Questions About Current Cultural Behaviours Pro & Con

[ForrestBlack]

What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

[Morning Glory]

well when one is surrounded by negativity and feelings of helplessness it causes some individuals to break way from mainstream society and embrace counter-culture and alternative cultures. unfortunetly unless one is apathetic, which won't do much to combat a feeling of helplessness, the overall mentality of negativity will still seep into these cultures. as a result people will feel a sense of nihilism, that everything is meaningless and that there's no point in doing anything. they will feel even more isolated and alienated. I think the problem is not so much a new one, but one that has been building up, people rebelled against the mainstream and formed thier own communities, but they got too caught up in the thoughts of freedom that they forgot the responsibility of thier actions, and the underlining fact that they were still practing all the same old behavior patterns that they were always conditioned to, and that they had thought they were rebelling against.

[Kidthorazine]

I think now because society as a whole has become so damned negative and most of the kids coming into scene and gaining influence are either spoiled brats from the suburbs or or kids that are underprivlidged and have to take crap from the spoiled suburb kids. I think of it is also that pop culture is invading the the underground and that pissing a lot of people (including myself) a lot it is because of corporate exploitation (Hot Topic anyone) but i also think the internet has played a role because ince something is on the net its not really that underground anymore unless it manages to stay really taboo as far as the mainstream is concerned (such as this lovely site here) As for the rip down your icons thing the sad fact is that most major rock Icons are either pre-fabricated emulations of everything else (pretty much anything on MTV) are really old or are getting there (the Rolling Stones, or to lesser extent Mettalica, Pearl Jam and a whole host of others.) or are whoring themselves out to mass media (Ozzy, Mettalica and scores of others) im formulating a whole theory on this and what i just wrote is the jist of it.

[ForrestBlack]

well when one is surrounded by negativity and feelings of helplessness it causes some individuals to break way from mainstream society and embrace counter-culture and alternative cultures. unfortunetly unless one is apathetic, which won't do much to combat a feeling of helplessness, the overall mentality of negativity will still seep into these cultures. as a result people will feel a sense of nihilism, that everything is meaningless and that there's no point in doing anything. they will feel even more isolated and alienated. I think the problem is not so much a new one, but one that has been building up, people rebelled against the mainstream and formed thier own communities, but they got too caught up in the thoughts of freedom that they forgot the responsibility of thier actions, and the underlining fact that they were still practing all the same old behavior patterns that they were always conditioned to, and that they had thought they were rebelling against.

Yeah, I think you make some good observations there, or certainly some that I agree with anyway.

I do think that the modern phenomenon of false grass-roots testimonial marketing has made people a lot less likely to respond to anything positive, since it's nearly impossible to tell what is real sentiment and what is paid/placed BS public relations. I also think that the out of control internet driven Tom Peters "Brand of Self" stuff has really spoiled a lot as well. People only see opportunities to hawk their own thing, or shill for their own team, without giving any appreciation or respect to that which is also good around them.

[Kidthorazine]

this article i found also a represents the very harsh tone set by the mainstream towards the countercultire which i believe is gettin worse. This is a bit extreem though

William Grim, Contributing Editor of the popular conservative web site The Iconoclast, has penned the following article with regards to the recent murder of DAMAGEPLAN/ex-PANTERA guitarist "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott:

You've undoubtedly heard by now that a demented fan last week killed heavy metal guitarist Dimebag Abbott at the Alrosa Villa in Columbus, Ohio. While I am extremely happy to hear that the assassin was shot to death by a brave Columbus policeman and I in no way want to engage in a blaming the victim scenario, I cannot deny that there much in Mr. Abbott's demise of one being hoisted on one's petard. The squalor, inhumanity, filth (both in the metaphorical and hygienic senses), depravity, ugliness and ignorance of everything that heavy metal represents (Like rap, I cannot use the noble term music in a description of heavy metal) creates a mindset among its devotees in which Mr. Abbott's assassination was an event that was all but waiting to happen.

It was highly amusing, and also terribly sad, to watch on television fans conducting a "vigil" for the slain Mr. Abbott outside of the Alrosa Villa. It was an assemblage of ignorant, semi-human barbarians who were filthy in attire and manner, intellectually incoherent and above all else, hideously ugly to the point of physical deformity. Here is a definite case in which the outer appearance of these "fans" accurately represented the hideousness of their souls. That the physical deformity of their ugliness was self-inflicted makes the spiritual tragedy of their misspent lives all the more tragic.

But one can see why the heavy metal fans so closely identified with Mr. Abbott. He was an ignorant, barbaric, untalented possessor of a guitar and large amplifier system. Freakish in appearance, more simian than human, he was the performer of a type of "entertainment" that can be likened only to a gorilla on PCP. Lacking subtlety, wit, style, emotional range and anything approaching even the smallest iota of intellectual or musical interest, Mr. Abbott was part of a generation that has confused sputum with art and involuntary reflex actions with emotion.

De gustibus non disputandem est. Matters of taste are not subject to argument. That has been a general principle of aesthetics for some time, and when we are talking about the visceral preference for Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven among civilized human beings we are on pretty safe ground. I do not understand exactly why I prefer Haydn to my good friend who prefers Beethoven. But we both agree (as do all civilized human beings) that both Messrs. Haydn and Beethoven are numerous steps further along the evolutionary trail than Dimebag Abbott.

Here is one area in which conservatives have failed and failed miserably. Whether it is out of a lack of interest or despair, conservatives for too long have ceded the entire field of aesthetics to the trust fund red babies of the blue states. And look at what this has brought us. So-called heavy metal music, so-called rap music, operas and stage plays in which modern "stagings" reduce Verdi and Shakespeare to the condition of a schizophrenic's finger paintings. Leftist domination in the visual arts has made a mockery of the aesthetic greatness of modernism and replaced it with the turd encased in Lucite. And the grammatically-challenged racist rantings of Amiri Baraka now pass for poetry.

However, we conservatives should not confuse family values with aesthetics. In the realm of art, our evangelical brethren have many crimes to answer for. When a church replaces Bach with Bacharach it has engaged in the aesthetic **** of the liturgy. Just because one has good intentions and approaches the numinous with "sincerity" and "authenticity" (the latter term ironically being a buzzword among the Marxist aestheticians of the Frankfurt School), that does not absolve one from aesthetic responsibility.

As far as I am concerned, those who advocate a dumbed-down liturgy and schlocky pop music substitutes for Bach, Handel and the masses of the Renaissance, are as offensive as the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church and his perverse sexual politics.

Part of the hard work of civilization is teaching young to be able to distinguish between the good and the bad in all aspects of life. If we teach our young children to obey the 10 Commandments and to obey the laws of the land, but don't teach them to realize that Johann Sebastian Bach is superior to Dimebag Abbott, we have failed as parents and mentors. If a person has gone through 12 or 13 years of education and has not developed an appreciation for the greatest artistic achievements of mankind, that education has been an utter failure.

While laissez-faire is the correct approach to economics it has no place in the realm of aesthetics or morality. A confidant civilization imposes its morality and aesthetics on it young people. Yes, you heard it right. We impose. The Rousseauian noble savage is a myth. Left unchecked and untutored the savage will never attain nobility.

There are those who will accuse me of elitism. And I admit it. I am a conservative elitist. I want the very best. The very best form of government, the very best of civilizations, the very best educational system, the very best literature and art, the very best music, the very best way of life. If I need open heart surgery I want to go to an elite heart surgeon.

Mediocrity is the goal of socialism. Americans should aspire to greatness.

In the past forty years, conservatives have won great victories in the political, economic and moral realms, but we stand to throw all our gains away if we do not reclaim ascendancy in the aesthetic realm as well.

And while the murder of even a semi-human barbarian like Mr. Abbott is tragic and to be lamented, it would be wrong to ignore Mr. Abbott's complicity in contributing to the soul-deadening culture of death, ugliness, depravity and inhumanity that spawned his killer.

Hugo von Hofmannsthal once remarked that "all powerful imaginations are conservative." It is time for conservatives to utilize their imaginations and reclaim the field of aesthetics from the left-that is, while there is still something left in the aesthetic realm worth reclaiming.

Iconoclast contributing editor William E. Grim is a FUCKIN LOSER of-a writer who lives in Germany and is a native of Columbus, Ohio. This loser may be reached at wgrim@myrealbox.com

[Morning Glory]

here's an article I just read. I'm not sure if it's exactly along these lines of thinking, but I think it is relevent and at least ties in to some of the attitudes/behaviours of the "alternative" community.

I used to think if I didn't use the word ****** than I wasn't racist anymore. I used to think if I didn't use the word bitch when women were around then I wasn't sexist anymore. I used to think that if I wasn't buying into the homecoming king shit that I wasn't buying into hierarchical social relations. I used to think that so long as nobody "gay" was around it was OK to use words like faggot to dehumanize others.
I saw that there were serious problems with the way people were. Unfortunately I believed my parents, the TV, etc. when they said not engaging in those things was a simple matter of not saying a couple words, not doing a couple of behaviors anymore. They said that change would mean just those simple little things because they didn't want to REALLY change. They didn't want to really face institutional racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, male supremacy, greed. They wanted to be able to point the finger at somebody else and not have to examine their own lives.

Do you want to change? Do want to accept the fact that people shaped your attitudes over YEARS? Do you want to accept that it might take years to extract these things from yourself? It might even take your whole life?

Are you willing to accept that you are as much a part of the problem as anybody else?
Are you willing to give up the privileges you get from our society?
Are you willing to give up the idea of human domination over nature?
Are you willing to actually accept the fact that you don't know it all and ask some one for help (oh how unmanly!)?
Or are you just looking for a mohawk, a place to be cool, a place to be superior, a place to prove your gender identity, a place to get fucked up and not take responsibility for your life?

[ForrestBlack]

I don't think the problem is pressure or negativity from the outside anymore though. I think it's more internal than that. A cool venture gets a lot more static from supposedly cool identified people than it ever gets from the mainstream world now. I think the problem is that the mainstream world co-opts cool things too efficiently. It's like a kid that got an earing used to get in trouble, so he was being a rebel for getting it anyway, but now his dad would just get one too and then his dad would hit on his girlfriend and tell her what a hip dad he was. At this point, the kid would decide that the earing was a dumb idea and would simply start to reject anything that could be taken, anything that could be co-opted and made stupid.

[Kidthorazine]

I don't think the problem is pressure or negativity from the outside anymore though. I think it's more internal than that. A cool venture gets a lot more static from supposedly cool identified people than it ever gets from the mainstream world now. I think the problem is that the mainstream world co-opts cool things too efficiently. It's like a kid that got an earing used to get in trouble, so he was being a rebel for getting it anyway, but now his dad would just get one too and then his dad would hit on his girlfriend and tell her what a hip dad he was. At this point, the kid would decide that the earing was a dumb idea and would simply start to reject anything that could be taken, anything that could be co-opted and made stupid.

Go point i think part of the problem is that damn near everything is co-opted. Now you can buy psuedo punk and goth clothes in every goddamn shopping mall in america they keep turning scee into a fucking trend and that disenfrachises the already disenfranchised people from the counterculture because it all of the sudden becomes super big and popular.

[Amelia G]

Go point i think part of the problem is that damn near everything is co-opted. Now you can buy psuedo punk and goth clothes in every goddamn shopping mall in america they keep turning scee into a fucking trend and that disenfrachises the already disenfranchised people from the counterculture because it all of the sudden becomes super big and popular.

Totally agree. It leaves me feeling like a big comfy skirt or sweatpants and an oversized T-shirt are the only look I feel okay in and I used to dress to the nines. But any time I wear something really interesting or photograph a really interesting outfit, there are all sorts of corporate interests just waiting to pounce on it and suck the life out of it.

And being disenfranchised from being disenfranchised is a really confusing state to be in. Especially when too often it is difficult to count on the people who once would have identified as counterculture.

[Kidthorazine]

Totally agree. It leaves me feeling like a big comfy skirt or sweatpants and an oversized T-shirt are the only look I feel okay in and I used to dress to the nines. But any time I wear something really interesting or photograph a really interesting outfit, there are all sorts of corporate interests just waiting to pounce on it and suck the life out of it.

I take a different approach i still dress to the nines (when im not being lazy) because i know i have style which trendy kinds and corporate designers seem to lack. and as for sucking the life out of it ive realized they cant do that if you dont let them because you can just go do the same thing over again after all the trendy crap passes and pop culture moves on i think thats how punk and heavy metal have lasted so long people couldve given up on metal after it became all popular and turned into that eighties hair metal crap but they just re emerged after Grunge came along and killed hair metal i think that will start happening to punk and goth after the world forgets about Blink-182 and Evanescence

[23*]

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

It was easier to be a famous writer when less books had been written.
It was easier to do something innovative with music when there was less music around.
Its more difficult to change the direction of art when there are so many more artists.

This makes sense.
if you want to take something to another level these days the chances are that somebody else will already have done it before you. The rate of change is increasing, its harder to make a big splash when the river is moving ever more quickly.

More people are contributing to the artistry pool, media is being created by people who didnt have that opportunity before (because of technology or education etc.) and idolatry is no longer necessary. On the whole i think this is a good thing.

[Amelia G]

It was easier to be a famous writer when less books had been written.
It was easier to do something innovative with music when there was less music around.
Its more difficult to change the direction of art when there are so many more artists.

This makes sense.
if you want to take something to another level these days the chances are that somebody else will already have done it before you. The rate of change is increasing, its harder to make a big splash when the river is moving ever more quickly.

More people are contributing to the artistry pool, media is being created by people who didnt have that opportunity before (because of technology or education etc.) and idolatry is no longer necessary. On the whole i think this is a good thing.

I agree with you that it seems to me that there are all these amazing new tools and there should be HUGE amounts of new art with new things to say, but idolatry has become a HUGE industrty instead. Digital technology makes it so much easier to express oneself artistically to an audience, but too many people seem to have nothing of their own to say beyond self-promotion. Paris Hilton is the new paradigm. It seems like new tech is much more commonly being used to market bands like N'Sync to previously undreamed of levels, while the counterculture drags down its own artists who are trying to create something heartfelt. And then megacorps repackage what little art is still being made and sell it back to the people who were so negative about what genuinely came out of their scene. And then we end up with Avril LaVigne and Evanescence and Hot Topic.

[BrightStar]

I know hot topic did stuff, but what did Avril and Evanescence do ?

**

[Amelia G]

I know hot topic did stuff, but what did Avril and Evanescence do ?

**

They were based off of creations by genuine people in real scenes and repackaged by megacorporations into something not organic for the purpose of being sold back to the counterculture. Sometimes these processed food entertainments are in fact entertaining, but they are parasites killing their host.

As it pertains to the topic of this thread, it seems like a lot of people will buy an album featuring a fashion model dressed by a stylist more or less singing slickly produced songs written by forty-year-old women who have lived and have something to say. But they probably won't go to their local singer/songwriter night and tell a performer who is doing her own thing that they liked her song.

[BrightStar]

I think that you mentioned in a different post that you met Avril, and she seemed to be all bored, and doing that like she was contractually obligated?

**

[Amelia G]

I think that you mentioned in a different post that you met Avril, and she seemed to be all bored, and doing that like she was contractually obligated?

**

My statement above had nothing to do with Avril LaVigne as a person. What did you not understand about my actual point?

[BrightStar]

My statement above had nothing to do with Avril LaVigne as a person. What did you not understand about my actual point?

I understood what you said, I was just curious about that, though that was a completely different issue.



**

[TheDeathKnight]

Well, you all know from my comments on the Hot Topic issue, that I think that spreading of alternative cultures and styles to the mainstream is a good thing. Even if people are being trendy, at least they know that dressing strangely does not mean you are a loser, etc. Because many more people will have been into that "scene" at one time in their lives. In the future, a lot more bosses and executives will have tattoos, etc, so they will not be so prejudiced against kids who have them. In fact, as a boss, I would be *more* inclined to hire people with alternative style. That would not happen if I was not part of that scene myself. If it had stayed totally underground, I might not have been exposed to it. Anyhow, I think the main thing that is a problem, is the negativity you mentioned. And I think that happens because people are thinking that they want to be cool. So if the "trend" is goth, or EMO, and they are dressing the part, they will want to put down other styles and trends. And put down people in their own scene, because they still want to be "cooler" than they are. The old school people want to put down the people wearing Hot Topic gear, and the people wearing the Hot Topic gear want to put down people who are wearing old "thrift store junk". Same goes for music, etc... People put down new music as being trendy and commercial, and people who are into the new music put down fans of "classic" punk, deathrock, etc, as being old fogeys, into old crappy music. But the main problem is that negativity. Putting everyone else down, instead of realizing that it's fine to like whatever you want to like. I like classic music, I like new music. I like mellow stuff, and I like hardcore. I like making my own clothes and costumes, and sometimes I will buy something interesting from Hot Topic. I think that the negativity is the main problem.... And yes, it stifles creativity, because people are so harsh about everything. You have to have a strong self image, and a lot of confidence, to put stuff out there that you create, because people are going to criticize it like crazy.

[TheDeathKnight]

Can you imagine the backlash I would get, if I decided to make some catchy pop music, just because I felt like it? Or the backlash I would get, if I decided to do a line of cool alternative clothes, that I would be willing to market on a large scale? The simple idea that people in this scene *might* want to make money doing something commercial, is always slammed. It seems like no one wants you to make money, or be successful. Everyone seems to hate Marilyn Manson. But he is pretty fucking different and alternative. But just because he exploited America, and the fans, and the music industry, to be successful, he is hated. He's seen as commercial, and a sellout, when he really just did the best job he could at selling his music and image to the masses. He did a good job, and was very successful at it, and a lot of people in this scene hate him for it. I think it's lame. Give him props for making it...

[Amelia G]

Can you imagine the backlash I would get, if I decided to make some catchy pop music, just because I felt like it? Or the backlash I would get, if I decided to do a line of cool alternative clothes, that I would be willing to market on a large scale? The simple idea that people in this scene *might* want to make money doing something commercial, is always slammed. It seems like no one wants you to make money, or be successful. Everyone seems to hate Marilyn Manson. But he is pretty fucking different and alternative. But just because he exploited America, and the fans, and the music industry, to be successful, he is hated. He's seen as commercial, and a sellout, when he really just did the best job he could at selling his music and image to the masses. He did a good job, and was very successful at it, and a lot of people in this scene hate him for it. I think it's lame. Give him props for making it...

I think that is dead-on some of what Forrest was talking about in terms of the negativity. And it seems like that negativity is way more likely to be turned on something like Marilyn Manson which actually bootstraps itself out of the underground for real. There are people who remember standing next to him who are furious that he proved it was possible for someone talented and very hardworking to succeed. Because he actually came out of a real scene, there are people who remember that not every outfit he ever wore was flawless. But some record company-selected teen who is styled by professionals won't have the same embarrassing early career shots or scenesters who remember her when.

This might be slightly off-topic, but I'm going to take this opportunity to say that I really liked Mechanical Animals and I think the album took such heat because (a) Manson admitted he noticed he was successful on it and (b) there were a lot of people in the scene who just felt he was somehow due to be taken down a peg.

[Amelia G]

Actually I want to add another point to that. There is a huge backlash if you admit to maybe, possibly, just a teeny bit wanting success. But, if you try to do something totally noncommercial, there are always people who want to snarf it to make a buck off of it and are furious if you want your work to be noncommercial. Forrest Black and I did a lot of photography which we shot on film where art supplies are super expensive and it really seemed to enrage people that we were working day jobs to support our art and wanted it to be pure and presented in artistic context and not repurposed for a dollar for some third party.

So artists get the negativity if they reject commercialism and they get the negativity if they embrace commercialism.

If at least there was peer pressure in a specific direction, one could make an informed choice on whether or not to conform. As is, it is just a lose/lose situation for creative people.

[TheDeathKnight]

You have a couple things you need to do in life.

Survive.

Be happy.

So in order to survive, or succeed, you have to sell out a bit, to make money. You have to pay the rent, buy food, clothes, etc... So you need to do what you can do to survive. And it's a capitalist, dog-eat-dog world. Whomever is the most clever, wins. Whomever is the hardest working, wins. You have to use your mind, your body, your talent, and everything you have, to succeed over all the rest of the people out there. Everyone wants a job, wants to make a buck, etc, and you have to do your best to survive...Even if that means getting a haircut, or playing the role of the good, reliable employee...

And in order to be happy, you just have to do what you want to do, and say "fuck off" to all those people who are negative, and don't like what you do for fun. If I want to wear an ugly-ass outfit for fun, then I will. I will laugh at myself, and have fun, and I do not care if people think it is trendy or not. Fuck 'em... I know some of you hate Hot Topic. But if I go out wearing something I bought at Hot Topic, I do not give one rat's ass if other people like it or not. If I like it, and think it looks cool, then I am happy. If I want to listen to some stupid-ass music, I will. I do not care what you think about what I am listening to. I was just listening to that new Green Day song (I walk alone?) on KROQ this morning. And guess what? I LIKE IT! So what if it is "commercial"? Who cares if they are sellouts... It's a catchy tune, and I like it. Does that mean I have no musical taste? No. I like all kinds of other stuff. From Trance, to Deathrock, to industrial, EBM, Black Metal, pretty much everything... From old to new... If I like a song, and I enjoy it, then I am happy.... What the hell is wrong with that? If someone wants to listen to NSYNC because it makes them happy, and dance around, then it's worth whatever they paid for it.

[Amelia G]

You have a couple things you need to do in life.

Survive.

Be happy.

So in order to survive, or succeed, you have to sell out a bit, to make money. You have to pay the rent, buy food, clothes, etc... So you need to do what you can do to survive. And it's a capitalist, dog-eat-dog world. Whomever is the most clever, wins. Whomever is the hardest working, wins. You have to use your mind, your body, your talent, and everything you have, to succeed over all the rest of the people out there. Everyone wants a job, wants to make a buck, etc, and you have to do your best to survive...Even if that means getting a haircut, or playing the role of the good, reliable employee...

And in order to be happy, you just have to do what you want to do, and say "fuck off" to all those people who are negative, and don't like what you do for fun. If I want to wear an ugly-ass outfit for fun, then I will. I will laugh at myself, and have fun, and I do not care if people think it is trendy or not. Fuck 'em... I know some of you hate Hot Topic. But if I go out wearing something I bought at Hot Topic, I do not give one rat's ass if other people like it or not. If I like it, and think it looks cool, then I am happy. If I want to listen to some stupid-ass music, I will. I do not care what you think about what I am listening to. I was just listening to that new Green Day song (I walk alone?) on KROQ this morning. And guess what? I LIKE IT! So what if it is "commercial"? Who cares if they are sellouts... It's a catchy tune, and I like it. Does that mean I have no musical taste? No. I like all kinds of other stuff. From Trance, to Deathrock, to industrial, EBM, Black Metal, pretty much everything... From old to new... If I like a song, and I enjoy it, then I am happy.... What the hell is wrong with that? If someone wants to listen to NSYNC because it makes them happy, and dance around, then it's worth whatever they paid for it.

I 100% agree with the broad strokes of what you said here. I think a problem subculture has at the moment (and perhaps always) is defining the difference between selling out and simply selling. I like the new Green Day single too. They are another example of a band which came out of a real scene and had their own community spew negativity all over them. There are much more manufactured pop punk bands out there which receive far less bile. It is, in my opinion, for their very realness that Green Day is castigated. The Buzzcocks were pop punk too and I'm a Buzzcocks fan as well. It is like Green Day could be a great band so long as they only played Gilman Street, but it was forbidden to permit anyone outside to hear them.

I don't think changing one's haircut to be appropriate for a job is selling out. I think changing one's morals to make a buck is selling out. I think part of being happy is being able to look oneself in the eye in the mirror in the morning. Unfortunately, sometimes doing the right thing the decent way can threaten one's survival when there is competition from rapacious predatory corporations who don't care what they destroy.

[One Eyed Cat]

I 100% agree with the broad strokes of what you said here. I think a problem subculture has at the moment (and perhaps always) is defining the difference between selling out and simply selling. I like the new Green Day single too. They are another example of a band which came out of a real scene and had their own community spew negativity all over them. There are much more manufactured pop punk bands out there which receive far less bile. It is, in my opinion, for their very realness that Green Day is castigated. The Buzzcocks were pop punk too and I'm a Buzzcocks fan as well. It is like Green Day could be a great band so long as they only played Gilman Street, but it was forbidden to permit anyone outside to hear them.

I don't think changing one's haircut to be appropriate for a job is selling out. I think changing one's morals to make a buck is selling out. I think part of being happy is being able to look oneself in the eye in the mirror in the morning. Unfortunately, sometimes doing the right thing the decent way can threaten one's survival when there is competition from rapacious predatory corporations who don't care what they destroy.

I'm seeing Green Day tomorrow at an arena. The only downside is I may not be getting backstage. I'm hoping to catch Billie's attention by screaming out old names and places so I can get some pics for my site (I have an article called Green Revolution meets Orange) The only thing I don't like are the barriers you have to cross for a few minutes with guys you stood at kegs for.

OEC

[TheDeathKnight]

And at the same time, if you don't want to sell out, and make money, then just keep playing Gilmore Street, and never leave the underground. Never sign a record deal, and just play music for your friends, and be happy doing it... I have no problem with people who don't want to sell out, don't want to be commercial, and want to do their own thing... That's totally cool. But don't shit all over the people who may want to make a little money doing a pretty cool job... If you can make money marketing alternative music, or alternative lifestyle, clothing, etc, that is awesome. I credit the expansion of the scene with providing a market for those things. Without Green Day, Marilyn Manson, Hot Topic, etc, I do not think a lot of alternative people would be able to make a living. But now it has become mainstream enough that I can sit at a very large company, with green hair and tattoos, and no one minds... They are desensitized to it. That is really damn cool... It allows people to be expressive, and be creative, and still make a living. And I think that is a good thing...

[One Eyed Cat]

What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

For one, the idea of being "alternative" has been so mass-marketed that you cannot rely on it. I just do what pleases me. Let's be honest tho: when I first saw your avatar it brought back a shitload of memories. I ended up doing Ukrainian sites because I make more of a difference and culturally that society neither build you up nor breaks you down. To me, the vile media loves to build people up and break em down. I can't even mention a lot of things without being flambasted. Thus, one gets bitter and just leaves or does not engage in pursuits oriented to a community that seems not to exist. (I mean no offense to the cool people who post here, but I have to be true to my own experiences)

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

And at the same time, if you don't want to sell out, and make money, then just keep playing Gilmore Street, and never leave the underground. Never sign a record deal, and just play music for your friends, and be happy doing it... I have no problem with people who don't want to sell out, don't want to be commercial, and want to do their own thing... That's totally cool. But don't shit all over the people who may want to make a little money doing a pretty cool job... If you can make money marketing alternative music, or alternative lifestyle, clothing, etc, that is awesome. I credit the expansion of the scene with providing a market for those things. Without Green Day, Marilyn Manson, Hot Topic, etc, I do not think a lot of alternative people would be able to make a living. But now it has become mainstream enough that I can sit at a very large company, with green hair and tattoos, and no one minds... They are desensitized to it. That is really damn cool... It allows people to be expressive, and be creative, and still make a living. And I think that is a good thing...

Noone even mentions how much Green Day has put back into the scene. Noone mentions Billie's Adeline Records. Instead, people protest the few shows they play at the old haunts and talk shit when cool bands like Pinhead Gunpowder play (Billie, Cometbus)

OEC

[Morning Glory]

funny you should mention that, here's another article I just read:

Every time I walk by a news stand I notice somebody that used to hang around gilman/berkeley on the cover of spin or rolling stone magazine. So I usually stop and read the next slew of crap about how punk is an "attitude" and how it was never about whether you were a millionaire or not and how it never was about being political. For some reason the fact that I can't read any of these magazines with out reading the names of my and my friends old bands. It seems like these names are used to prove that they are from a real underground. It makes me feel really pissed, like something was stolen from me. No band that I have been a part of was for media vampires, those words don't belong in their magazines. It doesn't make the sellouts valid, it only makes them thieves.

[One Eyed Cat]

MG,

Thanks for the quote. I was Gilman kid for years. They didn't steal shit. The people complaining just weren't the ones producing.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

I kinda doubt that, that article was written by jeff ott. he did more worthwhile shit than any of those kids.

Does greenday give food to homeless people? did greenday open up a needle exchange and take the time to educate people about sexual transmitted diseases? does greenday councel victims of sexual abuse in thier community? I don't think so.

[One Eyed Cat]

I kinda doubt that, that article was written by jeff ott. he did more worthwhile shit than any of those kids.

Does greenday give food to homeless people? did greenday open up a needle exchange and take the time to educate people about sexual transmitted diseases? does greenday councel victims of sexual abuse in thier community? I don't think so.

They still give food to homeless people. There is a can drive at the show I'm going to. I've met Jeff Ott quite a few times, he's a speedfreak who alienated virtually everyone around him. I'll remember him mostly for butting my cigarettes while I slept at Ellsworth House.

OEC

[Amelia G]

I'm seeing Green Day tomorrow at an arena. The only downside is I may not be getting backstage. I'm hoping to catch Billie's attention by screaming out old names and places so I can get some pics for my site (I have an article called Green Revolution meets Orange) The only thing I don't like are the barriers you have to cross for a few minutes with guys you stood at kegs for.

OEC

It is exactly the negativity from within the scene which causes those barriers to be erected. Those barriers are awful for the people who were positive back in the day and are still positive now. Those barriers are awful for the band members. But the coattailing negative yahoos who want to brag about having punched Glenn Danzig or something make those barriers necessary.

[Amelia G]

Noone even mentions how much Green Day has put back into the scene. Noone mentions Billie's Adeline Records. Instead, people protest the few shows they play at the old haunts and talk shit when cool bands like Pinhead Gunpowder play (Billie, Cometbus)

OEC

Excellent point. People who only take from the community will be negative that a band like Green Day has success even though they put far more back into the community than the people spreading negative energies.

[Evilbink]

What are your opinions about the underlying reasons supposedly cool people are so negative and so lacking in the drive to create anything cool anymore?

What do you feel the driving forces and/or contributing factors are in the steady decline in any sense of overall community within the alternative/punk/gothic/industrial/fandom/etc. worlds.

Who or what is responsible for the tear down your idols, kill your rockstars, up is down and down is up mentality that seems to permeate the scenes that were once built around fun and creativity?

Guess i'm just an ass but i can live with that. But in my opinion, the reason for the overall decline of every and any cultural community, scene or what have you is quite simply the fact that it involves PEOPLE. We (people) cant help but to destroy everything good around us by act or omission. Its one of our basic flaws we cannot avoid. My example is of a cool club.. Everyone goes and loves it, they tell more people to go cause its cool. the next thing you know people that you don't like are there and so.. you stop going. Who's to blame? Everyone. I may have oversimplified the issue in your opinion but I feel that it all comes down to the same end. People suck.

[One Eyed Cat]

It is exactly the negativity from within the scene which causes those barriers to be erected. Those barriers are awful for the people who were positive back in the day and are still positive now. Those barriers are awful for the band members. But the coattailing negative yahoos who want to brag about having punched Glenn Danzig or something make those barriers necessary.

Oh. I know. I'm just royally irked that I didn't have time to get a backstage pass. Now, I'm gonna have to scream out old names and places and hope that Billie sees me to get a cool picture for my Orange meets Green post. He'd do it in a second if it wasn't for all this bullshit.

OEC

[Amelia G]

Guess i'm just an ass but i can live with that. But in my opinion, the reason for the overall decline of every and any cultural community, scene or what have you is quite simply the fact that it involves PEOPLE. We (people) cant help but to destroy everything good around us by act or omission. Its one of our basic flaws we cannot avoid. My example is of a cool club.. Everyone goes and loves it, they tell more people to go cause its cool. the next thing you know people that you don't like are there and so.. you stop going. Who's to blame? Everyone. I may have oversimplified the issue in your opinion but I feel that it all comes down to the same end. People suck.

That's certainly most likely part of the answer. I'm hoping there are some bits of reason for optimism in there too though.

[One Eyed Cat]

Excellent point. People who only take from the community will be negative that a band like Green Day has success even though they put far more back into the community than the people spreading negative energies.

yah. I gave up on that crowd long ago. All they ever did was give me grief for being a deathrock kid who also supported a lot of local punk bands.

OEC

[Amelia G]

yah. I gave up on that crowd long ago. All they ever did was give me grief for being a deathrock kid who also supported a lot of local punk bands.

OEC

One thing that was kind of cool about the DC scene I was very actively involved in when I founded Blue Blood in print is that the different subcultures tended to be more all sort of mish-mashed together, which really suits my personal outlook on the world. On the other hand, they were very anti-success.

[One Eyed Cat]

One thing that was kind of cool about the DC scene I was very actively involved in when I founded Blue Blood in print is that the different subcultures tended to be more all sort of mish-mashed together, which really suits my personal outlook on the world. On the other hand, they were very anti-success.

There were certainly people like that in the Bay Area. Just in Berkeley, they had shit like the "punk rock police" trying to tell you what to think.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

They still give food to homeless people. There is a can drive at the show I'm going to. I've met Jeff Ott quite a few times, he's a speedfreak who alienated virtually everyone around him. I'll remember him mostly for butting my cigarettes while I slept at Ellsworth House.

OEC

so what, in addition to paying however much arena rock tickets cost for a big band like that, what 40 dollars? YOU can bring your own food to donate to homeless people, and out of the kindness of thier hearts Greenday will drive it over to the homeless shelter, only it's not even going to be Green Day themselves that drive it over there. Yeah, what a bunch of humanitarians.

Is this a negativity toward the "scene"? you're goddamn right it's a negativity toward people that are just out to make a buck and then have the audacity to pretend like they are so morally righteous. THAT'S the negativity.