Backlash Against Immigrants?

[One Eyed Cat]

We've discussed immigration here before. I respect the variety of opinions and arguments made in a civil manner. Given the events of the last few years and debates in congress, does anyone else fear a backlash against immigrants to intensify?

This mostly concerns me as the economy continues to be on shaky grounds. Scapegoats are often sought for the failings of individuals and society. To what extent do people believe this to be intensifying? If it is, do you see any possible solutions?

My basic view is to devise a guest worker program. I would not allow them to be on the government dole save for emergency room visits etc.

JT

[Head Wreck]

if thier coming to work, fine, why the heck not.

a lot of people cant complain here, were having an influx of polish imigrants and some work damn hard at jobs everyone else turns thier nose up at, but then thier scapegoated for taking jobs. a little bit of a double standard i find.

however, there are some minority elements of the imigrants that are just here to soak up social benefits. and back when i ran a rock night the tinkers were the worst crowd for starting fights, now its those minor elements again.


with everything there's good and bad, but if there's 30 people sitting quiet in one end of the room and one person yelling and being obnoxious, your attention is drawn to the obnoxious minority

[Morning Glory]

short anser, yes.

slightly sarcastic, but not too far off answer, the solution: US economy collapses and no one wants to come here anymore.

[One Eyed Cat]

Both of you make good points. I'll have to read up on the U.K. a bit to be up to snuff on the polish immigrants. I have heard the EU has a generally workable policy, but I have no doubt there is a bit of backlash in any country.

JT

[Mr Karl]

oh, I'm sure it'll get pretty intense down there

[One Eyed Cat]

oh, I'm sure it'll get pretty intense down there

I'm hoping for the best. It will be rough though. I can just feel the hate brewing again. It's not just about immigrants/race/ethnicity even. Just some pissed-off folks looking for scapegoats imo. Hopefully, they will be placated by reality television.

JT

PS and OT: In answer to a comment on BB I can no longer locate, it is my contention that our policy on the arts should mirror that of Ireland. No taxes. The caveat being it would apply to individuals, small business ventures, and co-operatives only. No labels or corporate media outlets would be eligible.

PSS: Artist cut from label would also = No Tax. I'm off the cuff a bit, but I think the principle should be obvious.

[Pull~My~Hair]

im cool with them, they wouldnt be illegal if our country didnt make it so fucking hard and expensive to do it all legally . Then everyone could be registered and everything and there wouldnt be so many off the radar...one of our chefs got deported today actually ):

[Bikerpunk]

Let me tell you what it cost me *grrrr*

[sickybuaaaaa]

We've discussed immigration here before. I respect the variety of opinions and arguments made in a civil manner. Given the events of the last few years and debates in congress, does anyone else fear a backlash against immigrants to intensify?

This mostly concerns me as the economy continues to be on shaky grounds. Scapegoats are often sought for the failings of individuals and society. To what extent do people believe this to be intensifying? If it is, do you see any possible solutions?

My basic view is to devise a guest worker program. I would not allow them to be on the government dole save for emergency room visits etc.

JT

Currently in Europe there's a lot of backlashing against immigrants going on in France as far as I've heard. Employment condition there is horrible, there are no jobs and the immigrants mostly get blamed for it. Some studies say that sixty percent of French are also racist, which I would say has a lot to do with it.

[Donald Rilea]

I also think it might worsen a bit more here, as the economic situation continues to worsen.

However, as some of our fellow posters here, like sickybuaaaaa and Head Wreck have pointed out, anti-immigrant sentiments, rhetoric and behaviours are confined to the US alone

In much of the EU, Russia, and even southern Mexico, with the animus being directed at Guatemalan and other Central American immigrants, as well as other parts of the world, tensions between immigrants and nationals have been on the up-swing for several years now.

Some of this is a recent development, but, depending on the area of the world being discussed, many of the tensions, racial, ethnic, cultural, and economic, are of long standing, and have more or less quietly festered close to the surface of the respective society during more prosperous times.

Such is the case in the US, where, during the '70's, '80's, and '90's, illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America was seen as mainly a regional phenomenon, confined mainly to the Southwestern states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

But, due to both economic and social policies pursued by the US and Mexican governments from the mid-'90's onwards, there's been a much larger out-migration from Mexico, especially rural central and southern Mexico, to the US, and to areas of the US, like the Midwest and Southern states, where the Latino segment of the population there, Southern Florida with its large Cuban population excepted, was historically smaller than in the Southwest and Far West.

As one can imagine, the large and sudden influx of an ethnically, linguistically and culturally different group like the central and southern Mexican migrants to those regions of the US was bound to create at least some small amount of tension between the locals and the immigrants.

Combine that with the kind of racially-based and other forms of contempt in which many Americans have held Latin Americans, and most especially Mexicans, since the `1830's, the economic contractions and stresses for Americans at the entry and bottom levels of the US economic and social order
,the very same level at which many of these immigrants found themselves, and the willingness of politicians and media figures to use those tensions for their own advancement, and, well, I think one can see the sort of pickle about immigration we've here in the US now came about.

This problem isn't going to be easily solved, nor will it go away by itself after a short period of time.

It's going to require a better understanding and willingness by Americans, whether in the governing and business classes, or so-called ordinary Americans , as well as some wide and thorough changes, especially in economic policies, by the Mexican government and businesses, in how business is done in Mexico, to ramp down the levels of tension between Americans and Mexican and Central American migrants.

The aim, I think, should ultimately be to have a far more equitable and viable distribution of economic and other resources in Mexico and the Central American countries to where most inhabitants of those societies aren't compelled by economic and other pressures to head north-wards, or anywhere else in the world, to leave their homes in search of work that will keep themselves and their families from dying of poverty and want.
But, that's going to take quite some time, effort, and especially the political and social will, to have those changes successfully made, and I can't say that that will can be found in abundance in the US, or in much of the world, right now.

[One Eyed Cat]

Currently in Europe there's a lot of backlashing against immigrants going on in France as far as I've heard. Employment condition there is horrible, there are no jobs and the immigrants mostly get blamed for it. Some studies say that sixty percent of French are also racist, which I would say has a lot to do with it.

I don't know about any studies, but I do know they are having serious problems in France. The immigrants are basically isolated. They try to blame islam. They need to look in the mirror (as do we).

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

I also think it might worsen a bit more here, as the economic situation continues to worsen.

However, as some of our fellow posters here, like sickybuaaaaa and Head Wreck have pointed out, anti-immigrant sentiments, rhetoric and behaviours are confined to the US alone

In much of the EU, Russia, and even southern Mexico, with the animus being directed at Guatemalan and other Central American immigrants, as well as other parts of the world, tensions between immigrants and nationals have been on the up-swing for several years now.

Some of this is a recent development, but, depending on the area of the world being discussed, many of the tensions, racial, ethnic, cultural, and economic, are of long standing, and have more or less quietly festered close to the surface of the respective society during more prosperous times.

Such is the case in the US, where, during the '70's, '80's, and '90's, illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America was seen as mainly a regional phenomenon, confined mainly to the Southwestern states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

But, due to both economic and social policies pursued by the US and Mexican governments from the mid-'90's onwards, there's been a much larger out-migration from Mexico, especially rural central and southern Mexico, to the US, and to areas of the US, like the Midwest and Southern states, where the Latino segment of the population there, Southern Florida with its large Cuban population excepted, was historically smaller than in the Southwest and Far West.

As one can imagine, the large and sudden influx of an ethnically, linguistically and culturally different group like the central and southern Mexican migrants to those regions of the US was bound to create at least some small amount of tension between the locals and the immigrants.

Combine that with the kind of racially-based and other forms of contempt in which many Americans have held Latin Americans, and most especially Mexicans, since the `1830's, the economic contractions and stresses for Americans at the entry and bottom levels of the US economic and social order
,the very same level at which many of these immigrants found themselves, and the willingness of politicians and media figures to use those tensions for their own advancement, and, well, I think one can see the sort of pickle about immigration we've here in the US now came about.

This problem isn't going to be easily solved, nor will it go away by itself after a short period of time.

It's going to require a better understanding and willingness by Americans, whether in the governing and business classes, or so-called ordinary Americans , as well as some wide and thorough changes, especially in economic policies, by the Mexican government and businesses, in how business is done in Mexico, to ramp down the levels of tension between Americans and Mexican and Central American migrants.

The aim, I think, should ultimately be to have a far more equitable and viable distribution of economic and other resources in Mexico and the Central American countries to where most inhabitants of those societies aren't compelled by economic and other pressures to head north-wards, or anywhere else in the world, to leave their homes in search of work that will keep themselves and their families from dying of poverty and want.
But, that's going to take quite some time, effort, and especially the political and social will, to have those changes successfully made, and I can't say that that will can be found in abundance in the US, or in much of the world, right now.

I would agree that improved governance in Mexico and Central America would help in terms of emigration from those countries. Regardless, we 're looking at an economic downturn in the States that has other causes at its root.

Here in MN: A recent vehicular accident resulted in the death of 4 children. There has been some confusion as to the exact circumstances of the accident. The driver of one vehicle was identified as a citizen of Guatemala. Granted, the woman should be prosecuted for any deaths she is responsible for. I am seeing this tragedy being exploited to justify certain prejudices. Granted, this is a small minority of people doing it. MPLS is a very progressive city. We have successful immigrant communities from around the world. It is an ominous sign to hear this rhetoric being used. This trend started before the accident, obviously. That incident has simply intensified it. I have a sense of which people are doing it and why. It is not a good sign.

JT

[Donald Rilea]

Don't disagree with you about the economic down-turn having other causes at its root.

By no means.

My point was that it, along with other more long-standing tensions in this culture, is helping to fuel and aggravate them, just as they do in many other parts of the world where there are tensions between immigrants and locals.

And I definitely agree with you about the kind of rhetoric being used, though more in the context of the greater national debate(as am unfamiliar with the MPLS incident which you mention), and that it doesn't bode at all well for this country, at least in the short term.

[One Eyed Cat]

Don't disagree with you about the economic down-turn having other causes at its root.

By no means.

My point was that it, along with other more long-standing tensions in this culture, is helping to fuel and aggravate them, just as they do in many other parts of the world where there are tensions between immigrants and locals.

And I definitely agree with you about the kind of rhetoric being used, though more in the context of the greater national debate(as am unfamiliar with the MPLS incident which you mention), and that it doesn't bode at all well for this country, at least in the short term.

True. It is occuring on a national level. The local incident just brought it more to my immediate attention. I know it isn't unique to my locale or country. I'm just a bit taken aback by it happening here I suppose.

J

[Donald Rilea]

True. It is occuring on a national level. The local incident just brought it more to my immediate attention. I know it isn't unique to my locale or country. I'm just a bit taken aback by it happening here I suppose.

J

Well, hey, as the late Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill once said, all politics is local, at least in some form or another, and, very often, an issue, even though it may be of national or international importance, often only seems real to a lot of folks when it pops up, in one way or another, in their front or back yards.

It's just the way a lot of people work, I figure.

[Bacchus88]

We've discussed immigration here before. I respect the variety of opinions and arguments made in a civil manner. Given the events of the last few years and debates in congress, does anyone else fear a backlash against immigrants to intensify?

This mostly concerns me as the economy continues to be on shaky grounds. Scapegoats are often sought for the failings of individuals and society. To what extent do people believe this to be intensifying? If it is, do you see any possible solutions?

My basic view is to devise a guest worker program. I would not allow them to be on the government dole save for emergency room visits etc.

JT

Legal Immigrants should not have back
If you come to US legally, embrace the American dream. I have no problem what so every with you. Embrace and love this country for good and bad time. Come on in, Open arms and open minds to you.


If you come to the US illegally, you are criminal its pretty much cut and clean. The backlash for illegally Immigration should be hasher. This really has nothing to do with economy, it more on the lines of the law and the USA sovereignty.

[One Eyed Cat]

Legal Immigrants should not have back
If you come to US legally, embrace the American dream. I have no problem what so every with you. Embrace and love this country for good and bad time. Come on in, Open arms and open minds to you.


If you come to the US illegally, you are criminal its pretty much cut and clean. The backlash for illegally Immigration should be hasher. This really has nothing to do with economy, it more on the lines of the law and the USA sovereignty.

Agree completely on your first point. On your second: We're talking 11 Million people. What would you propose? I agree we have to bring order to the situation. My preference would just be a guest worker program. Work. Go back when the job ends. Employers would also be liable for documentation. Citizenship would be another matter. We simply do not have a functional system at present. It needs a complete overhaul imo.

J

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Did you know that illegal immigrants sneak into Iran?

Sure, not at the same level they do in the US, but it should give people pause to think. Illegal immigration is not going to stop just because you add harsher penalties, but that is the route people often want to take.

We really need to attack the motivations, and I will tell you, despite what people may tell you it is not our public schools, welfare and free health care that bring people.

[OliX]

Make the people busy fighting and hating each other so that others can do they work undisturbed.

Anyone having issues in their head about immigrants should sell everything they own and go live in their country where their money is more valuable than in country where they are originating from. BUT! Learn the language first

[Bacchus88]

Agree completely on your first point. On your second: We're talking 11 Million people. What would you propose? I agree we have to bring order to the situation. My preference would just be a guest worker program. Work. Go back when the job ends. Employers would also be liable for documentation. Citizenship would be another matter. We simply do not have a functional system at present. It needs a complete overhaul imo.

J

lets be honest here 11 milllion, it joke more like 20 million guest worker program if it would work and keep track of said persons. Said guest work comes US and let works for My company. He learns English, he make an effort to learn about US. Yea, I am going help him become a citzen he has desire to better himself for better life. I can agree to a point, but some of them are criminals and were criminals before they even set foot into the US.

Just how far are you will to take issue of bring order to the US boarder problem and immigration? I think the US government should handle the deportation, Let the private sector give helping hand. Minuteman are a good exp.

This issue of immigration Cultural, I believe most part this can hold true UK, Main Land Europe
What is more of issue at least to Me in our National ID, at best the US has shaky one and culture melting pot might be so in the larger city. Heartland is mostly european decent. Really the Bulk of the Nation is of european decent, we all learn to embrace other that would embrace our own culture. American no - american, just american....I saw a glimps of just such a thing, its months fallowing 911. Then year past and it all stop we went back to our subname the "-" americans. In those Few Months, I saw Nationalism: Over helming love of county. Nationalism is salvation to US for national ID... Just my 2 cent... I can go into much deeper.

[One Eyed Cat]

Did you know that illegal immigrants sneak into Iran?

Sure, not at the same level they do in the US, but it should give people pause to think. Illegal immigration is not going to stop just because you add harsher penalties, but that is the route people often want to take.

We really need to attack the motivations, and I will tell you, despite what people may tell you it is not our public schools, welfare and free health care that bring people.

I'm certain they come here to work. I see a guest worker program as a workable solution. Regardless, I am finding the rhetoric bizarre. I don't quite understand how a few folks in the Midwest are being impacted to the point of having fits of spite. It's getting bizarre. I've generally lived in Sanctuary Cities including MPLS. We can't be bothered to rat out our neighbors. Even in Cali, this was a non-issue for me.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

Make the people busy fighting and hating each other so that others can do they work undisturbed.

Anyone having issues in their head about immigrants should sell everything they own and go live in their country where their money is more valuable than in country where they are originating from. BUT! Learn the language first

Where on earth would we send the people who have problems with immigrants?

J

[One Eyed Cat]

lets be honest here 11 milllion, it joke more like 20 million guest worker program if it would work and keep track of said persons. Said guest work comes US and let works for My company. He learns English, he make an effort to learn about US. Yea, I am going help him become a citzen he has desire to better himself for better life. I can agree to a point, but some of them are criminals and were criminals before they even set foot into the US.

Just how far are you will to take issue of bring order to the US boarder problem and immigration? I think the US government should handle the deportation, Let the private sector give helping hand. Minuteman are a good exp.

This issue of immigration Cultural, I believe most part this can hold true UK, Main Land Europe
What is more of issue at least to Me in our National ID, at best the US has shaky one and culture melting pot might be so in the larger city. Heartland is mostly european decent. Really the Bulk of the Nation is of european decent, we all learn to embrace other that would embrace our own culture. American no - american, just american....I saw a glimps of just such a thing, its months fallowing 911. Then year past and it all stop we went back to our subname the "-" americans. In those Few Months, I saw Nationalism: Over helming love of county. Nationalism is salvation to US for national ID... Just my 2 cent... I can go into much deeper.

Deport 20 Million ppl? Come on. We don't have the resources for one. I understand your points on national identity. We're way past that point now.

J

[OliX]

Not sticking their greedy political nose everywhere all the times is only salvation for people of US. And national identity too whatever it is. Vote people.... you got the power

[Mr Karl]

hmm,well since when haven't the immigrants gotten the blame for everything?

[One Eyed Cat]

hmm,well since when haven't the immigrants gotten the blame for everything?

Certainly. I'm just noticing it tightening up a bit at present. Grandparents were immigrants. I'm not amused by some of it (they're going beyond illegal immigrants). Have a fun response for em though

JT

[funkatron]

I think the hostility against immigrants was actually a lot more open and violent 150 years ago than it is now. It seems to be a large political issue in the past 10-20 years, but in general I think the US is less xenophobic than it has been.

It's not surprising that we're in an economic downturn, but I don't think there's evidence pointing to an apocalyptic meltdown or anything. Immigration, illegal or otherwise will generally be tolerated as long as the economic status quo is maintained. It's too multifaceted an issue, with too many varying opinions among the Powers That Be, for anything terribly severe to go down (on a large scale, I mean).

[Bacchus88]

Deport 20 Million ppl? Come on. We don't have the resources for one. I understand your points on national identity. We're way past that point now.

J

no you miss understood, or I didnt type what i ment to say. 11 million illegals, that is joke, there is more than that. 20 million is closer number to truth. There are ways, that are much cheap than deportation. Now the real question, how dark a road do we want to go down?

No we not way past that point! I agree that America and Europe both need to wake up to our immigration problems. I think Europe is worse shape than US on National ID. I side with Nationalist on some issues immigration is one and National ID, culture.

[grebo]

a country without immigration would be economically fucked because who would do the jobs the locals think they're to good for.

but its the kids, or the kids of the kids, of the 1st generation of immigrant that end up with the shitty end of the stick cos their citizens of the country theyre in
but the people in charge are usually the ones who grew up with their parents/grandparents doing the shitty jobs and thats all they think theyre good for.
and then begins a long hard road to prove yourself

[Bacchus88]

a country without immigration would be economically fucked because who would do the jobs the locals think they're to good for.

Without those immigrants it would force the People to act and take those jobs. As the economy turns more down hill, the environment of the time will force them to take the jobs. It would not be bad thing, hardwork never hurt anyone.. It what builds nation, and betters the people....

Dont run will things get tough, push on and it will better yourself for it. Do the grunt work, it harden you for years to come.

[Toe Cutter]

Immigrants are like nature's punching-bag. Consider them a divine gift.

[One Eyed Cat]

no you miss understood, or I didnt type what i ment to say. 11 million illegals, that is joke, there is more than that. 20 million is closer number to truth. There are ways, that are much cheap than deportation. Now the real question, how dark a road do we want to go down?

No we not way past that point! I agree that America and Europe both need to wake up to our immigration problems. I think Europe is worse shape than US on National ID. I side with Nationalist on some issues immigration is one and National ID, culture.

Oh ok. I see where you're coming from.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

I think the hostility against immigrants was actually a lot more open and violent 150 years ago than it is now. It seems to be a large political issue in the past 10-20 years, but in general I think the US is less xenophobic than it has been.

It's not surprising that we're in an economic downturn, but I don't think there's evidence pointing to an apocalyptic meltdown or anything. Immigration, illegal or otherwise will generally be tolerated as long as the economic status quo is maintained. It's too multifaceted an issue, with too many varying opinions among the Powers That Be, for anything terribly severe to go down (on a large scale, I mean).

Good point. My Grandpa legally immigrated here to Minnesota and became an M.D. Had no problems. My brother-in-law did the same from Korea. I think you always have a bit of jealousy from the least able amongst the local populace. In fairness though: We're all descended of immigrants united by creed rather than ethnicity. The only exceptions would be the actual native americans.

JT

[One Eyed Cat]

Without those immigrants it would force the People to act and take those jobs. As the economy turns more down hill, the environment of the time will force them to take the jobs. It would not be bad thing, hardwork never hurt anyone.. It what builds nation, and betters the people....

Dont run will things get tough, push on and it will better yourself for it. Do the grunt work, it harden you for years to come.

Given the trade agreements we've made, you may be right.

JT

[theUnclean]

I'm a first generation American; CA born and raised. My father was from Mexico and mom is from Ireland. Shit, my grandma (dad's side) doesn't even speak english and I didn't until I was 5-6 years old!

IMHO, this big fucking mess could easily, profitably be resolved with some serious shifting in the way the US has outsourced our manufacturing base. simply taking the bulk of the benefits for shipping jobs overseas and let it apply only for those working in Mexico. Why the fuck are we shipping so much shit from China instead of Mexico?! there are so many untapped resources, manpower, materials, etc in Mexico and it is logistically better. It just never made sense to me; except in the political view where China has a huge series of lobbying groups in DC.

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm a first generation American; CA born and raised. My father was from Mexico and mom is from Ireland. Shit, my grandma (dad's side) doesn't even speak english and I didn't until I was 5-6 years old!

IMHO, this big fucking mess could easily, profitably be resolved with some serious shifting in the way the US has outsourced our manufacturing base. simply taking the bulk of the benefits for shipping jobs overseas and let it apply only for those working in Mexico. Why the fuck are we shipping so much shit from China instead of Mexico?! there are so many untapped resources, manpower, materials, etc in Mexico and it is logistically better. It just never made sense to me; except in the political view where China has a huge series of lobbying groups in DC.

Excellent point. It just makes too much sense for the govt. to actually do that. DC is a clusterfuck.

[Toe Cutter]

I
Here in MN: A recent vehicular accident resulted in the death of 4 children. There has been some confusion as to the exact circumstances of the accide.......

I live in the same city as you and I don't know what your talking about. People have a right to be pissed off about this. She ran a stop sign a killed 4 kids! There would be outrage at who ever did that. Why are you portraying HER as the victim. She should not have been driving, and she is a fucking liar. Minneapolis/Twin-cities is one of the liberal cities in the whole fucking country. So what are you talking about? It appears to me like your feigning injustice to project an agenda. Why? Your slant on the story makes it sound extremely more dubious than I think most people saw it.

To answer your first question. I guess I need more clarification on what you mean. Do you mean immigrants as a whole or simply people from south of the boarder. I ask because, for instance as you know in Minneapolis we have the largest population of Somalians outside of Mogadishu and a HUGE population from the former Soviet Union. So who exactly are you talking about in your fear mongering. Because they have assimilated just fine. Can you point to any other examples of what your feeling?


I see immigrants as Americas little brother who are going to get picked on till they prove they have what it takes. Somebody else said something similar as well. They are the "New guy", what's the big deal? The Polish, Italians, Irish, Africans, Latinos.... Everybody is the new guy at some point. Who gives a shit? Immigrants are not house guests, I don't think people should be expected to welcome strangers with open arms it's not natural. Like anywhere in life people and groups of people need to prove themselfs. Which they will because people are people.

[OliX]

I think Europe is worse shape than US on National ID.

you got it all wrong here... Europe is 27 nations actualy

All 27 can't be in worse shape than 1.

[OliX]

Why the fuck are we shipping so much shit from China instead of Mexico?!

cheap prices

for example, go there, buy minimum 500 pairs of jeans and pay them 1 dolar each, of corse I forgot to mention that you can chose which label you want on them and go back to us and sell like 10 pairs to get the money back and then you'll be left with 490 pairs which is enough for the rest of your life... and your childrens life and your children childrens life

so simple and so unfair... and what's worst it's labeled with "fair trade"

WEF had some promising promises (this sounds wrong) as well as they had last year and year before that but something is telling me we are on the good way... time will show

[OliX]

.....MPLS is a very progressive city. We have successful immigrant communities from around the world. It is an ominous sign to hear this rhetoric being used....... It is not a good sign.

JT

that's the whole point... example that swedish government did, is to take big money from european union and take lot's of imigrants from problematic countries (war etc) and to put them in small communities. somehow it's not just the government's problem but a problem of a "global" awarenes.