Senator Larry Craig: Predator or Prey?

[One Eyed Cat]

Has any formed an opinion on this nonsense? I mostly believe Craig to be incredibly foolish. Entrapment? Solicitation? Social Significance? I don't know what, if anything, to make of this. I do respect the fact that the Democratic Candidates have refused to comment.

TRANSCRIPT: Police Interview With Sen. Larry Craig

Police Officers Question Craig After Arrest at Minneapolis Airport

Aug. 30, 2007 —

The following is an unedited transcript of an interview between police Sgt. Dave Karsnia and police Detective Noel Nelson with Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, regarding a June 11 incident at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Audiotapes and a transcript of the interview were released today.
Craig was arrested June 11 in an airport bathroom by Karsnia, who was working undercover. Karsnia said Craig exhibited behavior in the men's restroom that was "often used by persons communicating a desire to engage in sexual conduct."
Craig later pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct. When news of the arrest hit the press Monday, Craig issued a statement saying, "I should have had the advice of counsel in resolving this matter. In hindsight, I should not have pled guilty. I was trying to handle this matter myself quickly and expeditiously."
Under pressure from Republican party leaders, Craig stepped down from his Senate committee leadership posts.

Transcript below:


Investigative Sgt. Dave Karsnia #4211 and Detective Noel Nelson of the Minneapolis Police Department intert 1162
(NN) INTERVIEW WITH Larry Craig (LC) Case 07002008
Larry Craig: Am I gonna have to fight you in court?
Dave Karsnia: No. No. I'm not gonna go to court unless you want me there.
LC: Cause I don't want to be in court either.
DK: Ok. I don't either.
(inaudible) DK: Urn, here's the way it works, urn, you'll you'll be released today, okay.
LC: Okay.
DK: All right. I, I know I can bring you to jail, but that's not my goal here, okay? (inaudible)
LC: Don't do that. You You
DK: I'm not going to bring you to jail
LC: You solicited me.
DK: Okay. We're going to get, We're going to get into that. (inaudible)
LC: Okay.
DK: But there's the, there there's two ways, yes. You can, you can, ah, you can go to court.
You can plead guilty.
LC: Yep.
DK: There'll be a fine. You won't have to explain anything. (inaudible) I know. LC: Right.
DK: And you'll pay a fine, you be (inaudible), done. Or if you want to plead not guilty, ah, and I, I can't make these decisions for you.
LC: No, no. Just tell me where I am (inaudible) I need to make this flight.
DK: Okay. Okay. And then I go to people that are not guilty, then I would have to come to court and end up testifying. So those are the two things, okay. Did I explain that part?
LC Yes
DK Okay Urn, ah, I'm just going to read you your rights real quick, okay? You got it on?
Noel Nelson: Yep.
DK Okay.
DK: Ah, the date is 6/11/07 at 1228 hours. Urn, Mr. Craig?
LC: Yes.
DK. Sorry about that. (ringing phone)
DK: You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer now or have a present, a lawyer present now or anytime during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you without cost. Do you understand each of these rights the way I have explained them to you?
LC: I do.
DK: Do you wish to talk to us at this time? LC I do
DK Okay Urn, I just wanna start off with a your side of the story, okay. So, a
LC: So I go into the bathroom here as I normally do, I'm a commuter too here.
DK: Okay.
LC: I sit down, urn, to go to the bathroom and ah, you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, ah, because I reached down and scooted over and urn, the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says Police. Now, urn, (sigh) that's about as far as I can take it, I don't know of anything else. Ah, your foot came toward mine, mine came towards yours, was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes. I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.
DK: Okay. I don't want to get into a pissing match here.
LC: We're not going to.
DK: Good. Urn,
LC: I don't, ah, I am not gay, I don't do these kinds of things and...
DK: It doesn't matter, I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here's your stuff back sir. Urn, I don't care about sexual preference.
LC: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.
DK: Right.
LC: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.
DK: This isn't entrapment.
LC: All right.
DK: Urn, you you're skipping some parts here, but what what about your hand?
LC What about it? I reached down, my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor, I picked it up
DK: Okay.
LC What about my hand?
DK: Well, you're not being truthful with me, I'm kinda disappointed in you Senator. I'm real disappointed in you right now. Okay. I'm not, just so you know, just like everybody, 1,1,1, treat with dignity, I try to pull them away from the situation
LC: 1,1
DK: and not embarrass them.
LC: I appreciate that.
DK: And I
LC: You did that after the stall.
DK: I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.
LC: I don't want you to take me to jail and I think.
DK: I'm not gonna take you to jail as long as your cooperative but I'm not gonna lie. We...
LC: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes. It did.
DK: Okay, sir. We deal with people that lie to us everyday. LC: I'm sure you do.
DK: I'm sure you do to sir.
LC: And gentleman so do I.
DK: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.
LC: No, I don't think I am.
DK: Okay, so what I'm telling you, I don't want to be lied to.
LC: Okay.
DK: Okay. So we'll start over, you're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine and that will be it. Okay. I don't call media, I don't do any of that type of crap.
LC: Fine.
DK: Okay.
LC: Fine.
DK: All right, so let's start from the beginning. You went in the bathroom.
LC: I went in the bathroom.
DK: And what did you do when you...
LC: 1 stood beside the wall, waiting for a stall to open. I got in the stall, sat down, and I started to go to the bathroom. Ah, did our feet come together, apparently they did bump. Well, I won't dispute that.
DK: Okay. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other other stalls were open. LC: They were at the time. At the time I entered, 1,1, at the time I entered, I stood and waited.
DK: Okay.
LC: They were all busy, you know?
DK: Were you (inaudible) out here while you were waiting? I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers and then look up. Play with your fingers and then look up.
LC: Did I glance at your stall? I was glancing at a stall right beside yours waiting for a fella to empty it. I saw him stand up and therefore I thought it was going to empty.
DK: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?
LC: Oh a minute or two at the most.
DK: Okay. And when you went in the stalls, then what? LC: Sat down.
DK: Okay. Did you do anything with your feet?
LC: Positioned them, I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.
DK: I understand.
LC: I had to spread my legs.
DK: Okay.
LC: When I lower my pants so they won't slide.
DK: Okay.
LC: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I, I looked down once, your foot was close to mine.
DK Yes.
LC Did we bump? Ah, you said so, I don't recall that, but apparently we were close.
DK Yeah, well your foot did touch mine, on my side of the stall.
LC: All right.
DK: Okay. And then with the hand. Urn, how many times did you put your hand under the stall?
LC: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up.
DK: Okay. Was your was your palm down or up when you were doing that?
LC: I don't recall.
DK: Okay. I recall your palm being up. Okay.
LC: All right.
DK: When you pick up a piece of paper off the ground, your palm would be down, when you pick something up.
LC: Yeah, probably would be. I recall picking the paper up.
DK: And I know it's hard to describe here on tape but actually what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls, you're actually ta touching the bottom of the stall divider.
LC: I don't recall that.
DK: You don't recall
LC: I don't believe I did that. I don't.
DK: I saw, I saw
LC: I don't do those things.
DK: I saw your left hand and I could see the gold wedding ring when it when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that. LC: Wait a moment, my left hand was over here.
DK: I saw there's a...
LC: My right hand was next to you.
DK: I could tell it with my ah, I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.
LC: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court and I, I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.
DK: But I'm telling you that I could see that so I know that's your left hand. Also I could see a gold ring on this finger, so that's obvious it was the left hand.
LC: Yeah, okay. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.
DK: Okay. You, you travel through here frequently correct? LC I do
DK Um,
LC Almost weekly.

[One Eyed Cat]

DK: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?
LC: I go to that bathroom regularly
DK I mean for any type of other activities.
LC: No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.
DK: It's embarrassing.
LC: Well it's embarrassing for both.. I'm not gonna fight you.
DK: I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point. I would respect you and I still respect you. I don't disrespect you but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.
DK: It's not a (inaudible) I'm getting from somebody else. I'm (inaudible)
LC: (inaudible) (Talking over each other)
DK: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...
LC: I admit I put my hand down.
DK: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.
LC: No. Wait a moment.
DK: And I, I'm not dumb, you can say I don't recall...
LC: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.
DK: it's not that hard for me to reach. (inaudible) it's not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.
LC: (inaudible) you do. All right.
DK: I just, I just, I guess, I guess I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.
LC: Yes, they do. (inaudible)
DK: unbelievable, unbelievable.
LC: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...
DK: And (inaudible) respect right now though
LC: But I didn't use my left hand.
DK I thought that you...
LC: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.
DK: Was your gold ring on your right hand at anytime today.
LC: Of course not, try to get it off, look at it.
DK: Okay. Then it was your left hand, I saw it with my own eyes.
LC: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.
DK: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?
NN Uh, no
DK: Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 1236 interview is done.
LC: Okay

[Exquisite]

Guilty as sin, and honestly don't really care about his sexual orientation other than he has voted against gay rights (hypocritical much?). Thats a public bathroom, kids go in there ... shiesh man!

[One Eyed Cat]

Guilty as sin, and honestly don't really care about his sexual orientation other than he has voted against gay rights (hypocritical much?). Thats a public bathroom, kids go in there ... shiesh man!

I disagree with a lot of Craig's views. This is just a really close call. If more had transpired, I would agree with you. I just question the possibility of entrapment. Craig may have foolishly believed pleading guilty to a lesser charge would keep it out of the media.

I can't say I'm terribly sympathetic to the man. I don't care about his "sexual orientation", but it will be an issue de facto. I am just wondering what did and did not transpire here.

JT

[Donald Rilea]

Interesting. The psychological and linguistic manipulations being used by Sergeant Karsina with Craig are quite apparent, and very interesting to witness here.

As for Craig, well, call me stupid here, but it seems like, quite understandably, he's in shock over being detained and interviewed, especially for an alleged offence that, at its very core, would go against everything he's publicly stood for for nearly thirty years now.

Is he being deliberately evasive???? I don't know. He well could be, but Craig could also simply be, for lack of a better term, quite simply at a loss for words in his own defence.

Ain't legally trained, but, I would guess that a reasonably intelligent attorney might, and I say might, be able, especially without more tangible physical evidence, to throw enough reasonable doubt into the minds of at least some jury members, and exonerate his client of these charges.

By the way, this dialogue in this transcript could be lifted, with a few changes here and there, right out of an episode of Da Vinci's Inquest, the CBC crime drama about a coroner in Vancouver B.C, of which I am a fan.

The hesitations, interruptions, pressured speech, and low-level cat and mouse games are all eerily similar to what one might see and hear in an episode of that show.

At times, I could almost hear Nicholas Campbell(Da Vinci's Inquest star)'s voice doing Sgt. Karsina's questions.

The writers and producers of that show seem to have done their homework!!!!

Thanks Jackie, for posting this.

Verrry interesting, indeed.

[One Eyed Cat]

Interesting. The psychological and linguistic manipulations being used by Sergeant Karsina with Craig are quite apparent, and very interesting to witness here.

As for Craig, well, call me stupid here, but it seems like, quite understandably, he's in shock over being detained and interviewed, especially for an alleged offence that, at its very core, would go against everything he's publicly stood for for nearly thirty years now.

Is he being deliberately evasive???? I don't know. He well could be, but Craig could also simply be, for lack of a better term, quite simply at a loss for words in his own defence.

Ain't legally trained, but, I would guess that a reasonably intelligent attorney might, and I say might, be able, especially without more tangible physical evidence, to throw enough reasonable doubt into the minds of at least some jury members, and exonerate his client of these charges.

By the way, this dialogue in this transcript could be lifted, with a few changes here and there, right out of an episode of Da Vinci's Inquest, the CBC crime drama about a coroner in Vancouver B.C, of which I am a fan.

The hesitations, interruptions, pressured speech, and low-level cat and mouse games are all eerily similar to what one might see and hear in an episode of that show.

At times, I could almost hear Nicholas Campbell(Da Vinci's Inquest star)'s voice doing Sgt. Karsina's questions.

The writers and producers of that show seem to have done their homework!!!!

Thanks Jackie, for posting this.

Verrry interesting, indeed.

I believe Craig would have been acquitted had he been charged with solicitation. The thing being: The trial would have also ended his career. My sense is Craig may have been trolling for a sexual partner, but my sense is not enough though. Based on the facts, I cannot unequivocally judge the man. His stance on LGBT rights disguists me, but something about this just strikes me as off.

JT

[Donald Rilea]

Won't disagree with you on either the man, his stance, or the possibility that this is somehow quite off.

Doesn't make Craig a martyr, but I think you may be right here.

[Bikerpunk]

What he is is plucked and fucked.

The Republicans have yet another gay issue to distract people with

[One Eyed Cat]

Craig's an asshole, no doubt there. He has handled this very poorly, regardless of what happened. I'm staying out of the MPLS Airport Restrooms though as well. I don't know what the "signals" are.

JT

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

The big question is, did he do something illegal?

While it is fun to play "gotcha" in a case like this, and it was likely well deserved, what crime did he actually commit? The basic testimony of the officer seems to be, "he totally wanted me, he gave the secret handshake and everything!" Is that really grounds for arrest these days?

Craig can go stuff a goat, but the fact that someone, anyone can be arrested and have their lives ruined for a wink and a secret handshake seems pretty ass to me. I would rather have people fucking in the mens room than cops hauling people off on shit this thin.

[Bikerpunk]

I'd like to know how the cop knew the foot tap bumping against the dude in the next stall was an invitation to take it up the ass.

Methinks the cop is compensating...

[One Eyed Cat]

The big question is, did he do something illegal?

While it is fun to play "gotcha" in a case like this, and it was likely well deserved, what crime did he actually commit? The basic testimony of the officer seems to be, "he totally wanted me, he gave the secret handshake and everything!" Is that really grounds for arrest these days?

Craig can go stuff a goat, but the fact that someone, anyone can be arrested and have their lives ruined for a wink and a secret handshake seems pretty ass to me. I would rather have people fucking in the mens room than cops hauling people off on shit this thin.

Exactly.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

I'd like to know how the cop knew the foot tap bumping against the dude in the next stall was an invitation to take it up the ass.

Methinks the cop is compensating...

Yeah. That's the part I have trouble with. That just isn't enough to ruin someone's life.

JT

[Bikerpunk]

Maybe the cop's a Democrat.

More likely a Republican, come to think about it.

Cause the GOP needs a distraction while Dumbya quietly borrows another $50B for his little Empire in the sand box.

[Donald Rilea]

It's this kind of police behaviour and far, far worse, back in the "good old days" before Stonewall and the GLBT movement, that provoked the Stonewall Riots in '69, and, long before that, corrupted police and other political and social establishments by making it far easier to blackmail men and women caught in flagrante delicto, shall we say, or something like it.

Maybe am wrong here, but it seems to me that even a social or political conservative who's truly interested in morality, especially public morality, might be far more concerned about the corrupting effects of laws and law enforcement behaviour that only end up grossly undermining a society's legal and other underpinnings.

Worrying about what consenting adults do behind closed doors, while ignoring or down-playing the potential and real effects of police and legal corruption that comes from criminalising such behaviour, is like worrying about pimples, when one has an infected cut that's turning gangrenous.

The first's a very slight disfigurement, while the latter, if let run rampant, is fatal.

[Exquisite]

My issue with what happened here is that he knew what was going on, my first comment would be: " ... Wait what, I'm sorry this signal means what ... people do this in public washrooms!"

Again I don't care what his sexual orientation is, frankly I only care about the orientation of people I'm trying to get into my bed.

He knew exactly why he was in trouble, he tried to back peddle a bunch of times with no luck.

I'm 100% sure he was doing exactly what they thought he was doing.

And this wasn't behind closed doors, it was in public where a little kid could walk in.

By the way, this dialogue in this transcript could be lifted, with a few changes here and there, right out of an episode of Da Vinci's Inquest, the CBC crime drama about a coroner in Vancouver B.C, of which I am a fan.

The hesitations, interruptions, pressured speech, and low-level cat and mouse games are all eerily similar to what one might see and hear in an episode of that show.

At times, I could almost hear Nicholas Campbell(Da Vinci's Inquest star)'s voice doing Sgt. Karsina's questions.

The writers and producers of that show seem to have done their homework!!!!

That show is indeed based on a Vancouver coroner's experience, interestingly he then became mayor of Vancouver (hence Da Vinci's City Hall), still not sure why I voted for the guy. For all of his lofty ideas he didn't fix what I wanted him to i.e. the downtown east side drug /homeless issue. He is now a Canadian Senator. Not a bad climb for him.

Larry Campbell (the actual guy) was a consultant on that show for quite a while so they made sure to get it very realistic. But thats the CBC for you.

[helcyon]

Larry Campbell (the actual guy) was a consultant on that show for quite a while so they made sure to get it very realistic. But thats the CBC for you.

very informative commentry ... interesting

I find it extremely ironic that it was the cops that drove a lot of prostitution and counter-sex culture into the back alleys, playgrounds, parks and toilets and now they are bustin' you there as well. This is hypocracy multi-dimensional... including poor old Larry who can fuck off and die.

[Bikerpunk]

Apparently an Idaho paper did some legwork. This is not the first time Wide Stance Craig has done this sort of thing.

[helcyon]

apparently not if he knew the right way to rub his ring under the partition or wotever.

yeah sure kids could walk in etc. but there's a reason this happens in toilets and not out in the open.

[Donald Rilea]

My issue with what happened here is that he knew what was going on, my first comment would be: " ... Wait what, I'm sorry this signal means what ... people do this in public washrooms!"

Again I don't care what his sexual orientation is, frankly I only care about the orientation of people I'm trying to get into my bed.

He knew exactly why he was in trouble, he tried to back peddle a bunch of times with no luck.

I'm 100% sure he was doing exactly what they thought he was doing.

And this wasn't behind closed doors, it was in public where a little kid could walk in.




That show is indeed based on a Vancouver coroner's experience, interestingly he then became mayor of Vancouver (hence Da Vinci's City Hall), still not sure why I voted for the guy. For all of his lofty ideas he didn't fix what I wanted him to i.e. the downtown east side drug /homeless issue. He is now a Canadian Senator. Not a bad climb for him.

Larry Campbell (the actual guy) was a consultant on that show for quite a while so they made sure to get it very realistic. But thats the CBC for you.

Ta', Exquisite, for the background on Larry Campbell(any relation to Nicholas??? ), and Da Vinci's Inquest.

Oddly enough, there was another CBC show about a crusading coroner, only in Toronto of the mid'60's, when the show was made, and that was also based on a real coroner's experiences. It starred the late John Vernon(Dean Wormer from Animal House, for those of you who may remember that flick). Can't remember that name of the show right now. Will have to look up John Vernon on IMDB later on, and find out that way.

Never saw the show myself, but remember reading a profile of Vernon in a fan magazine sometime back in the '90's, and it was mentioned.

Anyhow, thanks again, Exquisite, for the info on Larry Campbell, and am sorry that he didn't work out the way he advertised himself and his programmes to work.

Happens that way in politics and in general so much of the time that, if one ain't careful, one can end up constantly muttering to oneself in public, "God-Damned son-of-bitches, blankety-blank, blankety-blank-blank-blank!!!!". LOL

That's why humour's so important, 'cos she or he who laughs, lasts.

It's also why Larry Craig's little imbroglio is also one of the low comedy moments of the year in American politics.

Nothing funnier or better than seeing a hypocrite hoist on his own petard, whether it's Craig or Bill Bennett of the "Book Of Virtues" fame, who loved his drinkin' and gamblin' in Vegas, along with, if a Las Vegas dominatrix can be taken at her word, perhaps a bit of the old S&M Slap and Tickle action.

As for Craig, well, prior to last week, I was happily ignorant of his existence and will be equally as happy for him to return to the obscurity that he so richly deserves, where he can bugger cattle on his ranch all he wants, for all I care.

At least, he won't be making public policy again. But, this being America, one never knows.

[bohoki]

this is the perfect example that talking to the police can never help you ask for representation off the bat and respond with that to any question remember what the army says "name rank serial number" they know there is nothing you can say to help your position

he could have got off it he said nothing (no jury would convict for these weird unknown bathroom manuvers) anything short of catching him in a glory hole he could have got away but his guilty conscience gave him away

they should teach this in all schools

[Amelia G]

this is the perfect example that talking to the police can never help you ask for representation off the bat and respond with that to any question remember what the army says "name rank serial number" they know there is nothing you can say to help your position

he could have got off it he said nothing (no jury would convict for these weird unknown bathroom manuvers) anything short of catching him in a glory hole he could have got away but his guilty conscience gave him away

they should teach this in all schools

Ice T says not even name, rank, serial number.

"If they don't know who you are, they don't know what you've done"

[Mr Karl]

The crazy things that happen south of Canada

[One Eyed Cat]

Craig would have likely been acquitted had he shut the fuck up. It still would have ended his career though. I'm just amazed he *kept* talking. He must have foolishly believed he was really just going to pay a fine.

JT

[Bikerpunk]

HINT: Don't be gay when the government is trying to misdirect it's borrowing another fifty billion we can't afford so George W Bush can have soldiers in Iraq for a war we don't want.

[Donald Rilea]

HINT: Don't be gay when the government is trying to misdirect it's borrowing another fifty billion we can't afford so George W Bush can have soldiers in Iraq for a war we don't want.

[Michelle Aston]

My skin crawled everytime I touched down in that airport. I would get in, do my work as a pro dominatrix and get out. I think entrapment is a high probability in this case.

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/poli....asp#TopOfPage

Minneapolis is one of the few places that places mug shots on the web of its johns. They have been doing this since 2004. Not many up there now, used to be pages more, so maybe its working.

The transcript was very good read. Thanks for posting!!

[One Eyed Cat]

My skin crawled everytime I touched down in that airport. I would get in, do my work as a pro dominatrix and get out. I think entrapment is a high probability in this case.

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/poli....asp#TopOfPage

Minneapolis is one of the few places that places mug shots on the web of its johns. They have been doing this since 2004. Not many up there now, used to be pages more, so maybe its working.

The transcript was very good read. Thanks for posting!!

No problem. I live in Minneapolis. I don't think I'll be going into the men's room before or after flights. I don't know what all the signals are or whether they may correspond to something on my ipod.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

Update: Senator Craig is attempting to withdraw his guilty plea and intends to fight for his Senate seat. He's facing an uphill battle both here in MN and with the ethics committee. I don't like the man, but I'm glad he's going to put a fight. Good Luck, Senator.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/05/craig/index.html

JT

[Bikerpunk]

He's used to uphill battles. He gardens uphill constantly.