Understanding AltPorn Popularity Contests

[The Newswire]

If you want exposure for yourself or your projects or you are seeking expertise, then it matters how busy or influential a web property is. There are many third party tools to assist internet professionals in ascertaining a site's true size, beyond its hype. As a site surfer...

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[Raza]

I'd say that popular use of 'altporn' to describe the field might be unduly generous to some of the names on that list. 'Alternative' is a notoriously broad and vague term, popularly (ab)used to include everything one might conceivably expect to find in the remote vicinity of a guitar, or something of similar pop culture connotations - and 'altporn' seems to enjoy the ambiguity granted by not pronouncing even that completely enough to make any tangible promises.

I've seen content by less than half the sites on that list, but I know that if we were making a listing of "counterculture erotica" sites - or anything else that could boast to be a well defined category rather than a type of miscellaneous bin of the outsider's perspective - some would have a very poor case for being included at all, featuring the increasingly and purposefully more normalised content they do.

[babysinead]

You forgot the part when Sean attacked all who disagreed with him and then claimed that BA was #1 and him #2,
That man is scarily vindictive and I honestly feel like he's gonna hurt a model one day(if he hasn't already)..

[athenahollow]

I know sean very well. And he's a dick. Through and through.
He's convinced that he's God's Answer to Alt-Porn and anything else that has tattoos and hot chics.

He's constantly trying to tell me that the way I handle GGO and missathenahollow is wrong, that it isn't nearly up to par, etc. I don't know how many times he's been in my chatroom or whatever, and someone has asked "Are you a pornstar?" my response being "Well, I'm known in the right circles of the alt-porn community" And Sean pipes in with "You aren't a porn star. You never will have what it takes."

So yea, fuck him. I've been around these parts for the better part of 5 1/2 years, yet SOMEHOW some n00b who just started in 07 knows all the answers to questions unasked.

[Morning Glory]

it seems to me that piercings and tattoos are the norm, not the exception.

[Raza]

it seems to me that piercings and tattoos are the norm, not the exception.

A popular perception, which is (barely) odd on account its incorrectness. I think it has to do with how norms are perceived based on what we see, rather than on what we don't bother looking at.

[babysinead]

I know sean very well. And he's a dick. Through and through.
He's convinced that he's God's Answer to Alt-Porn and anything else that has tattoos and hot chics.

He's constantly trying to tell me that the way I handle GGO and missathenahollow is wrong, that it isn't nearly up to par, etc. I don't know how many times he's been in my chatroom or whatever, and someone has asked "Are you a pornstar?" my response being "Well, I'm known in the right circles of the alt-porn community" And Sean pipes in with "You aren't a porn star. You never will have what it takes."

So yea, fuck him. I've been around these parts for the better part of 5 1/2 years, yet SOMEHOW some n00b who just started in 07 knows all the answers to questions unasked.

Yeah he thinks his work is amazing and people should bend over backwards to work for him.
He's obscenely disrespectful to models and other peers in the industry.
A lot of people oppose the fact that fleshbot is promoting him so much now.
He needs to just go away, he's always complaining his site makes no money anyways.

[Morning Glory]

based on what we see, rather than on what we don't bother looking at.

ugh? what?

[Raza]

ugh? what?

What I'm saying is that people with piercings and tattoos are still a lot less common than those without, and that perceptions to the contrary are likely the result of a disproportional amount of attention paid to the more noticeable first group.

What I'm doing is making fun of the latter group - which generally doubles and triples as the source and beneficiary of such misconceptions - for being no less uninteresting than before.

[Morning Glory]

Oh I don't think that they are really all that interesting or alternative, there's nothing rebellious about "youth rebellion", it's just another marketing trend.

[Raza]

What I wonder is why, when there's as much of a consensus as on anything that tattoos and piercings aren't rebellious, the presumption that a given one is likely taken in rebellion is still on the forefront on every critical observer's lips?

[Morning Glory]

don't ask me. ask "altporn."

[Morning Glory]

what I got out of this article is that Forrest needs to spend less time on twitter.

[athenahollow]

Yeah he thinks his work is amazing and people should bend over backwards to work for him.
He's obscenely disrespectful to models and other peers in the industry.
A lot of people oppose the fact that fleshbot is promoting him so much now.
He needs to just go away, he's always complaining his site makes no money anyways.

I second this. Too bad it's not like survivor...................

[Nudemuse]

I still do not understand why some people feel the need to shit on everything that isn't them. I see it all over the place and don't get it, why be such a dick? I run across people who want to have popularity/dick sizing contests all the time and I just don't see the point.

[Raza]

I still do not understand why some people feel the need to shit on everything that isn't them. I see it all over the place and don't get it, why be such a dick? I run across people who want to have popularity/dick sizing contests all the time and I just don't see the point.

It's fundamental human nature, I'm afraid. We have sentience, propelled by a drive to eliminate ideas that don't feel right together (cognitive dissonance). Seeing someone or something that isn't like us begs a comparison, and for everyone that hasn't thoroughly convinced themselves that different people are still of a same 'worth', that comparison is looking for a better/worse value judgement of some kind.

Our identity is the part of our convictions that applies most to our emotions and general happiness. Something that contradicts it or otherwise makes it feel wrong, hurts. So to the more competitive thinker, it appears to be in their interest to believe something that makes the other party in such situations compare badly; themselves favorably - for some people by any means possible, for others to motivate a genuine truth-seeking exercise. But there's a difference between an idea just occuring to you and truly believing it, and ideas are affirmed the easiest by social ritual of some kind. So people assert themselves, look for ways rationalize their supposed superiority and gain a kind of reaction from others that makes them feel right.

'Course, all this can easily backfire if you play it wrong, and most people regularly do.

[LeilaHazlett]

Yeah he thinks his work is amazing and people should bend over backwards to work for him.
He's obscenely disrespectful to models and other peers in the industry.
A lot of people oppose the fact that fleshbot is promoting him so much now.
He needs to just go away, he's always complaining his site makes no money anyways.

That guy is an idiot. He tried to get me to model for his site claiming his site was so exclusive and popular that he shouldn't have to pay me to model for him cause just being on his site would be such a HUGE benefit to my modeling career...but then in the same conversation bitched that he didn't want to pay me because his site makes no money.

[Raza]

Sounds like one of those cheap market salesmen that get by on a knack for unfounded assertiveness, yelling praise and halleluya while perfectly liable to forget what they're selling that day.

I never get (yes, it's my turn to 'never get' something!) how they can sound so confident while spouting the most blatant bullshit without being the least bit embarrassed. I can't for the life of me bring myself to say something if I can see any way for the recipient to prove it false; any bluff has to be reducible to an underlying layer of logic at least five or so times without sounding wrong and I need my reason for bluffing in the first place ready for if they do end up seeing through it all, or I feel like an idiot saying it and shut right up. Simply asserting a false fact that 'they've no way to know about' doesn't do it, the possibility of being reasonably proven wrong is just not acceptable to me. But I guess it gets them ahead - so long as there's people enough like me to expect assertiveness to be founded and not enough like me to thoroughly question it - and therefore survives, passed on either socially or genetically.

[Nudemuse]

It's fundamental human nature, I'm afraid. We have sentience, propelled by a drive to eliminate ideas that don't feel right together (cognitive dissonance). Seeing someone or something that isn't like us begs a comparison, and for everyone that hasn't thoroughly convinced themselves that different people are still of a same 'worth', that comparison is looking for a better/worse value judgement of some kind.

Our identity is the part of our convictions that applies most to our emotions and general happiness. Something that contradicts it or otherwise makes it feel wrong, hurts. So to the more competitive thinker, it appears to be in their interest to believe something that makes the other party in such situations compare badly; themselves favorably - for some people by any means possible, for others to motivate a genuine truth-seeking exercise. But there's a difference between an idea just occuring to you and truly believing it, and ideas are affirmed the easiest by social ritual of some kind. So people assert themselves, look for ways rationalize their supposed superiority and gain a kind of reaction from others that makes them feel right.

'Course, all this can easily backfire if you play it wrong, and most people regularly do.

True unfortunately.

I have such little patience for this kind of thing anymore. It seems like such a waste of energy to be running around screaming "I'M THE BEST" instead of actually engaging in the thing you're supposed to be the best at.

I will be very excited when on the whole people stop putting up with the drama and jackassery.

I'm very biased about this sort of thing. Several very good things I've been involved with in the last couple of years had things like this happen and they are no more.

As for this article in particular I think the last paragraph should be included in a primer for would be webmasters.

[Raza]

True unfortunately.

I have such little patience for this kind of thing anymore. It seems like such a waste of energy to be running around screaming "I'M THE BEST" instead of actually engaging in the thing you're supposed to be the best at.

I'm not sure we work like that. I mean, doing things right is a prerequisite for believing it in any remotely sensible person, but even the best of us need something to grow to believe it - or can benefit greatly from it even if they don't. A positive self image is the single most valuable tool for achieving a happy life, and social interaction builds conviction like nothing else.

I mean, obviously you can try not to be an ass about presenting yourself. You can do everything in your capacity to make sure that what you claim is justified, and that you acknowledge others when they are. But I don't think you'd get very far without any socially presented identity at all.

I will be very excited when on the whole people stop putting up with the drama and jackassery.

And isn't that just you looking for validation in one of your values; looking for people not doing it your way to get rejected, their positions rightfully falsified according to your own visions?

[Amelia G]

It's fundamental human nature, I'm afraid. We have sentience, propelled by a drive to eliminate ideas that don't feel right together (cognitive dissonance). Seeing someone or something that isn't like us begs a comparison, and for everyone that hasn't thoroughly convinced themselves that different people are still of a same 'worth', that comparison is looking for a better/worse value judgement of some kind.

Our identity is the part of our convictions that applies most to our emotions and general happiness. Something that contradicts it or otherwise makes it feel wrong, hurts. So to the more competitive thinker, it appears to be in their interest to believe something that makes the other party in such situations compare badly; themselves favorably - for some people by any means possible, for others to motivate a genuine truth-seeking exercise. But there's a difference between an idea just occuring to you and truly believing it, and ideas are affirmed the easiest by social ritual of some kind. So people assert themselves, look for ways rationalize their supposed superiority and gain a kind of reaction from others that makes them feel right.

'Course, all this can easily backfire if you play it wrong, and most people regularly do.

My cognitive dissonance meter goes off when people present like there is only one of something, when I know there are many, or when people present like they are the first x-and-so, when I know they are the most recent in a long line etc. Some things are a matter of opinion and I'm totally down with varied perspectives and opinions, but seeing misrepresentation of solid facts causes huge dissonance for me and I can't understand why it does not cause the skulls, of those who do it, to explode.

[Nudemuse]

(snip)

I mean, obviously you can try not to be an ass about presenting yourself. You can do everything in your capacity to make sure that what you claim is justified, and that you acknowledge others when they are. But I don't think you'd get very far without any socially presented identity at all.

True.

And isn't that just you looking for validation in one of your values; looking for people not doing it your way to get rejected, their positions rightfully falsified according to your own visions?

Yes it is since I was offering an opinion. I wouldn't however actively try to force people to adhere to my preferences for shits and giggles or to bulk up my self image. I enjoy discussing it but, if you (or whomever) reject the idea that's perfectly fine with me. My personal positive self image doesn't ride on convincing people to follow me down the primrose path.

I didn't say anything about not presenting an image socially at all. I do realize that everyone has some image they want to show the world, and that has an impact on self image and building a positive self image. I was talking more about the means and manner a person presents themselves in and the people I prefer not to interact with or devote energy to dealing with. Your mileage may vary on that point.

I may be wrong for not wanting to be near or deal with people who exhibit this particular kind of behavior but, as with all things we determine how we move in social circles and whom we move with in keeping with whatever self image we have or that we show to the general public.

[Buster Friendly]

I still do not understand why some people feel the need to shit on everything that isn't them. I see it all over the place and don't get it, why be such a dick? I run across people who want to have popularity/dick sizing contests all the time and I just don't see the point.

to put it a little more bluntly than Raza did-

Basic beta male coping strategy.

[Nudemuse]

to put it a little more bluntly than Raza did-

Basic beta male coping strategy.

So my lack of penis is what's blocking my understanding.

If I start packing daily will it make more sense?

[Amelia G]

So my lack of penis is what's blocking my understanding.

If I start packing daily will it make more sense?

My penis is plastic, but I figured I don't get it because I am alpha

Couldn't that be your explanation too?

[Nudemuse]

My penis is plastic, but I figured I don't get it because I am alpha

Couldn't that be your explanation too?

Absolutely baby.

This reminds me I thought of you yesterday while demanding bacon from Hempknight the other day.

[Amelia G]

Absolutely baby.

This reminds me I thought of you yesterday while demanding bacon from Hempknight the other day.

Ha ha, was it crisp and peppered?

[Mr Karl]

bah............business people

[Nudemuse]

Ha ha, was it crisp and peppered?

Yes. Not deli sliced but the end of the day ends and pieces package that I was wanting. I will never view already sliced bacon the same way again.

[Raza]

My cognitive dissonance meter goes off when people present like there is only one of something, when I know there are many, or when people present like they are the first x-and-so, when I know they are the most recent in a long line etc. Some things are a matter of opinion and I'm totally down with varied perspectives and opinions, but seeing misrepresentation of solid facts causes huge dissonance for me and I can't understand why it does not cause the skulls, of those who do it, to explode.

Ignorance, presumably; cognitive dissonance requires one to be aware of both of the two conflicting ideas. And I think it's surprisingly easy to be unaware of other parties in a decentralised culture like our own.

Just months ago for example, just before stumbling on BB, I submitted a pic for a contest hosted by increasingly popular perhaps eighteen months old *******-profile-ran organisation 'Coffin Candy', a bunch of people with the novel idea of providing a central banner for alternative looking people to have pictures under and get everyone involved more exposure to 'further the scene'. And I had a good time. But by the time it was running to an end, they were revamping their organisation with a website, begging high scoring participants to become (exclusive) 'coffin models' and present themselves as such, so that they could establish themselves above that horrible OTHER *******-ran alto model contest group that STOLE THEIR IDEA!

Imagine that.

I send them a lengthy response explaining that I was declining their offer because of some five paragraphs worth of flaws in their business ethic. I got one line back thanking me for my feedback and promising an in-depth response at an unspecified later date, which apparently still hasn't fallen today. Then I stubled onto BB and realised - honestly for the first time - how funny it all was.


I know what you mean though.

[Morning Glory]

Ha ha, was it crisp and peppered?

see, now this is something that there can only be one way.

[babysinead]

That guy is an idiot. He tried to get me to model for his site claiming his site was so exclusive and popular that he shouldn't have to pay me to model for him cause just being on his site would be such a HUGE benefit to my modeling career...but then in the same conversation bitched that he didn't want to pay me because his site makes no money.

Yeah he seems to do this with everyone. Ugh. I tried to explain to him once that this wasn't the best way to go about talking to models and he just attacked me.

[BigBoy]

I dont wanna sound Like a n00b but what's alt porn?

[ForrestBlack]

I dont wanna sound Like a n00b but what's alt porn?

I think the article explains it pretty well.

[LeilaHazlett]

Yeah he seems to do this with everyone. Ugh. I tried to explain to him once that this wasn't the best way to go about talking to models and he just attacked me.

I'm really surprised he gets anyone to work with him, the only models I know who have dealt with him have had similar stories of being harassed by this guy. I really wish I had saved the AIM conversation I had with him like a year ago...it was so pathetic on his part it was priceless. Money can not buy that type of entertainment.

[maestro]

Basic beta male coping strategy.

I'd rather call it everyone's coping strategy. Has that beeing best Marine recon sniper ever not panned out? Well, you're up there with the best of the best in making überdelicios Subway sandwiches. High Five.

People use this unknowingly to overcome that state of Dissonance when they feel they should actually be doing something else, but necessarily accept their current status as better, true or not, to cope with their situation. "Marines are cannon-fodder, anyway."




Kudos to them for making something, but when i first saw the APN list i wondered if they based their ranks solely on Alexa ratings. I have my problems with Alexa rankings simply due to the fact that you can rise 3 million places up in one month. They, even more than Google's PR, try to stamp every website into one form to give a random marketing guy a quick overview of how good a website "performs", indiscriminate of content or target group. Without access to any quantifyable stats they claim to know if a site's traffic went up or down. Amelia rightly pointed out that you can't even exactly measure traffic if you own the darn thing, since your server stats will tell you something completely different than google analytics, nedstat and whatever else, so how are they supposed to know? One day i simply ruled that GA counts when someone asks for our traffic.


But then i find it hard to compare websites to each other, anyway:

Google Analytics added a benchmarking feature lately. It compares your site's stats with an average drawn from members of content categories. Obviously VTK (our site, non-porn unfortunately) fares pretty well against "Arab&Middle Eastern identity groups" but don't ever touch the "social networks" category if you want to preserve some dignity. At least we rule the waves when it comes to bounce rates :P

But still, even if the benchmarking was more exact, i wouldn't want to compare my site with that bunch of emo kids on vampirefreaks (see how dissonance works?) anyway. No matter if that is the site most demented duds (hell, even more of it) mix us up with, we're not in the same ballpark. It's not even the same sport.




Since i doubt anyone will ever give out the true numbers of subscribers to their membership sites (if i were mistaken this whole thread probably would be moot) and given the inherent nature of membership sites to be walled gardens, there is not much one can say about content and population of a porn website besides of hits. But for me, you cannot measure a website in (guesstimated) hits: a website (or network in Blueblood's case) also has a community that goes beyond the number of subscribers, or posters on the forums. Even if people are not actively participating, they might speak favourable of a website, run the Blueblood banner exchange on their site, post links to BB articles, twitter about how great some photo set is. Even if that doesn't directly return in new subscribers, it's placement, brings people and somehow adds to the "virtual" market position.
Ten billion hits a day are nothing if the average time on site is 3 seconds.


As for that Sean Adamz guy:
For any analysis you need to scoop out the market for altporn and the environment of altporn sites (and other stuff), so how anything could be called comprehensive and leave out big players like GG, DN and EroticBPM (which i until now always assumed belonging to BB somehow) is beyond me. Including so obviously faulty data into a report on Fleshbot is indeed irresponsible, even if i have no idea how much Fleshbot's "opinion" really weighs.




Are there stats considering subscription numbers?

[ForrestBlack]

I think Amelia pointed out that you will never have the One True Measure but using all the tools available to you, you can cut through some of the hype and get a much more reasonable and realistic grasp of traffic or popularity or reach or whatever. The altporn people you mentioned actually rotated tools and posted measures from I think three or four. I remember some drama about quantcast vs. compete.com anyway. I do think it's reasonable within certain categories to want to know ones stature. If I ran a spooky social site, I might want to know where it was in relation to VampireFreaks, not as a matter of destructive competition, but simply as a matter of benchmarking my own success. I even pay attention to how various sites I work on are doing in relation to one another just to get a feel for what is and is not working.