This is about Religion

**Nuada_Airgetlam** · 03-01-2005

OK the thing is I am getting sick and tired of people running away from me when I say I am a Christian. Below is how I feel about the fire and brimstone approach that seems so prevalent and popular today in Christianity.

That is what a lot of people say when trying to convert others to their religion. What about the good happy stuff huh? Like the lack of pain and suffering after all is said. The fact that good wins in the end and the fact everything no matter how bad has a reason. Or let us pray for these poor wretched tattooed freaks they do not know that they are disfiguring your temple. OR some such. Come on wake up people you convert more with words of honey and truth and peace and calm serenity. Not by telling them what cannot be done but what they can do.

**KilLAtomiK** · 03-01-2005

well im catholic and yes i do believe in god. however im not to sure about jesus i mean sure he was a great guy and junk but i always kinda thought he was an imposter. plus there are things people can learn from the bible the most important being the ten comandments. the problem is some people take religion a bit to far and it makes the rest look bad

**Morning Glory** · 03-01-2005

I know how you feel. because of that bullshit Fear conditioning tactic that's long been a recruitment stapple of Christianity and the long history of atrocities commited by the church I was wholey Anti-christian and all things associated with it for a very long time. I also considered myself an athiest mostly because my definition of what God is is so different from the christian concept that I don't even like to use the word God to describe it, because the common meaning attributed to the word God is nothing like my association with what the word is supposed to mean. I still would call myself that because my beliefs are closer associated to conventional "athiesm" than to conventional thiesm.
but going about things that way is really hard, because it turns a lot of people off, just like non-christians generalise and are turned off by you. and it took me a long time to get over that attitude and realize that me being just as closed minded isn't going to change anything. Now I can get together with christians and talk about sprituality because I focus on the things that we both agree on, instead of all the things that we disagree about.

**Morning Glory** · 03-01-2005

I can read the bible and relate to it in a different way then most people. like for example jesus said "the only way to God is through me" well most people would look at that and say ok, well if you don't believe in Jesus, you won't go to heaven ( and most do look at it that way, in fact). but the way I look at it is, what does Jesus mean when he says "God"? does it really mean the same "God" that's described in Genesis, or are we just assuming that? and if maybe it is just an assumption and not the entire truth, then it leads to question what he means by "God" and maybe a totally different meaning than we've previously thought.

**One Eyed Cat** · 03-01-2005

I am an Orthodox Christian by birth. I believe we make our own destiny in life, regardless of whether we follow a set of religious precepts for a day or throughout our lives. I have become, in a sense, a believer again. Events in my life and overseas have made it impossible to deny the good in the world. I believe that endurance and overcoming are greater values than a given set of personal achievements, money, or the pursuit of materialism and pleasure. Believe me, I have sought out and achieved every form of pleasure I could think of. I think, in the end, it is the desire towards the good that motivates and drives us to meet our destinies.

However, I believe that we must embrace the darkness and incorporate it into our beings. There are no saints, there are no sinners. We all will play these roles at some time in our journey thru life. I identify myself as Orthodox in terms of a cultural space that helped color my journey. My choices have been my own. Obviously, I too would reject the fire and brimstone tactics which annoy you.

OEC

**One Eyed Cat** · 03-01-2005

Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I can read the bible and relate to it in a different way then most people. like for example jesus said "the only way to God is through me" well most people would look at that and say ok, well if you don't believe in Jesus, you won't go to heaven ( and most do look at it that way, in fact). but the way I look at it is, what does Jesus mean when he says "God"? does it really mean the same "God" that's described in Genesis, or are we just assuming that? and if maybe it is just an assumption and not the entire truth, then it leads to question what he means by "God" and maybe a totally different meaning than we've previously thought.

OEC

**Evilbink** · 03-01-2005

I still don't understand why people want/need religion. When will we start to decide for ourselves what our lives mean, and stop searching for someone to "save" us. Evilbink = Anti-Religion

**Nuada_Airgetlam** · 03-02-2005

who says we are searching?

**killerkat** · 03-02-2005

"he likes it,hey mickey"

**killerkat** · 03-02-2005

Originally Posted by killerkat

"he likes it,hey mickey"

haha, sorry guys wrong thread,oops....haha........

**Nuada_Airgetlam** · 03-02-2005

um yeah...

23* · 03-02-2005

Originally Posted by killerkat

"he likes it,hey mickey"

23* · 03-02-2005

The problem for most people is that they fail to see that the way they look at the world is just that, a way. When are people going to understand that they may be wrong?

**Ellis** · 03-02-2005

" am an Orthodox Christian by birth. I believe we make our own destiny in life, regardless of whether we follow a set of religious precepts for a day or throughout our lives. I have become, in a sense, a believer again. Events in my life and overseas have made it impossible to deny the good in the world. I believe that endurance and overcoming are greater values than a given set of personal achievements, money, or the pursuit of materialism and pleasure. Believe me, I have sought out and achieved every form of pleasure I could think of. I think, in the end, it is the desire towards the good that motivates and drives us to meet our destinies.

However, I believe that we must embrace the darkness and incorporate it into our beings. There are no saints, there are no sinners. We all will play these roles at some time in our journey thru life. I identify myself as Orthodox in terms of a cultural space that helped color my journey. My choices have been my own. Obviously, I too would reject the fire and brimstone tactics which annoy you.

OEC"

I have decided, without a doubt, that OEC rocks. I rarely need to say what I want to because some sly fox who shall go unnamed and one eyed has allready beat me to it. I bow my hat to you, oh master of the "beating Ellis to it" school of martial arts.

**Forestghost** · 03-02-2005

Ok, so I'm going go out on a limb here....why bother trying to convert? This is religion, not politics. You believe in what you believe in because of how YOU feel. People know how to read...people are exposed to a variety of religions on a day to day, indirect basis. If someone is looking for something to believe in....then they should discover it for themselves. Why try to "sell" your religion (good points or fire and brimstone)?

It's funny how whenever I tell someone who is strongly religious that I'm an athiest, they always start asking me why, and try to pursuade me that their way is the right way. I don't even start the conversation...it usually starts by them asking me if I believe in God. I don't go around trying to convert religious people to athieism....so why do you try to change me? I've researched a variety of religions and no amount of talking or propaganda will make me pick one over the other. My personal feelings are the only thing involved. I'm thinking that trying to convert people is like trying to increase the number of members in your cult....if you believe strongly enough in your religion, then have faith that people will discover it on their own!!!

**hewhoisagod** · 03-02-2005

I believe that people shouldn't force their ideals on others. I'm not a christian, but I've studied the religion. My favorite thing to point out, especially to evangelicals, is that Jesus said not to pray in public. I'm sure God's going "what the fuck are they talking about?" right now.

**tinstar** · 03-02-2005

All religions are the same. They base their "philosophy" on the whim and desire of an unseen Supreme Being and profess some greater connection to said Supreme Being than the rest of the masses. In this day of reason, there is, admittedly, no call to believe that there might not be a "God," but the days when religion had a controlling hold on humans are just about over. Christianity, Islam, Judaism... Doesn't matter. They are all a part of the same evil control mechanism. Even "spiritualists" miss the point. Read any book by a new ager, Buddhist, or spiritualist and the answer is really no different than the Big 3. They encourage you to "empty your thoughts" and "seek your spirit guide"; once again, asking you to trust in the whims and desires of an unseen (and non-existent) force. Empty your thoughts? It is a known principle of physics that empty things desire nothing more than to be filled. Empty your mind and someone is sure to come along and fill it. Eventually, reason MUST win over religion. Otherwise, humans beings are destined to live in a world where reading something like Blue Blood is a "sin" and (see comment in thread about "Boyfriend shoots girl") tribal societies continue to mutilate women's bodies according to the conscripts of their non-existent, folkloric deities.

**TheDeathKnight** · 03-02-2005

I'm with ForestGhost on this one...

I HATE when they bother me, hassle me, and try to convert me...
That is what makes me pissed off at them more than anything.
I leave them alone. I do not hassle them, or try to change their views...
Why can't they leave ME alone?
If they think I am going to hell, who cares?
Not me.
So why should they care?
I'm a sinner, so let me go burn in hell.
Why hassle me?

I know for a fact, that if I woke up Christians every weekend,
and went to their door, preaching satanism, they would get
pretty annoyed pretty fast. They would want me to keep
my religion to myself. I just wish they could do the same...

**Tequila Zaire** · 03-02-2005

I'm not as anti-religion as some of you here nor do I buy into the whole "religion does not matter" or "It's used to control people" nonsense. People can be controled by many things other than religion (governments, sex, money, drugs, love) and to say spirituality in any form does not matter...well then you really miss on the side of life that absolute reason cannot give us. The great parts of our lives (imagination, wonder, dreams) all stem from a lack of reason and reality...as much as it's been said...you need a balance of both.

It's naive if you see religion as this set of rules by an unseen higher being that you must follow. Anyone who believes that is missing the whole point. Your spirituality is defined by you...no one else. How you practice it , how you follow it, and more importantly how you use it cannot be forced upon you in the important parts of your mind or soul if you believe in it.

Science cannot gives us the answers about God in any form and nor should it. That's not it's purpose. Even great scientists follow a faith and they are the best examples of what is good about religion. Reason has its place in the world but so does spirituality. Neither can dominate over the other without one losing a deep sense of the world around them. Not all of us live in reality and not all of us see the world the way it really is. Most of us are in the middle where we accept some parts and choose to make up the others (much to the aggrivation of others.)

Their is no penalty for dismissing a God in your life...because if you choose not to buy into it...then it has no hold or place in your life. The only ones who will say otherwise are those who actually follow a faith or critics. If you as an individual choose NOT to have a spiritual side...then really it matters little what the faiths of the world say because it really has no bearing on how you live your life. Unless you are easily intimidated or fearful their is little sense to worry about it...yet for some odd reason many who deny religion tend to be the most vocal about it's negative aspects. You'd be surprised how many people who follow a faith tend NOT to think about Hell, damnation, or punishment. Look past that and see why so many find it a comfort, joy, need, and aspect of their life that gives them more than is possible in a world of absolute reason.

Nothing can prove a religion is wrong...nothing can prove that absolute reason is the way to live...yet neither seem to vanish or cancel one another out for people. Yet at the end of the day BOTH sides are sayign the same thing "Believe in what I say...it's the way to live" or "It's the only way for humanity to blah blah blah"...Religion in all forms is a deep part of humanity that finds itseld even in areas one thinks it's absent from. Deny it if you wish, live without it if you must, but don't focus so much on what makes it wrong without some awareness of what makes it right. Reason itself is based on looking at things with a very truthful eye and truth is easily corrupted by ones own emotions and unless one can figure out a way to take human emotion out of truth you can't have a world of absolute reason in all parts of human society.

We're simply too good as a species of making out actions, beleifs, and view of the truth "better than the other guys".

Forcing a religion or any way of thinking is wrong yet so is being frustrated by the fact not everyone sees ones own way of thinking. It's probably the worst way to live...the world will never follow one way of thought just like it will not follow one religion even if the supreme being is the same.

Their are parts of Humanity still left very much a mystery and as much as we think we've explored it all...it seems we are just getting started. It's just odd that fundementalists and hardline anti-religion critics think in the same extreme way were everything is an absolute. You have to wonder what causes that kind of human mentality...seeing everything in black in white has a pretty corrupting effect on a person yet it's a corruption happily entered into.

**Tequila Zaire** · 03-02-2005

Well conversion is not th exclusive practice of religion...how many of you have said "You gotta listen to this band" or "You gotta see this movie"...same with a religion. It's human nature to expose others to something we think is amazing. We like to share things even when we think we don't. Human nature people.

23* · 03-02-2005

yeah but a lot of the time there's nothing particularly "spiritual" about organised religion. People who deny religion aren't all behaviourists and empiricists, plenty of the people who dismiss religion exercise their spiritual selves at much higher frequency than other more orthodox believers.

people can be controlled by many things true and one of them most certainly is organised religion.

Maybe you're right, nothing can prove a religion wrong, but believe me, its not so difficult to prove that its actions are malignant.

I'm all for the individual choosing his/her own spiritual path and I'd rather see my friends looking into the unknown with their own eyes rather than eyes lent to them by their 'superiors'.

**tinstar** · 03-02-2005

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

People can be controled by many things other than religion (governments, sex, money, drugs, love)

Religion has ties into all of these areas and defines how many people feel about them. Government = church = totalitarian/monarchic state ruled by king/pope/ayatollah. Sex = pleasure of flesh = evil = guilt. Money = human reward for human achievement = evil = guilt. Drugs = escape from guilt, except for alcohol, which is okay. Love = putting thy neighbors "feelings" and desires above your own = self-sacrifice = death.

People can be controlled by lots of things, but not many are as universal and sinister as religion. Besides, that is our topic, not any of this other stuff.

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

The great parts of our lives (imagination, wonder, dreams) all stem from a lack of reason and reality...as much as it's been said...you need a balance of both.

So there should be a balance between fantasy and reality? Black and white? Lies and truth? In discussing good vs. evil, we talk about the "gray areas" but these are just things we come up with in our minds to alleviate our resonsibilities. There is no gray area. Either the doctor took out your appendix properly and you suffered no ill effects, or he didn't. Gray is just light black.

Imagination, wonder, and dreams are not unreasonable. These are the sprouts of our human inventiveness. True, you can imagine/dream anything you want, no matter how unreal it may seem. Now, try making it a reality without using reason... You fail.

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

It's naive if you see religion as this set of rules by an unseen higher being that you must follow. Anyone who believes that is missing the whole point. Your spirituality is defined by you...no one else.

I would define religion and spirituality as two different things. Religion is a very concrete thing - many of them exist in the world. Spirituality is more vague, intangible, based on your emotions.

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Science cannot gives us the answers about God in any form and nor should it.

Why not? Why can't reason provide us with the answer? The Catholic church once held the teachings of Galileo as heresy, saying he could never be correct in our Godly world. A few centuries later and we are using his mathematics to land on the moon! And why shouldn't we have an answer about God?

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Nothing can prove a religion is wrong...

That's part of the plan. No one knows until they die, if then. This is where the fear and manipulation come in.

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

nothing can prove that absolute reason is the way to live...

Then nothing can prove your argument to be correct because you are trying to use "reason" to prove your statements correct.

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

"Believe in what I say...it's the way to live" or "It's the only way for humanity to blah blah blah"...Religion in all forms is a deep part of humanity that finds itseld even in areas one thinks it's absent from. Deny it if you wish, live without it if you must, but don't focus so much on what makes it wrong without some awareness of what makes it right. Reason itself is based on looking at things with a very truthful eye and truth is easily corrupted by ones own emotions and unless one can figure out a way to take human emotion out of truth you can't have a world of absolute reason in all parts of human society.

We're simply too good as a species of making out actions, beleifs, and view of the truth "better than the other guys".

Forcing a religion or any way of thinking is wrong yet so is being frustrated by the fact not everyone sees ones own way of thinking. It's probably the worst way to live...the world will never follow one way of thought just like it will not follow one religion even if the supreme being is the same.

I'm tired of typing so I will sum it up. I would never try to convert you or anyone else. My purpose for typing all of this is to exercise my brain - to challenge my own ideas. It gives me a chance to check my premises. Besides, you seem like a cool person and it is kinda fun bouncing ideas around with ya

**Tequila Zaire** · 03-02-2005

Originally Posted by 23*

yeah but a lot of the time there's nothing particularly "spiritual" about organised religion. People who deny religion aren't all behaviourists and empiricists, plenty of the people who dismiss religion exercise their spiritual selves at much higher frequency than other more orthodox believers.

people can be controlled by many things true and one of them most certainly is organised religion.

Maybe you're right, nothing can prove a religion wrong, but believe me, its not so difficult to prove that its actions are malignant.

I'm all for the individual choosing his/her own spiritual path and I'd rather see my friends looking into the unknown with their own eyes rather than eyes lent to them by their 'superiors'.

That's the fundemental problem...too many see the religion and the organization that uses it as one in the same. You can be catholic and follow little to nothing of what the Vatican says you should (an issue going on heavily in U.S. Catholics). The organization part of a religion should not dicate the faiths spirituality jsut like organized sports should not dicate the "soul" of a game...same goes for movies, music, literature, etc.

In terms of people who deny organized religion and persuit spirituality...that's really not the point. Religion...spiritualiy is not about the organizational aspect. That's what continues to get lost...it's something far more personal and while organization can help a faith and it's followers it's the be all end all aspect of it.

I'm not great fan of organized faiths but for all their ill and evil aspects they do some good for people and society. It's simply a matter of choosing if you want to be a part of it or go your own path....but to deny spirituality as a whole for the persuit of absolute reason and expect all to follow...well that's just being a bit of a fool. Not because the persuit of absolute reason is foolish but for exepcting others to follow you...that's the problem with organized religion...too much following not enough leading or exploration.

**Tequila Zaire** · 03-02-2005