Fashion Show in the Champagne Room

[The Newswire]

I have had a lot of fun in Portland before and I've shot a bunch in Portland before. So I was down for a trip, a few weeks ago, when long-time Blue Blood hottie Rachel Face called me up...

Read the full article

[Bikerpunk]

Absolutely fucking MAGNIFICENT.
Best pics of Voltaire I have EVER seen.

The girl who looks like Jane Siberry is cute, too.

[Bikerpunk]

Uhhh, wasn't singling out VB... just saying awesome pictures, AND best ones of her.

[Amelia G]

Absolutely fucking MAGNIFICENT.
Best pics of Voltaire I have EVER seen.

The girl who looks like Jane Siberry is cute, too.

Thanks

This is the event I invited you to assist on, FYI.

Use the BBCode in the second box under the pics to post which one you think looks like Jane Siberry.

[Morning Glory]

most strippers prefer to be called dancers. but when they are blowing you for 20 bucks in the VIP, if they have a choice between being called a stripper or a hooker, they'll take stripper.

[Bikerpunk]

Thanks

This is the event I invited you to assist on, FYI.

Use the BBCode in the second box under the pics to post which one you think looks like Jane Siberry.

Yeah, I know. Kicking myself.

Please giz a shout if you're headed up this way again, camera in hand or no.

[Bikerpunk]

Thanks

This is the event I invited you to assist on, FYI.

Use the BBCode in the second box under the pics to post which one you think looks like Jane Siberry.

(Image Courtesy of Blue Blood)

I have been looking for the pic this reminds me of but with epic FAIL

[Nixon]

most strippers prefer to be called dancers. but when they are blowing you for 20 bucks in the VIP, if they have a choice between being called a stripper or a hooker, they'll take stripper.

Wow, you have some issues.


Portland is a kickass place, where the stripclubs are different than they are anywhere else I've ever worked. They are relaxed, fun, and the line between stripper and customer blurs easily. I think Portland girls are fine with 'stripper' because it's just not a negative word there. And of all the great clubs, Devil's Point is by far the best!

[Morning Glory]

Yes, I do. it's called living in the real world. but hey, ignorance is bliss. I'll leave you back to your candy and rainbows and whatever else you think the sex industry is about.

I'm not trying to be as big of an asshole as I seem. I've known a few strippers that were nice people, and I've known a lot of them that you couldn't trust to let our of your sight. None of them took there work home with them, and they knew that it was just a job, trying to make money off sleazy ass people on both sides.

I just don't see the point in trying to make it seem like it's some cool, feel-good thing, or a party and it certainly is not empowering to the majority of women or men involved.

[ForrestBlack]

Portland is a kickass place, where the stripclubs are different than they are anywhere else I've ever worked. They are relaxed, fun, and the line between stripper and customer blurs easily. I think Portland girls are fine with 'stripper' because it's just not a negative word there. And of all the great clubs, Devil's Point is by far the best!

Yeah, it's tough because it does seem like the term is more acceptable up there, but down here in L.A. it's kinda rude, so the same description comes off as a little more discomforting. The show was interesting (although it was a lot more work than I had been talked into doing) I do like the gallery and stuff. I particularly like the sort of poofy skirts that Rachel made. Those turned out really cool.

[ForrestBlack]

Yes, I do. it's called living in the real world. but hey, ignorance is bliss. I'll leave you back to your candy and rainbows and whatever else you think the sex industry is about.

You seem a bit more grouchy than usual, hope everything is ok.

It's a sunny day

[Morning Glory]

yeah, you are right. I want to say sorry to all you guys and especially Nixon.

I didn't really mean to make this a big thing. I guess I just have mixed feelings about the subject, and I've seen a lot of the shitty side of it. I just think that people should know what they are getting themselves into.

[Bikerpunk]

Be that as it may, you implied that the "exotic entertainers" here are $20 whores, dude.

[One Eyed Cat]

Portland is a relaxing city. I've known (and dated) a number of folks who could be labelled this, that, or the other. Some leave work at work. Some don't. Lot of nuances and degrees of quality in sex-related gigs. I've outlined my own case for legalization. I believe this would stop unnecesary prosecutions and shine light on the actual cases of trafficking and other crimes.

I think we're on to something with this burlesque stuff. It's fun, theatrical, and non-pretentious. It's a bit of salvation from business as usual.

[Bikerpunk]

I think all of us Seattle area folk need to pile into a car, pool gas money, and get the PDX people liquored up to fuck next time they're around.

[One Eyed Cat]

I think all of us Seattle area folk need to pile into a car, pool gas money, and get the PDX people liquored up to fuck next time they're around.

If I end up out there, I'd be game for roadtrips. Don't care one way or the other about the fucking. It happens when it needs to I s'pose.

[VoltaireBlue]

yeah, you are right. I want to say sorry to all you guys and especially Nixon.

and me. that really pissed me off.
I work very hard and put up with assholes(whether it be management or customers) every time I go to work, and I really don't appreciate being called a $20 whore.
yes, there are certainly whores in the industry. even then, what business is it of yours to insult someone like that. I have known several prostitutes. one of them is a close friend.
I accept your appology, but please keep in mind that every BB model works the sex industry just by posing here. your post is offensive on MANY levels.

[VoltaireBlue]

Absolutely fucking MAGNIFICENT.
Best pics of Voltaire I have EVER seen.

The girl who looks like Jane Siberry is cute, too.

that's my friend gwen.

[Amelia G]

and me. that really pissed me off.
I work very hard and put up with assholes(whether it be management or customers) every time I go to work, and I really don't appreciate being called a $20 whore.
yes, there are certainly whores in the industry. even then, what business is it of yours to insult someone like that. I have known several prostitutes. one of them is a close friend.
I accept your appology, but please keep in mind that every BB model works the sex industry just by posing here. your post is offensive on MANY levels.

I really don't think Morning Glory meant what he posted as as harsh as it came off.

I do not think that modeling for Blue Blood means that someone is working in the sex industry. It definitely did not used to and I've gone back to doing almost exclusively content trade, and made a number of adjustments of that sort, because it was always my intention to create art and facilitate self-expression and celebration of sexuality and celebration of lifestyle and celebration of individuality and not to do a sex industry project. I would rather make less money and have it not be like that.

I have worked as a nonsexual escort and, even though no actual sex or nudity took place, I do feel that was a sex industry job. And it felt awfully different.

[Morning Glory]

believe it or not I meant that first post not in seriousness, but merely as a joke. And it was meant as more of a reflection of the attitudes of the customers as much if not more than then workers.

Obviously that was extremely tasteless and personally insulting to people on here.

There's nothing wrong with sex and there's nothing wrong with making an industry out of it. But a lot of people have a lot of issues when it comes to sex and also a lot when it comes to making money, so the two things become complicated very fast. I'm not going to keep talking a whole lot on that subject, but I will just say that I think adding drugs into that mix is a huge part of the complication.

Sure Blue Blood is about sex, there's nothing wrong with that. It can and it should be a part of art and personal identity. It doesn't have to be about objectification and dehumanization and polarization. I think people know and respect that about it. It's also not just about sex, and that's the difference. You could go to any number of sites that are nothing more than porn with people dressed up for the shoot to look "alternative".

I think people know that the BB models are people who are actually interested in "alternative" lifestyles more than just niche marketting, and that is appealing to others who are sincere as well. It's also about many other things. For me, this message board, having a chance to get to know and have intelligent conversations with the people that make BB what it is, is something that means a lot.

[Bikerpunk]

that's my friend gwen.

Adorable, both of you.

[VoltaireBlue]

I really don't think Morning Glory meant what he posted as as harsh as it came off.

I do not think that modeling for Blue Blood means that someone is working in the sex industry. It definitely did not used to and I've gone back to doing almost exclusively content trade, and made a number of adjustments of that sort, because it was always my intention to create art and facilitate self-expression and celebration of sexuality and celebration of lifestyle and celebration of individuality and not to do a sex industry project. I would rather make less money and have it not be like that.

I have worked as a nonsexual escort and, even though no actual sex or nudity took place, I do feel that was a sex industry job. And it felt awfully different.

I didn't mean to go off. it was really early in the morning, and it just really rubbed me wrong and totally set me off. i've been working a lot lately, so it hurt my feelings more than it should have.

[Mindgames]

I do not think that modeling for Blue Blood means that someone is working in the sex industry

Interesting turn of phrase (he says drawing up a couch)...

I agree that by the "new" public perception of the term (meaning prostitution), BB isn't - but by definition the images making up Blueblood's stock-in-trade are marketable because they (and the people in them) are sexually attractive. That's also under the umbrella of "art", but a specific niche of art. For example, (and folks, don't read anything into this) you don't see fat, ugly men in solo sets just because they have original tattoos or political views. If Blueblood is not part of the "sex industry" then what is it part of?

(removes couch...)

Personally I don't see why the term should be anything to avoid - in years gone by it covered a vast range of definitions which would be perfectly acceptable to the most prudish ("so, we're a company who produce credit card billing software for websites...") but the PC media has adopted it to refer specifically to prostitution, as presumably saying "prostitute" on Fox is a Bad Thing, but saying "sex worker" at least implies the person is doing it for the love of capitalism. Why should "sex industry" be something you'd prefer not to be part of?


(passes Voltaire another pack of popsicles)

Your feelings matter. Even when wrongly-provoked, they're part of you and nothing to apologize for.

[Amelia G]

Interesting turn of phrase (he says drawing up a couch)...

I agree that by the "new" public perception of the term (meaning prostitution), BB isn't - but by definition the images making up Blueblood's stock-in-trade are marketable because they (and the people in them) are sexually attractive. That's also under the umbrella of "art", but a specific niche of art. For example, (and folks, don't read anything into this) you don't see fat, ugly men in solo sets just because they have original tattoos or political views. If Blueblood is not part of the "sex industry" then what is it part of?

(removes couch...)

Personally I don't see why the term should be anything to avoid - in years gone by it covered a vast range of definitions which would be perfectly acceptable to the most prudish ("so, we're a company who produce credit card billing software for websites...") but the PC media has adopted it to refer specifically to prostitution, as presumably saying "prostitute" on Fox is a Bad Thing, but saying "sex worker" at least implies the person is doing it for the love of capitalism. Why should "sex industry" be something you'd prefer not to be part of?


(passes Voltaire another pack of popsicles)

Your feelings matter. Even when wrongly-provoked, they're part of you and nothing to apologize for.

Is Dolce & Gabbana part of the sex industry?

[Mindgames]

Is Dolce & Gabbana part of the sex industry?

Is that photograph using sex to sell something? Yes.
Is D&G selling that photograph? No.

So they're making use of an element of the sex industry (male models posing without clothing appropriate for meeting your mother-in-law) but aren't themselves part of it, as their business is selling chemicals. It's not the "sex" part, it's the "industry" part - is a business making significant elements of its trade from the buying or selling of sexually-oriented material, yes or no.

Ford isn't in the sex industry, but has models sitting in their concept cars at the Detroit Motor Show. Everyone at some point uses sex to sell, even if it's a burger-flipper smiling at a customer to get a tip. My criterion for inclusion in "the industry" is that it's your primary business function and not just marketing.

It only matters to be left out if being included is somehow shameful, and I don't see it is. So what if Rachael uses the word "stripper" - it's her right to, and if she's happy with it, why should others take offense by proxy? I have the utmost respect for RR, VB and the rest of the people on here who dance/strip/model/act - they're nicer, more intelligent people than most of the punters who sit and watch, and they're entitled to decide what they want to call their job. It is after all only a job - taking off your PJs in the morning doesn't count as a dance!

To me it smacks of the whole N-word debate - if you call yourself something, it takes the power of the word away from the bigots who'd want to use it as a weapon. So what if someone makes a living from being gorgeous, or from images of people who are? Good luck to them, and be proud of it.

[Amelia G]

Is that photograph using sex to sell something? Yes.
Is D&G selling that photograph? No.

So they're making use of an element of the sex industry (male models posing without clothing appropriate for meeting your mother-in-law) but aren't themselves part of it, as their business is selling chemicals. It's not the "sex" part, it's the "industry" part - is a business making significant elements of its trade from the buying or selling of sexually-oriented material, yes or no.

Ford isn't in the sex industry, but has models sitting in their concept cars at the Detroit Motor Show. Everyone at some point uses sex to sell, even if it's a burger-flipper smiling at a customer to get a tip. My criterion for inclusion in "the industry" is that it's your primary business function and not just marketing.

It only matters to be left out if being included is somehow shameful, and I don't see it is. So what if Rachael uses the word "stripper" - it's her right to, and if she's happy with it, why should others take offense by proxy? I have the utmost respect for RR, VB and the rest of the people on here who dance/strip/model/act - they're nicer, more intelligent people than most of the punters who sit and watch, and they're entitled to decide what they want to call their job. It is after all only a job - taking off your PJs in the morning doesn't count as a dance!

To me it smacks of the whole N-word debate - if you call yourself something, it takes the power of the word away from the bigots who'd want to use it as a weapon. So what if someone makes a living from being gorgeous, or from images of people who are? Good luck to them, and be proud of it.

I absolutely believe it is Rachel's right to use the word stripper if she wants to, whether she is using it sincerely, ironically, punk rockly, or reclaiming terminology.

That said, the fact that some of the people I photograph or Blue Blood publishes are also strippers or dancers or whatever does not make Blue Blood a part of the sex industry any more than the fact that some of the people I photograph and Blue Blood publishes being lawyers makes me part of the legal industry or any more than the fact that some of the people I photograph and Blue Blood publishes being realtors makes me part of the real estate industry.

I do photograph big dudes with original tattoos, although admittedly only if I find them visually interesting and artistically inspiring.

If there is anyone who thinks the only part of Blue Blood which counts are the photographs of good-looking alty girls solo and naked or close to naked, then I quite frankly find that almost disappointing enough to put down my camera for good.

When I photograph couples, despite HUGE pressure from both Porn Valley AND from the models, I shoot people who would have sex off camera too. I constantly receive queries from chicks who want to "do a shoot with _____" and I am well aware that I've pissed some people off by declaring a moratorium on fake lesbian shoots and I am well aware that many site members would enjoy that stuff just fine. But let's just say it is off-message.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure you don't know all the "punters" from Portland strip clubs and, like Nixon said, the lines between strippers and customers are very blurred there. When we went out on the town with Rachel on her night off, she insisted on going to strip clubs as part of the evening's festivities. Is she nice and intelligent when she is shaking her booty, but mean and stupid when she is in the audience?

[Morning Glory]

I think this is a whole different topic, but that's an interesting question. why exactly does sex sell and does it really? I have a hard time believing that anyone thinks wearing Calvin Klein and Victoria's Secret will make them more attractive to a mate. I always kind of figured if someone has got you down to your undies, then you have already done a convincing job of attraction and at that point, you could be wearing fruit of the loom for all it matters, because soon enough it's going to be tossed to the side of the bed.

when you really get down to it all sex sales are marketing and not product placement. strip clubs don't sell sex, they sell drinks. strippers don't sell sex, they sell fantasy. even ladies of the night don't really sell sex, because most of them aren't really having sex, you are having sex, they are just punching a time clock.

[Bikerpunk]

Does sex sell? Indeed. But what, and to who?

Let's take an extreme example: Mr. Rich Gaspari, misogynist Italian-American macho prick (think Andrew Dice Clay with muscles). His "nutrition" company publishes "magazines" devoted to selling vitamin powders. A sample ish is here:

http://www.zinio.com/express3?issue=273042673&ncc=1

He tells a story about dis goil, you see, who he usta fuck (always keep a goil in da bullpen warmin up badda boom badda bing, ohhhhhh!) if he didn't get noone else interested in da clubs. Hot body, redhead, and she was bisexual, if you know what I mean. So I'm in dis treesome wid dese two, and we rocked the Viagra til it just wouldn't work any more. Then he segues into how his arginine powder works rather similarly.If you didn't get the drift, there's a Kelly Bundy in a belly-baring shirt looking like she's taking it up the ass while the ad copy talks about Nitro-Arginine cum explosion giving you muscles in and out of the bedroom to cement the link.

This is to sell vitamins to someone with no self confidence or who wishes to be able to walk up to a chick, flex, and have her riding his jock. In other words, selling virility and power to low self opinion closet cases.

If you look at people who take the elegant tack, it's "buy the Lexus, it screams you have money. Chicks will ride the shit out of your jock." That is for the guy who realises that the true sexy dude is the one with the meathead wiseguy above on his leash, with Egyptian cotton shirts and a dry martini. It's STILL about exuding power, but a different sort of power.

Sex sells to women? HA. Women get sex all the time, or at least offers for it. What the sell to women is is having the man COMMIT to you. Buy the right coffee and he'll sit himself down in your kitchen and never want to leave. Wear the right lipstick, and he'll want you in the sack, giving you leverage - so feel free to plan out him painting the house this weekend.

It's all about INFLUENCE and POWER, whether it's the power to engineer one's life a better way or have influence over others.

Sex is irrelevant. It just happens to be the glue men chase and women have as bargaining power.

[Morning Glory]

I think you may have a point there.

also that made me think of Carl from ATHF.

[Amelia G]

Can we stop calling men who make purchases "punters" and "low self opinion closet cases" because discriminating against men, instead of women, is still sexist and that level of disrespect for the consumer is just a little too heartless and dehumanizing to be cool.

And sexism and disrespect and dehumanizing others is bad, m'kay.

Yes, I agree that different people have different power fantasies and different sex fantasies and different people want different things in general.

[Bikerpunk]

Can we stop calling men who make purchases "punters" and "low self opinion closet cases" because discriminating against men, instead of women, is still sexist and that level of disrespect for the consumer is just a little too heartless and dehumanizing to be cool.

I was not typecasting all men with that comment - just the ones who fall into a certain subsection of gym culture that fall for that bodybuilding/UFC/macho bullshit.

To them, you're a life support system for your cunt, which they simultaneously desire and hate. I feel no qualms about, in this instance, calling a spade a spade. Most men aren't enthralled by that kind of copy, in fact most men find that highly insulting and demeaning on multiple levels.

You've seen my general size, I have seen my share of lifting heavy objects and gyms - and the guys whose eyeballs are glued to the muscle comic books are usually scrawny as fuck and with a chip on their shoulder a mile thick.

I ran very counter to the usual gym types - most of em are military, hardcore Christian or the type above, and rabidly homophobic to boot. You can see how I made few friends...

[One Eyed Cat]

Can we stop calling men who make purchases "punters" and "low self opinion closet cases" because discriminating against men, instead of women, is still sexist and that level of disrespect for the consumer is just a little too heartless and dehumanizing to be cool.

And sexism and disrespect and dehumanizing others is bad, m'kay.

Yes, I agree that different people have different power fantasies and different sex fantasies and different people want different things in general.

Lot of bad seeds pay at strip clubs. I've dated strippers. It doesn't make all men punters/pathetic twits. It is a valid observation for many of them though. Most strippers I've known feel the same about a lot those people.

[Amelia G]

Lot of bad seeds pay at strip clubs. I've dated strippers. It doesn't make all men punters/pathetic twits. It is a valid observation for many of them though. Most strippers I've known feel the same about a lot those people.

But, uhm, the point here is that Portland strip clubs are kind of unusual.

I made the point that they are unusual in my article. The type of event Rachel threw would take place in a non-strip club venue, if it were in most other cities. Hence my humorous surprise.

Nixon made the point that they are unusual in this thread and she has spent a lot of time up there.

I also think that disparaging all sex workers or all customers of sex work is a slippery slope we probably shouldn't go down.

Sometimes retail clerks hate the customers, but that does not mean that every person who walks into Amoeba and buys a CD is a useless asshole. See what I mean?

[Amelia G]

I was not typecasting all men with that comment - just the ones who fall into a certain subsection of gym culture that fall for that bodybuilding/UFC/macho bullshit.

To them, you're a life support system for your cunt, which they simultaneously desire and hate. I feel no qualms about, in this instance, calling a spade a spade. Most men aren't enthralled by that kind of copy, in fact most men find that highly insulting and demeaning on multiple levels.

You've seen my general size, I have seen my share of lifting heavy objects and gyms - and the guys whose eyeballs are glued to the muscle comic books are usually scrawny as fuck and with a chip on their shoulder a mile thick.

I ran very counter to the usual gym types - most of em are military, hardcore Christian or the type above, and rabidly homophobic to boot. You can see how I made few friends...

I might not be familiar with "usual gym types" because, in Los Angeles, most of the hardcore gym types are gay guys. When I manage to drag my ass to the gym, the seriously huge cut guys there are probably 99% gay and entirely out about it. Most gyms I have used outside of Los Angeles don't have a lot of seriously fit people at them.

[One Eyed Cat]

But, uhm, the point here is that Portland strip clubs are kind of unusual.

I made the point that they are unusual in my article. The type of event Rachel threw would take place in a non-strip club venue, if it were in most other cities. Hence my humorous surprise.

Nixon made the point that they are unusual in this thread and she has spent a lot of time up there.

I also think that disparaging all sex workers or all customers of sex work is a slippery slope we probably shouldn't go down.

Sometimes retail clerks hate the customers, but that does not mean that every person who walks into Amoeba and buys a CD is a useless asshole. See what I mean?

Oh just Portland? Yeah, they're usually cool from what I've heard. It's a specific type of scene though. Depends on the audience. Can be unpleasant if you work the wrong venue in cities I've lived in.

[Bikerpunk]

LA has its own gym culture, totally separate from the rest of the world.

And yeah, not a small number of pro guys are gay (or at least gay for pay)- the only ones who've admitted it are Bob Paris, maybe someone else. I also applaud Lee Priest and Arnold Schwarzenegger for making pro-LGBT statements or actions.

But the public front of bodybuilding is macho as fuck. Too bad Gregg Valentino leaked out info about the "afterparties"...

[Mindgames]

I absolutely believe it is Rachel's right to use the word stripper if she wants to, whether she is using it sincerely, ironically, punk rockly, or reclaiming terminology.

That said, the fact that some of the people I photograph or Blue Blood publishes are also strippers or dancers or whatever does not make Blue Blood a part of the sex industry any more than the fact that some of the people I photograph and Blue Blood publishes being lawyers makes me part of the legal industry or any more than the fact that some of the people I photograph and Blue Blood publishes being realtors makes me part of the real estate industry.

That would be a valid argument only if the material Blue Blood published was used to sell subscriptions for legal services or real estate auctions. BlueBlood.com has an obvious core product line - you may personally be a journalist and see your contributions as covering the whole gamut of non-erotic issues too, but to 99% of the people whose credit cards are debited, they are paying for sexy photos. That may not be "all" the BB empire has to offer, but (and call me cynical) I don't see many people buying membership just to read the newswire stories. BB.com's splash page advertises the presence of sex in all it's wonderful forms and labels itself as "BlueBlood.com features beautiful artistic depictions of the eroticism of subculture." - you can't play on the quality and quantity of your erotic content and then say BB isn't selling sex. Fine, so it's selling other stuff too. The gas station at the end of my road sells milk, but according to the sign out front it doesn't make it a dairy farm.

I don't have the slightest problem with what BB does or what you do, but to say that it doesn't trade off sexual imagery is just plain silly.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure you don't know all the "punters" from Portland strip clubs and, like Nixon said, the lines between strippers and customers are very blurred there. When we went out on the town with Rachel on her night off, she insisted on going to strip clubs as part of the evening's festivities. Is she nice and intelligent when she is shaking her booty, but mean and stupid when she is in the audience?

"Punter" is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as "informal: a customer or client" and I'm perfectly entitled to use it in the way it's defined - or maybe you think it's a derogatory generalization of a varied group of people? Like using the word "stripper", perchance?

[Amelia G]

That would be a valid argument only if the material Blue Blood published was used to sell subscriptions for legal services or real estate auctions. BlueBlood.com has an obvious core product line - you may personally be a journalist and see your contributions as covering the whole gamut of non-erotic issues too, but to 99% of the people whose credit cards are debited, they are paying for sexy photos. That may not be "all" the BB empire has to offer, but (and call me cynical) I don't see many people buying membership just to read the newswire stories. BB.com's splash page advertises the presence of sex in all it's wonderful forms and labels itself as "BlueBlood.com features beautiful artistic depictions of the eroticism of subculture." - you can't play on the quality and quantity of your erotic content and then say BB isn't selling sex. Fine, so it's selling other stuff too. The gas station at the end of my road sells milk, but according to the sign out front it doesn't make it a dairy farm.

I don't have the slightest problem with what BB does or what you do, but to say that it doesn't trade off sexual imagery is just plain silly.



"Punter" is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as "informal: a customer or client" and I'm perfectly entitled to use it in the way it's defined - or maybe you think it's a derogatory generalization of a varied group of people? Like using the word "stripper", perchance?

I would generally avoid use of the word stripper in favor of dancer and only used it in this article because I was writing about Portland and quoting Rachel.

Do you think you were using the word punter in a non-derogatory way?

Although I did shoot a cover for SPREAD, I don't find that anything in its pages would be helpful for my business. Hence, I am not in the sex industry.

If I go to an internet professional convention, I go as a professional and often guest speaker.

If I go to a writing convention, I go as a professional and often guest speaker.

If I go to a sex industry convention, I go on a press press. Because I am not in the sex industry, so there is nothing else which would make sense on my badge.

Blue Blood was founded as part of the zine revolution. When I went to zine conventions, I went as a zinester and often guest speaker. The translation of magazine to web, although extremely successful by most measures, is, in my estimation, perhaps imperfect. But I tweak things, as I learn, to keep Blue Blood where it should be and what it should be.

[Mindgames]

I would generally avoid use of the word stripper in favor of dancer and only used it in this article because I was writing about Portland and quoting Rachel.

Do you think you were using the word punter in a non-derogatory way?

Yes - I was referring to the group of people who have paid to sit and watch the show. They're not the customers of the dancer, and similarly some of the people at the bar aren't there to see the show. "Punters" is in that sense a valid collective noun. I don't care if one of them is a circuit judge or a fellow performer - they're watching, therefore they're a punter. Taken on average, the typical members of that group have a well-known demographic - that doesn't stop Albert Einstein being there (apart from the death thing). I like the occasional bit of RnB, but I'm not black. It's entirely valid to say that the vast majority of RnB fans are black - and saying that doesn't make me change color.

To me, a 'stripper' is someone who removes their clothing as part of an act. That's how the dictionary defines it, and what it's always meant, and I don't see it as anything derogatory in the slightest. A 'dancer' is a different term entirely - Margot Fonteyn was a dancer, and so are the people we're talking about on this thread, but you can be one without being the other - you don't need to dance in order to strip, even though it vaguely helps. It's like looking at Obama and thinking "should we call him a black candidate, or a democratic candidate? Which is correct?" - asking the question is the problem, not answering it.

If I go to a sex industry convention, I go on a press press. Because I am not in the sex industry, so there is nothing else which would make sense on my badge.

So what do you think about the myriads of adult websites and CPs who also attend, but don't consider for a moment that they're members of the Press? What does a site have to have (or not have) that makes it fit on the exhibitors list?

[Morning Glory]

But, uhm, the point here is that Portland strip clubs are kind of unusual.

I feel bad because it's pretty much entirely my fault for hijacking this thread. However, I think some of these issues are things that should be discussed by people, certainly by people on BB if they are so inclined, which they seem to be.

But, I'm going to shift gears here, because I want to and that's what I do , and i'm glad that you brought that up because I was actually thinking about that and some of the ideas that I think you originally wanted to bring up in this thread.

So...I think that we talked about this before, but I couldn't find it in a search...Aren't there some clubs in the pac-NW that are owned and operated by the performers, almost like a trade union establishment? that could be a big reason for the different atmosphere, in fact, I'm going to go so far as to say probably a huge reason. I think that kind of approach is totally the right way to go, I know there are others on here that think so too, and I think that would also relieve most of the problems that are associated with other such establishments.