Gaza

[OliX]

Is Peace Out Of Reach?



What's your thoughts on this topic? Who do you support?

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Let's put it this way....Chances of peace in the Middle East is the same as seeing George Bush actually aquiring a brain...Next to nil.

[Velvet-Tongue]

You know how crazy certain groups in America are towards different religions/cultures/ethnicties?

How very far-right Reupublicans hate gays and non christians and want to burn them/see them made non citizens etc? The Jewish Settlers are on the same level over there.

Overbearingly opinionated, unbending "My way is the right way" type folks. With them in the heart of the countryside, in the news, and in politics there is no hope at all for a peaceful end.

The same goes for the Palestinians who don the ski-mask, the rpg and bomb vest. They're unbendingly stuck on their way being the only way.

Neither side will balance or bend. One side will have to break off for the other to get the level of satisfaction it requires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrjJ...eature=related - take the opening with a few grains of salt. But we never see this side of the conflict. and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTG073vDc7g

"This is MY LAND! God gave it to me" With beliefs like that on both sides they're fucked.

-----------------------------------------------------------

With that on the other side you have Palestinians who have experienced loss themselves, and then they go and blow up 50 innocent people in a night club.

Neither side has the moral high ground.

[Velvet-Tongue]

http://wontsomebodypleasethinkofthechildren.ytmnd.com/

[OliX]

So. Answer is clear to me. Most of you feel indifferent and/or ignorant to this matter.

That's just sad.

[TheDeathKnight]

I think what a lot of people in America don't know, and don't realize, is that Israel did indeed "take" that land from the Arabs who were there. Sure, the Jews had a history there, and it used to be their homeland. But they came over there after WW2, and took it from the people who were living there. So it's been a battle ever since.

But I think the same thing could be said about America.
We "took" this land from the native americans.
We killed them and fucked them over.
So if they were bombing us, would we feel like it was ok?
Or would we be upset that our families were killed by attacks?

The bottom line is that the violence and conflict over that land is understandable.
But you need to come up with a way to solve the problem.
Otherwise it keeps going on, and on, and on, and on...

I think the main problem is that they all picked this "holy land" as their own. If they were fine with living somewhere else, then it could work fine. I don't think anyone would have cared if the Jews had bought land in Canada somewhere, or in South America, and made that their "homeland". But because they took it from people who were there already, then they created a conflict. But that conflict still needs to be solved. I'd love it if Israel would be willing to move someplace else. But I'd also love it if the arabs in Gaza and such, could be fine with just moving to Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, and being happy there... But it's their need for that particular "holy land" that is causing all the conflict.

[Velvet-Tongue]

So. Answer is clear to me. Most of you feel indifferent and/or ignorant to this matter.

That's just sad.

So whats the answer Head Diplomat on Foreign Relations OliX?

[OliX]

So whats the answer Head Diplomat on Foreign Relations OliX?

I just said it. Indifferent and/or ignorant as in nobody cares.

Remember, original question was "What's your thoughts on this topic? Who do you support?"

[nathanmbailey]

I support the winners, enough said. The problem with that area and with the rest of the middle-east is that there has ALWAYS been fighting there and there WILL always be fighting there. I'm not religious, so I'm not about to actually pick sides on the "my god is better than your god" wars. And the whole "we were here first" thing doesn't go much better.

Needless to say, if this was the middle ages and the Crusades was going on, I'd have been nailed to a cross by now.

[Mr Karl]

i think it'll only end when one side obliterates the other.............to me it looks like just another pathetic religous load of shit war....................My moneys always on the heathens...............haven't seen any in that mess though.

My thoughts on things like this change from day to day..............what I believe is, remove all religios belief, dye everyones skin green, and see if that makes things better

[nathanmbailey]

Nah, then we'd start wars over shades of green.

[Bacchus88]

Give them 1 year to make a peace plan, 10 years to honor it, with no bloodshed. I do not care if it is the zealot in your religion or not anything this will happen to your country and cites. We will treat you as such, we are the Republic of Rome and you are Carthage. We will erase your memory from the map.

Mass Bombing I am not talking JDAMs, Carpet bombing both side declare DMZ, involve both Nato and UN. Pour concrete down every water well, pumping station, everything that give life giving water You had 50 years to work this disagreement out enough fighting enough war. If both can not live in peace, No one will live in this land....


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...04847520611793

[TheDeathKnight]

Well, if Iran gets nukes, eventually Israel and Iran will nuke each other, and the situation will be over.

[TheDeathKnight]

I just said it. Indifferent and/or ignorant as in nobody cares.

Remember, original question was "What's your thoughts on this topic? Who do you support?"

Maybe we think the conflict is stupid.

Maybe we don't think one side is right and one side is wrong.

And maybe we have perfectly good and logical reasons for thinking that.

Sure, if you live there, and your family and friends are getting blown up, you are going to take a side. But you are usually just going to take the side of the people you are part of, or the people you support. Few people in Israel or America will say that Israel is wrong. Because they are our allies. But few Arabs will say that their people are wrong. There is a long history of that area, and each side has stolen that land from each other for centuries. The "holy land" has been "owned" and occupied by Jews, Christians, and Arabs. As well as Romans, and many other ancient people. It has never been one people's homeland since the beginning of time. The Israelis are just the most recent invaders. And sure, the people that were living there, don't like it. But they weren't the original people either. Their ancestors took that land from other people hundreds of years ago. And before that the Christian crusaders took that land from Muslims, who took it from someone else, and so on and so on...

The only good answer is to make that whole area a UN owned and monitored area, that is not Jewish, not Christian, not Muslim. But allow any of them to visit any time they like. But I doubt the Israelis are going to give up control of their cities, their land, etc. So the only likely answer is that the Arabs who live in that area, need to live in harmony with the Israelis who have come to live there. Because they aren't going to leave.

[OliX]

I had strange vision yesterday. It told me that as long there is conflict in holy land, that world as we know will still be there. End of conflict there will be end of world.

[OliX]

Fact is that original Jews were Semites. Now only 10% of Jews are original ones. Semites include Arabs too. Rest is mostly Caucasian.

The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible. Original Jews and Palestinians are much closer than anyone thought they were. And from the point of both holy books both sides are wrong.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

It's always hard for me to take a side because on BOTH sides each story seems bias....Here's Israel's take on it:

Who initiated hostilities in the Six Day War?

One of the frequently heard claims against Israel is that she started the Six Day War in 1967, that Israel attacked peaceful Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967 and seized the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the "West Bank" from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria in an act of aggression.
The background to the Six Day War is quite different from the propagandistic claims of pro-Arab sources. Egypt and Israel's other neighboring countries -- all Arabs -- took actions in a series of increasingly provocative and threatening steps during May and early June of 1967, accompanied with rhetoric stating very clearly the intent to attack and destroy Israel. Attempts by Israel to negotiate, find United Nations support, or other international diplomatic resolution failed. The United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border were withdrawn without any discussion. A US plan to lift the blockcade of Israeli shipping found little support internationally.
Arab mobilization compelled Israel to mobilize its forces, 80 percent of which were reserve civilians. Israel feared slow economic strangulation because of the costs of long-term mobilization and the damage of the shipping blockcade. Israeli leaders feared the consequences of absorbing an Arab first strike against its civilian population, many of whom lived only miles from Arab-controlled territory. Incendiary Arab rhetoric threatening Israel's annihilation terrified Israeli society and contributed to the pressures to go to war.
Faced with few choices, on June 4, 1967 the Cabinet authorized the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence to decide on appropriate steps to defend the State of Israel. On June 5, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and thereby lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria by the time the war ended on June 10. Click here for a more complete article on the Course of the 1967 War.



Now from what I've read on the whole subject this shit between Arabs and the Jews started really about 1948 and then finalized in the 6 day war.

You tell me Olix....What have you read, heard, or lived? Apparently you have some take on it...If not that you would be one of the sad ones that are ignorant or just don't care. I say give the Arabs back there land, but to me I figure Israel AND the Arabs, for that matter, think it would be a sign of weakness by the Israelites and since they are surrounded by Muslims, I could understand them not wanting to show weakness.

[OliX]

Well... not including history, not including religion and such holly land bullshit, judging logically using common sense I'm all for Palestine.
I guess most of people all over the world are. Just looking up the facts is enough.

You don't think that Israel looked forward to provocations to use them as a reason for taking even more land away?

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Well... not including history, not including religion and such holly land bullshit, judging logically using common sense I'm all for Palestine.
I guess most of people all over the world are. Just looking up the facts is enough.

You don't think that Israel looked forward to provocations to use them as a reason for taking even more land away?

I honestly think a majority of Americans also believe they should give the Gaza strip back. But even then, do you really think this will end the bloodshed? From what I read, Muslims believe everybody should be Muslim. If you're not then fuck ya' then. I don't mean all Muslims believe everybody else should be killed off, but I do think alot of them do. To them, if you're not Muslim, you nothing worth their while. Do I think that this is the only religion that feels this way? No, but I do believe their religion is the one the exploits that vision of one religion the most. With this in mind, do I believe that there will be peace as long as there is a Jewish Country that is basically surrounded by Muslim countries...No. I think most countries believe that Israel should give back Gaza because yes, it's just, but also because this might create peace between the warring factions. I, myself, don't believe peace will ever be entirely achieved there....Unless Israel is taken over by Muslims.

[Raza]

So. Answer is clear to me. Most of you feel indifferent and/or ignorant to this matter.

That's just sad.

Well tbh, it's getting kinda tedious now. I'm sure the invasion of Gaza was perfectly interesting the first five or so times they did it...

[Bacchus88]

Maybe we think the conflict is stupid.

Maybe we don't think one side is right and one side is wrong.

And maybe we have perfectly good and logical reasons for thinking that.

Sure, if you live there, and your family and friends are getting blown up, you are going to take a side. But you are usually just going to take the side of the people you are part of, or the people you support. Few people in Israel or America will say that Israel is wrong. Because they are our allies. But few Arabs will say that their people are wrong. There is a long history of that area, and each side has stolen that land from each other for centuries. The "holy land" has been "owned" and occupied by Jews, Christians, and Arabs. As well as Romans, and many other ancient people. It has never been one people's homeland since the beginning of time. The Israelis are just the most recent invaders. And sure, the people that were living there, don't like it. But they weren't the original people either. Their ancestors took that land from other people hundreds of years ago. And before that the Christian crusaders took that land from Muslims, who took it from someone else, and so on and so on...

The only good answer is to make that whole area a UN owned and monitored area, that is not Jewish, not Christian, not Muslim. But allow any of them to visit any time they like. But I doubt the Israelis are going to give up control of their cities, their land, etc. So the only likely answer is that the Arabs who live in that area, need to live in harmony with the Israelis who have come to live there. Because they aren't going to leave.

your right Death knight not many will say they will not support Israel here in the US. I got into this same topic with my parents the other day. Like most here in the US, they believe they should support Israel A: is the moral thing to do B: its the christian thing to do. I myself I do not support Israel, I have been very vocal about it place. it is almost like thoughtless reaction with people get that statement, Anti-jew, your nazi... ect ect..

Why I do not support Israel isnt the nation itself. It is the effect it has had on the US. Harm that it has caused our nation and loss of life because of their act that reflect on us. Little of conflict, I have really no problem with Israel. They have pay with their blood to be there and I respect them for that. It is time to end the blood shed some how, and first post DMZ

[Ajax Knucklebones]

your right Death knight not many will say they will not support Israel here in the US. I got into this same topic with my parents the other day. Like most here in the US, they believe they should support Israel A: is the moral thing to do B: its the christian thing to do. I myself I do not support Israel, I have been very vocal about it place. it is almost like thoughtless reaction with people get that statement, Anti-jew, your nazi... ect ect..

Why I do not support Israel isnt the nation itself. It is the effect it has had on the US. Harm that it has caused our nation and loss of life because of their act that reflect on us. Little of conflict, I have really no problem with Israel. They have pay with their blood to be there and I respect them for that. It is time to end the blood shed some how, and first post DMZ

Ummm...See that always confuses me. Didn't the Jews kill Jesus? So, why is it the Christian thing to do to always back a Jewish nation enough that it is hurting a Christian filled country? Organized religion bewilders me.

I think either:

A) The U.S. is really run by Jews

or

B) Unlike the history thats written, The U.S. did know about the holocaust BEFORE we helped win the war, and we have deep guilty feelings that for years we turned our backs and acted like none of it was going on.

I vote for option B.

[inox]

Ummm...See that always confuses me. Didn't the Jews kill Jesus?

In point of fact, Jesus also was a Jew.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

In point of fact, Jesus also was a Jew.

Didn't stop the Jews from nailing his ass to the cross. He was bad for business I guess.

[thegreendevil76]

This could all have been avoided if the Jews had forgone the arid desrt land offered them by the British after WWII and just taken some nice farm land in Europe...like Bavaria.

[thegreendevil76]

Didn't stop the Jews from nailing his ass to the cross. He was bad for business I guess.

Yep, he started challenging the established religious order and the Pharisees didn't much like it. In those days when you saw guys standing around claiming to be the son of god you didn't just cross the street or put some change in their coffee cup...you stoned them as heretics (or you delivered them to your Roman overseers who conducted the executions to appease the faithful natives). Jesus was a Jew, but veered off pretty severely from the game plan which is what got him killed (allegedly).

[nathanmbailey]

Didn't the Jews kill Jesus? So, why is it the Christian thing to do to always back a Jewish nation enough that it is hurting a Christian filled country?

Could someone explain why this is a hangup for Christians? Because if I've got my history/theology straight, isn't that why the religion exists? If Jesus wasn't killed, there'd be no Christianity. What's the fucking problem? I think every Christian should go thank a Jew for the killing of Jesus.

You know, if that's what really happened.

[Amelia G]

The only way to settle all the issues in the Middle East would be to turn it all into glass. Anything short of that, and there are just going to be problems. That's just the way it is. America should mind its own fucking business. And that goes double to the British who started the whole Israel/Palestine problem in modern days by promising the same land to multiple parties.

I think the USA gets to tell everyone else what their borders are right after we start slicing states off and handing them back to the Native Americans, Spanish, French, and of course British. Some people need to learn what fait accompli means.

[Amelia G]

I think what a lot of people in America don't know, and don't realize, is that Israel did indeed "take" that land from the Arabs who were there. Sure, the Jews had a history there, and it used to be their homeland. But they came over there after WW2, and took it from the people who were living there. So it's been a battle ever since.

Absolutely false. Looking for help during WWII, which they pretty much caused with their anti-German propaganda during WWI, the British promised the same land to multiple groups of people, almost none of whom had been there for any length of time. If the whole thing was really intended to be WWII reparations or something, the Allies could have made Bavaria a Jewish homeland. Instead, they offered dry arid desert that nobody wanted to a couple different groups who had so completely no place to go that they would accept dry arid desert. If the Israelis managed to make the desert bloom and managed to hold onto the land, then I think it is theirs for as long as they can keep it.

Israel in normal non-religious dates has been officially a country since what 1948? How many people can still be alive who were born on that soil but somehow think they are not actually Israeli?

But I think the same thing could be said about America.
We "took" this land from the native americans.
We killed them and fucked them over.
So if they were bombing us, would we feel like it was ok?
Or would we be upset that our families were killed by attacks?

Very true and fairly analogous. As soon as we give Manhattan back to the folks we swindled out of it, I think we get to tell other people how to achieve "peace" by giving away everything they have.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Could someone explain why this is a hangup for Christians? Because if I've got my history/theology straight, isn't that why the religion exists? If Jesus wasn't killed, there'd be no Christianity. What's the fucking problem? I think every Christian should go thank a Jew for the killing of Jesus.

You know, if that's what really happened.

I don't think it, modernly, was much of a hang-up until Mel Gibson enhanced the idea in "Passion of The Christ". When I was growing up and actually involved in Catholicism, I was taught that people (not Jews) felt threatened by Christ and so he was nailed to a cross. We all were taught that Christ was Jewish, but his ideas didn't totally "jive" with Jewish ideas about religion, thus, Christianity was soon born. My church didn't make it a point to blame the Jews for Christ's death.

I, personally, have no problems with any religion, as long as it is a peaceful religion. I grew up in NY, so I had plenty of Jewish friends and they were no different to me than any of my other friends. I think it's hilarious that in some parts of the U.S., where there is basically no Jews, some people still actually believe Jewish people really do have horns.

My point is Bacchus says backing Israel is the Christian thing to do. Why? That's what confuses me. Why back one religion, that you are not part of, instead of some other religion.

That's why I said organized religion bewilders me.

[Mr Karl]

The only way to settle all the issues in the Middle East would be to turn it all into glass..

[Bikerpunk]

Didn't stop the Jews from nailing his ass to the cross. He was bad for business I guess.

The Romans did that, actually.

[Amelia G]

The Romans did that, actually.

There you go bringing accuracy into a debate which is supposed to be emotional to the point of ignorance, no matter how intelligent the debaters are.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

The Romans did that, actually.

Technicalities.

He was found guilty of being "King of the Jews" which only a Roman can be "king". The Jewish priests finding out about the verdict, demanded the death penalty. Pontius Pilate(Mr. Roman-in-charge), wanting to show his authority over the area, had no problem with this demand.

The Jews didn't actually nail him to the cross, but because of the Jewish priests calling for his death, Jesus was cruxified.

There....Feel better that I corrected that statement, BP?

[batzilla]

Technicalities.

He was found guilty of being "King of the Jews" which only a Roman can be "king". The Jewish priests finding out about the verdict, demanded the death penalty. Pontius Pilate(Mr. Roman-in-charge), wanting to show his authority over the area, had no problem with this demand.

The Jews didn't actually nail him to the cross, but because of the Jewish priests calling for his death, Jesus was cruxified.

There....Feel better that I corrected that statement, BP?

Actually, just to be a jerk about it, the gospels say that Pilate did have a problem with the demand. They say that Pilate didn't think Jesus was guilty of anything and tried to talk his accusers out of demanding the death penalty, even giving the crowd the choice of freeing Jesus or freeing another condemned criminal.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Actually, just to be a jerk about it, the gospels say that Pilate did have a problem with the demand. They say that Pilate didn't think Jesus was guilty of anything and tried to talk his accusers out of demanding the death penalty, even giving the crowd the choice of freeing Jesus or freeing another condemned criminal.

No, you're not being a jerk. You're right.

[TheDeathKnight]

My actual opinion on things like this, is that you need to look to the future, not the past. Regardless if you are talking about the Gaza strip, or the land we took from the Native Americans... You need to figure out how to live together in PEACE, even if you don't like the other group of people.

And I think the best way to do that, is by having your own homeland somewhere. Your own government, etc. But I do understand why Israel reacts with violence when they keep getting hit by rockets from surrounding countries or territories. We would not just sit by and let Mexico shoot rockets into Los Angeles.

[nathanmbailey]

We would not just sit by and let Mexico shoot rockets into Los Angeles.

Uh, that's the Mexican space program, and uh.. yeah, we're paying for it with our taxes. We could have kept the American one going, but their scientists work for minimum wage, unlike those good for nothing college graduated scientists.

[OliX]

You need new nazi rocket scientists. I think Israel is on the good way to become new third reich, so if you wait a bit there's all new generation of scientists on their way to you. I remember Bosnia and how they dropped all tose ultimatums and bombs on both sides to stop the fighting. Nato and UN did it ten,tey can stop tis now if tey want. But obviously tey don't. Why? Because government of USA, one of the bigest powers in te world is supporting Israel. It's all interest and money.

I think point were leader is a servant, as it should be, is far away from truth today.

[Raza]

Did your sense of sentence structure run off to elope with your h key, or did you just order that as copypasta from an asian restourant?