rip.html

Under God mourns the loss of the minister who persuaded President Eisenhower and Congress in 1954 to insert into the Pledge of Allegiance the phrase "under God" -- an idea whose time was then.

Now, with the passing of the Rev. George M. Docherty, who died Thanksgiving Day at the age of 97, let us review why the phrase was added in the first place and why we should consider updating the pledge.

Docherty's contribution to American civil religion came during a sermon he preached at Washington's New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in honor of Lincoln's birthday in 1954, the height of the Second Red Scare. As Post reporter Matt Shudel notes in Sunday's obituary, Docherty, a native of Scotland, argued that the then-godless American pledge could just as easily apply to the communist Soviet Union.

"I could hear little Muscovites recite a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag with equal solemnity," said Docherty. He suggested adding Lincoln's phrase "under God" from the Gettysburg Address to the pledge. "To omit the words 'Under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance is to omit the definitive character of the American Way of Life."

Maybe then. Not now.

First, it isn't the 1950s anymore. As religion scholar Will Herberg noted in his influential 1955 essay "Protestant-Catholic-Jew," at that time 68 percent of Americans were Protestant, 23 percent Catholic, and 4 percent Jewish. (The remaining 5 percent expressed no religious preference.) "Not to be a Catholic, a Protestant, or a Jew today is, for increasing numbers of American people, not to be anything."

According to a recent Pew report, those figures have declined to 51, 23 and 2. The remaining 20+ percent express plenty of preferences, including Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist and Agnostic. Not to be a Catholic, a Protestant, or a Jew today is, for increasing numbers of American people, to be something else just as worthy of citizenship.

Second, the greatest threat to American freedom is no longer godless communism but "godly" terrorism -- people who pledge their allegiance to God. Docherty noted that even Stalin's Soviet Union could claim to be "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Today, even a Taliban-led Afghanistan could claim to be "one nation, under God."

In his 1954 sermon, Docherty argued that Judeo-Christian America was engaged in "mortal combat against modern, secularized, godless humanity." Today, pluralistic America is engaged in mortal combat against anti-modern, fundamentalist, religionized humanity.

It isn't our belief in God that makes us different. It's our belief in the liberties (religious and other) enshrined in the Constitution. The American creed is faith in liberty for all, not the religion of most.

[Raza]

Generally, the term 'rights' refers in an idealistic sense to the things the speaker's preferred social ethical code says you can have or do. Constitutions, wars and religions just happen to provide a whole lot of unimaginative people with their ethical ideals, in whatever poorly defined fashion they can manage.

The idea is intellectually odd, at the very least. It goes hand in hand with the idea that a perfect system of ethics defining right and wrong (and thereby handing out 'rights') already exists, somehow woven into the fabric of reality or humanity, and that our disagreements over it are about detecting that True Morality rather than inventing new systems and weighting pros and cons. The distinction of course is subtle in practise, but the latter view makes the demand that others adhere to your freshly concocted ethical designs a little less romantic.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

I think Terry Pratchet put it best, "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"

Obviously we do not have any unalienable rights, but the fact that we believe we do makes these rights that men who were not our fathers wrote down years ago harder to remove.

We really only have the rights we believe in and fight for. That's why the Paris Hilton of Texas was able to listen to our phone calls, cause we did not believe we had the right to tell him no.

[Mainline_Iodine]

If you feel that your rights have been taking away, then you have the responsibility to step up and fight to protect those rights. Willing to fight and die in the name of those rights is the only way to protect them. I haven't defined "those rights" for a simple reason, what one feels is important enough to risk everything to protect is a choice that each and every person must make on their own.
The majority of the American population felt that safety, or at least the illusion of safety was more important then one's first amendment rights, or they simply don't care enough to pay attention to what the government is doing until, they themselves are hurt and they feel that the government should have protected them.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

People are talking about these things called "rights"?

Just what the heck are these things?

Sometimes people call them your God given rights. I looked into it, but I couldn't make much sense of that one. God gave Moses a list of commandments, but these were more like things that you aren't allowed to do. It doesn't really say much about the powers of government. In fact, it turns out that the bible was written a couple hundred years before anybody had a constitution, so God's pretty mum on the subject of your rights. Ten Commandments, ten amendments- I think that people are confusing the two, it's a simple mistake to make.

On the document it says "All men... are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." My old man never gave me a list of my rights, he didn't really say jack shit to me. How about you guys, did you ever have a father son talk about your rights? is that the one after "Santa Claus" and "the birds and the bees"? I don't know, that seems like a really inconsistent way to run a country.

The guys who wrote this thing are called the Founding Fathers. Ah, I see. So maybe that's where these whole dad rights come from. But when I think about it, I assume that there were other people around at the time, so it would appear that there is a whole lot of people that aren't even related to them. And what about all the people that immigrated here?

You've heard about the people that fought for your rights. It's true, there was a war fought against England to gain independence for the US. But most of those guys are dead, they weren't around during the creation of the constitution. So who the fuck are these guys that came up with our rights? They didn't fight for them, they weren't even there!

It turns out that your rights are just some shit that a couple people made up. They don't mean anything. There are millions of people in this country today, it seems to me that their opinion is just as valid as those guys, and those guys lived 500 years ago, they don't have any idea what society is like! Why should we listen to what these guys have to say?

Oh you know what? I got it now, I finally figured out where our rights come from and what they are all about. This guy in a uniform pointed his gun at me and said, "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you."

If you really think we have no real rights, take a trip to Little Cuba in Miami and talk to the people who risked their lives to come here. I think they'll tell you you're wrong.

[TheDeathKnight]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

Seem like pretty good "rights" to me.

[Raza]

If you really think we have no real rights, take a trip to Little Cuba in Miami and talk to the people who risked their lives to come here. I think they'll tell you you're wrong.

And crossing the florida straits in a little sailboat at risk of being shot by US border patrols elevates their position on interpersonal ethics above reasonable reproach, does it now?

You should leave the absurd emotive rhetoric to politicians and radio talkshow hosts. It's too easily refuted when you're not the only one with a mic.

[Morning Glory]

good posts guys, I'm really glad that people put some thought into this.

I know that my post was (intentionally) absurdist, but I was serious about discussing where and/or how our values arise and what impact they make on how people think and act today.

Judeo-Christian America was engaged in "mortal combat against modern, secularized, godless humanity."

sorry, I just couldn't resist posting that.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

And crossing the florida straits in a little sailboat at risk of being shot by US border patrols elevates their position on interpersonal ethics above reasonable reproach, does it now?

You should leave the absurd emotive rhetoric to politicians and radio talkshow hosts. It's too easily refuted when you're not the only one with a mic.

First of all, most Cuban refugee deaths occur when the coast guard is not around. Most occur from the shanty boats they are on, capsize and the refugees drown. That would be the "risk" I'm talking about. Not the risk of being shot. In fact, do me a favor and find me an article that even mentions Cuban refugees being shot by the Coast Guard, please.

Cubans risk their lives to flee from a place where they had no rights. Where just posting a rant against their countries government like MG here could of got them thrown in jail and has.

And to tell you the truth, last time I checked, you're not even American and I don't even know if you've ever even been to America so why are you even posting on this thread like this discussion somehow even includes you.

So you can take my absurd emotive rhetoric and shove it up your snobby, fuckin' know-it-all, condescending asshole.

[Mr Karl]

I have the right to work until I fall over dead......................everything else is priviledges that I never take for granted.

That's all I have to say about that

[Vexbeast]

First of all, most Cuban refugee deaths occur when the coast guard is not around. Most occur from the shanty boats they are on, capsize and the refugees drown. That would be the "risk" I'm talking about. Not the risk of being shot. In fact, do me a favor and find me an article that even mentions Cuban refugees being shot by the Coast Guard, please.

Cubans risk their lives to flee from a place where they had no rights. Where just posting a rant against their countries government like MG here could of got them thrown in jail and has.

And to tell you the truth, last time I checked, you're not even American and I don't even know if you've ever even been to America so why are you even posting on this thread like this discussion somehow even includes you.

So you can take my absurd emotive rhetoric and shove it up your snobby, fuckin' know-it-all, condescending asshole.

Yes, I can see where the status of the mob-mentality ethical system of a military super-power is of no importance to the rest of the world.

Ignoring the difference between arguing that we don't have rights, and questioning what those rights are and why the hell they were decided by dead people... Not that Raza was taking either of those stances... >.>

Those refugees fled because they feared oppression. That oppression exists because people fear what the refugees have to say. You're using them to defend the notion of rights to which you subscribe because you fear what may happen if people start to believe in rights being a grey-area...

Rights may not even exist, but it's certain fear is a passionate driving force. <3

I'm not literate today... -____-;


Also, Reptile is sex. Jax sucks.

[Raza]

First of all, most Cuban refugee deaths occur when the coast guard is not around. Most occur from the shanty boats they are on, capsize and the refugees drown. That would be the "risk" I'm talking about. Not the risk of being shot. In fact, do me a favor and find me an article that even mentions Cuban refugees being shot by the Coast Guard, please.

You're missing the point. My misrepresentation, rhetorical or otherwise, of the exact actions that you implied qualified them as an authority on the issue is quite irrelevant - otherwise I would not have done it. The point is that nothing in personal experience makes anyone an authority on any point to such a degree that simply saying "You're wrong, go ask them!" is a less-than-ridiculous contribution to a discussion pertaining to it.

Cubans risk their lives to flee from a place where they had no rights. Where just posting a rant against their countries government like MG here could of got them thrown in jail and has.

Cubans came in from a place where government was somewhat more malevolent than yours, but this hardly translates elegantly into the individual somehow 'having' or 'not having' 'rights'. There's been worse places to live than theirs, there will be better ones than yours - such arbitrary scaling does not warrant declaring a single redeeming quality to be 1/0 true or false, nor make valid the odd logic of attributing the tendency of external factors to not infringe upon an individual as a quality to that individual's person.

And to tell you the truth, last time I checked, you're not even American and I don't even know if you've ever even been to America so why are you even posting on this thread like this discussion somehow even includes you.

That's a somewhat narrow interpretation of this discussion; the question as to what rights are is entirely generic in nature; it's merely the america-central examples of popular but inadequate answers that seem to have gone and activated your patriotonin receptors.

Not that your argument would be useful if the debate did pertain exclusively to america, mind - "You're not an american so you need to shut up about us" is still an exceptionally dumb thing to say when all its premises are true, as perhaps demonstrated by your own semi-informed talking about Cuba - but in this case I'm getting the impression that you're missing the crux of your own indignation.

So you can take my absurd emotive rhetoric and shove it up your snobby, fuckin' know-it-all, condescending asshole.

It is rather too fragile for that, as I was pointing out. Also, you really should not use adjectives on adjectives; it entirely ruins the flow of your insult.

[SiouxSinner]

God didn't give me shit, I take what I want

[Ajax Knucklebones]

You're missing the point. My misrepresentation, rhetorical or otherwise, of the exact actions that you implied qualified them as an authority on the issue is quite irrelevant - otherwise I would not have done it. The point is that nothing in personal experience makes anyone an authority on any point to such a degree that simply saying "You're wrong, go ask them!" is a less-than-ridiculous contribution to a discussion pertaining to it.


Cubans came in from a place where government was somewhat more malevolent than yours, but this hardly translates elegantly into the individual somehow 'having' or 'not having' 'rights'. There's been worse places to live than theirs, there will be better ones than yours - such arbitrary scaling does not warrant declaring a single redeeming quality to be 1/0 true or false, nor make valid the odd logic of attributing the tendency of external factors to not infringe upon an individual as a quality to that individual's person.



That's a somewhat narrow interpretation of this discussion; the question as to what rights are is entirely generic in nature; it's merely the america-central examples of popular but inadequate answers that seem to have gone and activated your patriotonin receptors.

Not that your argument would be useful if the debate did pertain exclusively to america, mind - "You're not an american so you need to shut up about us" is still an exceptionally dumb thing to say when all its premises are true, as perhaps demonstrated by your own semi-informed talking about Cuba - but in this case I'm getting the impression that you're missing the crux of your own indignation.



It is rather too fragile for that, as I was pointing out. Also, you really should not use adjectives on adjectives; it entirely ruins the flow of your insult.

My point Raza, is that from what I can tell, MG is basically saying that "rights" are pretty much abstract. I'm calling "bullshit" on that one, because there are plenty of "rights" that are taking for granted every day in modern society. Rights, that as an American, the average fucker doesn't even realize they have. They are there. They do exist. Even the part where he mentions being arrested. If the police do not let you know of your rights than you get a "get out of jail" card. As easy as that. Yes, I'm sure there are countries where you have more rights, but take a person from a country such as Cuba, plant them here or some other countries and watch how quickly they realize the rights they have. They don't take that shit for granted. They study it, they use it everyday, and they know how precious those so-called "abstract" rights are. That's my point.

As for....

***It is rather too fragile for that, as I was pointing out. Also, you really should not use adjectives on adjectives; it entirely ruins the flow of your insult.***

That just goes back to my statement in the first place. Do you really think I give shit that I used an adjective upon another adjective? That I feel because doing so has lessened my insult( which by the way, was not so much of an insult, as it was meant to tell you how you seem to come off). That's what I mean by a know-it-all. Who really gives a fuck? Do you really think this forum is an English class? Why don't you just speak like a normal person vs. trying to one up everybody on your superb knowledge of the English vernacular and vocabulary words. Who cares? To me you just come off as "douchey" when you do it. I mean, do you really speak like that all the time to your friends in the "real" world?

[Buster Friendly]

blah blah blah blah blah

As for....*

Why don't you just speak like a normal person vs. trying to one up everybody on your superb knowledge of the English vernacular and vocabulary words. Who cares? To me you just come off as "douchey" when you do it. I mean, do you really speak like that all the time to your friends in the "real" world?

so in essence you're mad at Raza because he talks real purty.

that sir, simply isn't manly.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

so in essence you're mad at Raza because he talks real purty.

that sir, simply isn't manly.

I'm not mad at him for it. I just think he uses it as a weapon. I seriously find it hard to believe he actually speaks like that all the time in the real world. He might, but, Jesus, if I knew him, I'd just find him a snob. Maybe I'm wrong for my thinking, but it is what it is. It has nothing to do with "manliness".

[Buster Friendly]

. Maybe I'm wrong for my thinking, but it is what it is. It has nothing to do with "manliness".

Yes.

You are WRONG.

YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG!!!!

It has EVERYTHING to do with manliness.

Now man up, and put on that lace cravat, and that purple velvet double breasted suit.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Yes.

You are WRONG.

YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG!!!!

It has EVERYTHING to do with manliness.

Now man up, and put on that lace cravat, and that purple velvet double breasted suit.

You're right...You're right. Damn it, you're always right! :As I put on some red whore lip gloss, embarrassed by my misunderstanding of manliness:

[Buster Friendly]

You're right...You're right. Damn it, you're always right!

::shrugs::

It's a gift.

And a burden.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

::shrugs::

It's a gift.

And a burden.

Wow! Just like my huge penis.

[Buster Friendly]

Wow! Just like my huge penis.

Remember it's not really all that big a deal unless it gets it's own little wagon or wheelbarrow to keep it from dragging in the dirt.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Fuckin' Condolezza. I knew I shouldn't have banged her!

[Raza]

My point Raza, is that from what I can tell, MG is basically saying that "rights" are pretty much abstract. I'm calling "bullshit" on that one, because there are plenty of "rights" that are taking for granted every day in modern society. Rights, that as an American, the average fucker doesn't even realize they have. They are there. They do exist. Even the part where he mentions being arrested. If the police do not let you know of your rights than you get a "get out of jail" card. As easy as that. Yes, I'm sure there are countries where you have more rights, but take a person from a country such as Cuba, plant them here or some other countries and watch how quickly they realize the rights they have. They don't take that shit for granted. They study it, they use it everyday, and they know how precious those so-called "abstract" rights are. That's my point.

Yeah, I pretty much got that.

As for....

***It is rather too fragile for that, as I was pointing out. Also, you really should not use adjectives on adjectives; it entirely ruins the flow of your insult.***

That just goes back to my statement in the first place. Do you really think I give shit that I used an adjective upon another adjective? That I feel because doing so has lessened my insult( which by the way, was not so much of an insult, as it was meant to tell you how you seem to come off).

That's not a threat, it's a promise!

That's not an insult, it's what I think of you!




Anyway, I pointed it out exactly because the statement was otherwise quite apt. There's nothing quite like saying the right thing in the right way, and you went and wasted that experience on a redundant 'fucking', if there is such a thing.

That's what I mean by a know-it-all. Who really gives a fuck? Do you really think this forum is an English class? Why don't you just speak like a normal person vs. trying to one up everybody on your superb knowledge of the English vernacular and vocabulary words. Who cares? To me you just come off as "douchey" when you do it. I mean, do you really speak like that all the time to your friends in the "real" world?

I make a point of never doing anything like a normal person if I can help it, and one-upping everyone (that is to say, you) with my 'superb knowledge of the English vernacular and vocabulary words' (I don't know what a vernacular is, but I'll sure as hell start using it when I find out) is half the fun of having one.

The other half, naturally, being the ability to properly word the one-ups for extra emphasis.

[OliX]

How can you be an ability?

[Morning Glory]

wonder twin powers?

[OliX]

These wieners are winers!



Time for some wonder twins wonder speed!

Gofer mode FTW!

[jonny.illuminati]

another good thread gone bad...

[Raza]

My bad, I'll cut down on the lengthy refutations and use more lolcats next time.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Yeah, I pretty much got that.


That's not a threat, it's a promise!

That's not an insult, it's what I think of you!




Anyway, I pointed it out exactly because the statement was otherwise quite apt. There's nothing quite like saying the right thing in the right way, and you went and wasted that experience on a redundant 'fucking', if there is such a thing.



I make a point of never doing anything like a normal person if I can help it, and one-upping everyone (that is to say, you) with my 'superb knowledge of the English vernacular and vocabulary words' (I don't know what a vernacular is, but I'll sure as hell start using it when I find out) is half the fun of having one.

The other half, naturally, being the ability to properly word the one-ups for extra emphasis.

The definition of "vernacular" when used as a noun is "the common language of a certain place".

And the key word in my paragraph is "trying" when it comes to one-upping someone. In order to one-up a person, said person must feel like they were one-upped. If they don't feel like they were, then how does joy come from that? It's like a dick that always laughs at his own jokes, but know one else does. What's really the point? People all around this dude would just view him as unfunny and kind pf pathetic that he doesn't realize he's not funny. I never felt like you one-upped me. I just felt you came off as a snob. Which was the whole point of the my paragraph. Well, whatever. I still do not believe that you speak like you write. Maybe you do. Your friends must cherish you for that.

And Olix, yes we did kind of hi-jack this thread. Sorry. Waaaaaaaaaaa!

[Raza]

I perceive the situation as I do, you perceive it as you do, but you lost me when there suddenly was an 'everyone else' presumed to have duplicated your sentiments.

Anyway, I don't generally speak as I write. There's many obvious practical reasons for that, ranging from the time frame available for the communication of a given point to my (lack of) motivation to put effort into talking when the audience consists only of something like a single person I'm probably not really interested in and no future reference or review will be possible. Still, if you're someone I like, take your time to get into a discussion with me on a subject of substance and catch me in a talkative mood, it'll get pretty close. I'm not seeing why you're so keen on establishing the obvious, though?

[Ajax Knucklebones]

I perceive the situation as I do, you perceive it as you do, but you lost me when there suddenly was an 'everyone else' presumed to have duplicated your sentiments.

Anyway, I don't generally speak as I write. There's many obvious practical reasons for that, ranging from the time frame available for the communication of a given point to my (lack of) motivation to put effort into talking when the audience consists only of something like a single person I'm probably not really interested in and no future reference or review will be possible. Still, if you're someone I like, take your time to get into a discussion with me on a subject of substance and catch me in a talkative mood, it'll get pretty close. I'm not seeing why you're so keen on establishing the obvious, though?

Then I suppose you never will.

[Morning Glory]

And Olix, yes we did kind of hi-jack this thread. Sorry. Waaaaaaaaaaa!

it's OK, I don't mind, I'm usually the one that helps to derail it, and my own threads are no exception. Is there a snarky internet meme for the point at which people run out of intelligent things to say on a subject and just start bullshitting? well, I don't know, but when the youtube vids start popping up that's a good sign. unless the OP put in a youtube video, in which case the thread probably was bullshit from the start.

[OliX]

I never understand people apologizing for hijacking. Hijack all you want if it keeps conversation going on.

Sometimes when someone makes a point or just says all there is to be said about a certain topic, that just kills the convo. Not necessarily but mostly.

[Raza]

Then I suppose you never will.

Ooh, cryptic.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

These wieners are winers!



Time for some wonder twins wonder speed!

Gofer mode FTW!

Wonder twin powers activate.....

Shape of a giant butt plug. Form of anal lube.

[OliX]

Since she can take just animal form eels would be just fine

[bohoki]

rights and laws are required in a civilized society

laws tell you what you can't do and rights tell you what you can do they are designed to prevent laws from infringing on them


ps i dont know why we pledge alegance to a flag

we should b epledging alegance to the country

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Flag...Country....same thing.

[Buster Friendly]

I am not exactly sure what I feel about this, but if it isn't one of my god given rights, then you can all fuck right the fuck off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgqTS3XcAuI